HC Deb 31 July 1877 vol 236 cc253-7

Clauses 7 to 9, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.

Clause 10 (Constitution of Privy Council of the Union).

MR. PARNELL

moved an Amendment, in line 17, that the Privy Councillors to be summoned should not exceed eight in number.

SIR HENRY HOLLAND and MR. WHALLEY

thought it would be undesirable to limit the number as proposed.

MR. BIGGAR

supported the Amendment.

After some discussion,

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. PARNELL (for Mr. O'DONNELL)

proposed to move an Amendment on the clause, which he said he did not exactly understand—which Amendment was, in line 22, after "general," to insert for reasons capable of justification in the Parliament, and another part shall consist of certain ex-officio and representative members, namely, the elected chairmen or speakers, during the term of their office, of the two Houses of the two Houses of the Confederation Parliament, and the elected chairmen or speakers, during the term of their office, of the Provincial Legislative Councils."—(Mr. O'Donnell.)

THE CHAIRMAN

said, it was not respectful to the Committee to move an Amendment which the hon. Member himself did not understand. If he proposed to take up the Amendment of any hon. Member who was not in his place, he should be prepared to explain it.

Amendment moved, line 20, after "Parliament," to insert "half the number to be chosen from the Legislative Council and half from the House of Representatives."—(Mr. Parnell.)

After short discussion,

Amendment negatived.

After some further discussion, Clause amended by omitting the words which directed the Members of the Council to be summoned and chosen "from among the Members of the Union Parliament."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 13, inclusive, agreed to, with verbal Amendments.

Clause 14 (Command of armed forces to be vested in the Queen.)

MR. PARNELL

proposed to insert the following Proviso at end of clause.:— Provided always, That such Forces shall not be used save for the purpose of executing the laws of the Union, suppressing insurrections, and repelling invasions when it is necessary so to use them. He thought such a limitation ought to be provided, and hoped the Government would accept it.

MR. J. LOWTHER

objected to the Amendment.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

thought it would be a great mistake if the Amendment was accepted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

An Amendment moved, to add at end of Clause— To be exercised within the territories of the Union in conformity with the laws of the Union: Providing always, That nothing in this Clause is to be taken as abolishing or diminishing the prerogative of the Crown to provide for the defence of the Empire at large against the foreign enemies of Her Majesty the Queen."— (Mr. Parnell.)

MR. O'DONNELL

supported the Amendment, which he explained was intended to provide against the abuse of power by the Government. The hon. Member was proceeding to argue that the command of the military Force by the Government might readily lead to a collision with the Native races, when—

MR. WHALLEY

rose to Order. He thought the hon. Member was deliberately obstructing the Business of the House. He wished to be informed by the Chairman, whether the hon. Member had not in the letter and the spirit disobeyed his ruling? The hon. Member proceeded to refer to several points, when—

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, that no one was more disorderly than the hon. Member for Peterborough himself when raising points of Order.

THE CHAIRMAN

ruled that the hon. Member for Peterborough was himself out of Order.

MR. O'DONNELL

resumed. He urged the importance of providing that the exercise of military authority should be limited to cases of defence of the Empire against attacks of foreign foes.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, the Amendment contemplated a Colonial policy, contrary to the Imperial policy of this country, which, under the Constitution, was impossible. It was only necessary to state what was the real scope of these Amendments to ensure their being rejected by an enormous majority.

MR. E. JENKINS

said, that practically the Amendment would tie the hands of the colonists in such a way that they would be unable to defend themselves. The whole point, however, was properly dealt with by the 46th clause.

MR. O'DONNELL

said, the hon. and learned Member for Oxford had misrepresented him. What he had said was, that the policy of the Colonies might differ from that of a ruling party at home, as had happened in the case of the American Colonies, when the result was the disruption of the Empire.

MR. PARNELL

said the hon. and learned Member for Oxford ought to know that there were many provisions in this Bill which were opposed to the Constitution of this country.

After some further discussion, Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 15 (Seat of Government).

MR. O'DONNELL

moved to insert in the Clause, which provided that "the seat of Government of the Union shall be such place as the Queen may direct," after the word "place," the words "within the territories of the Union reasonably and freely accessible to the Members of the Union Parliament and other citizens of the Union."

MR. J. LOWTHER

said, he did not think the words could with propriety be inserted. In the selection of a future capital, Her Majesty's Advisers would advise her to select a place which would commend itself to the Colonies generally.

MR. BUTT

thought the Amendment consisted of ignorant words that were an idle mockery.

MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN

warmly protested against the time of the House being trifled with by a discussion of so childish an Amendment. By all means let the Committee discuss any points of principle raised by any hon. Member, but what principle or what sense was there in such an Amendment as that now moved? Of course, the Capital of the Confederation would be in the territories of the Confederation, and, of course, everybody would desire that it should be accessible to the people of the Confederation. Such an Amendment was much as if, in a Bill which provided that an hon. Member should walk from the Table of that House to the door, some one should move that in so doing he should put one foot before the other. It was a mere waste of time to move such Amendments.

Amendment negatived.

MR. E. JENKINS

said, the question of selecting the Capital of the Union should be left to the Colonies themselves. He moved to leave out from the word "the," in line 22, and to insert the words "the Legislatures of the Union may determine," thus giving the Colonies the power of fixing upon the Capital.

Amendment proposed, In page 4, line 22, to leave out from the word "the," to the end of the Clause, in order to insert the words "Legislatures of the Union may determine."—(Mr. Edward Jenkins.)

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

pointed out, that to adopt the Amendment would be to raise at the very inception of the Union an element of strife.

MR. J. LOWTHER

declined to accept the Amendment.

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL

was in favour of retaining the word "Queen" in the clause, deeming it desirable that the influence of this country should be felt so long as the connection between it and the Colonies was maintained.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 204; Noes 6: Majority 198. — (Div. List, No. 271.) [B.M.]

NOES — Burt, T. Kirk, G. H.
Nolan, Captain O'Conor, D.M. Power, J. O'C.
Smith, E.

TELLERS—Mr. Parnell and Mr. O'Donnell.

Clause agreed to.