HC Deb 13 February 1877 vol 232 cc332-7
MR. MOWBRAY

moved the following Resolution:— That, except for a Money Bill, no Order of the Day or Notice of Motion be taken after half-past Twelve of the clock at night, with respect to which Order or Notice of Motion a Notice of Opposition or Amendment shall have been printed on the Notice Paper, or if such Notice of Motion shall only have been given the next previous day of sitting, and objection shall be taken when such Notice is called. The right hon. Gentleman said, the only question in his mind was whether the time had not come for him, as Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee, to ask the House to make it a Standing instead of a Sessional Order. He was content however, this year, to move the Resolution in the same words as the House had previously passed it.

MR. GOLDSMID

, in seconding the Motion, expressed the opinion that the time had arrived when this Rule ought to be made a Standing Order.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That, except for a Money Bill, no Order of the Day or Notice of Motion be taken after half past Twelve of the clock at night, with respect to which Order or Notice of Motion a Notice of Opposition or Amendment shall have been printed on the Notice Paper, or if such Notice of Motion shall only have been given the next previous day of sitting, and objection shall be taken when such Notice is called." — (Mr. Mowbray.)

CAPTAIN NOLAN

, while admitting that there was a great deal to be said in favour of the half-past 12 rule, pointed out that its effect last Session had been practically to put a stop to the Bills of private Members at that hour, without similarly affecting the Government Bills. The present hour, he thought, was too late for the discussion of so important a question, and he begged therefore to move the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." (Captain Nolan.)

MR. C. B. DENISON

drew attention to the way in which Members sometimes put down their Bills day after day and failed to be present when they were called, thereby causing others who were interested in the subject to remain late in the House to no purpose; and he made the suggestion that when a Member had been absent twice consecutively under the circumstances, it should be open to any other Member to move the rejection of the Bill.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he hoped the hon. and gallant Member (Captain Nolan) would not press his Motion for an adjournment. The subject had been repeatedly before the House, and due Notice had been given that it would be brought forward that evening. Moreover, it was only a few minutes after 12 o'clock. He thought there would be a general if not a unani- mous feeling that the Motion of his right hon. Friend, being identical with that Which had been passed for several Sessions, should be adopted again. There were necessarily deficiencies in any Rule of this sort, and they were obliged to depend very much on the general good sense and good feeling of the House. But this half-past 12 rule, as it was called, had come to be very well understood, and, on the whole, he thought it had worked very fairly. One objection he had heard made, and which had certainly sometimes made itself felt, was that occasionally a Member would put down a Notice of Amendment against an Order which was not likely to come on very early, and would nevertheless be absent when the Order was called, and thus leave it blocked in a way which gave rise to much inconvenience. At the same time, it was impossible altogether to avoid inconvenience in matters of this sort, and he thought they ought to trust to the common courtesy of hon. Members and to the general feeling of the House that the object of such regulations was not to stop business, but, as far as possible, to save time. The Rule had, he thought, worked well on the whole, and he hoped, therefore, it would be adopted as it stood.

MR. BUTT

said, that he was sorry he could not agree with those persons who thought that this Rule had worked well. The result was that the House had sat later than it had ever done previously during his experience of its proceedings, and he would oppose the Motion. He agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that they would do better to trust to the good feeling of the House. He had charge of a Bill last year, and, a Gentleman having put a Notice on the Paper, went to Ireland for a month and obstructed during that time the progress of the Bill. Towards the close of the Session they had to enter into a compromise about the Bill different from what the House had assented to. Would the House wish to sanction that sort of thing? There was another result. This struck only at Bills of Irish Members. [Murmurs.] He meant to say of private Members—a phrase he did not like. If he stood alone he should record his vote against the Motion, as he thought this system of restriction objectionable.

MR. HEYGATE

said, that when the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Butt) spoke of trusting to the good feeling of the House he seemed to forget the causes which had led to the original enactment of the rule. It was the result of the inquiries of a Select Committee, composed of all the most experienced Members of the House, in 1871, appointed in consequence of the scandalous (for it was nothing less) scenes which had occurred in previous Sessions, when alternative Motions of Adjournment of the House and of the Debate kept them marching round the Lobbies half the night on more than one occasion. The Committee recommended almost unanimously that no opposed business of any kind should be commenced after 12.30. The rule was accepted in 1872 in its present shape, as modified by Mr. Gladstone, then Prime Minister, and though altered in 1874 at the suggestion of his hon. Friend (Mr. Dillwyn), so strong was the feeling in its favour, that it was restored to its original shape the very next Session by the urgent desire of the majority on both sides of the House. He (Mr. Heygate) had not proposed it this year, as he had hitherto done, because he felt the time was come when it must be made a Standing Order of the House, and he looked upon its proposal now by the Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee, as a step towards that desirable result as it was not expedient that a Rule so necessary for the health of Members and the decorum of their proceedings should be left to the accidental proposal of an individual Member in each Session.

MR. RICHARD SMYTH

said, he thought that in this matter there might almost be said to be involved the persecution of private Members, and the driving of them to distraction. He deprecated the adoption of anything which would further curtail their privileges. He expressed himself decidedly opposed to the Amendment, of which Notice had been given by the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), for the extension of the proposed Rule to Wednesdays in reference to the quarter of an hour before the rising of the House at 6 o'clock.

MR. RAIKES

said, there was good reason why Members should not wish to be kept in the House until half-past 12 o'clock, or it might be until 2 and 3 in the morning, in order to oppose any par- ticular Bill which they regarded as an undesirable measure. A check should be put upon discussion in Committee on unimportant points after half-past 12 o'clock; but it would be the worst mode of arriving at that desirable end if they were to reject this Rule on the present occasion.

SIR CHARLES W. DILKE

strongly advocated a limit being put to the late sittings of the House.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. BIGGAR

moved to omit from the Motion the words "except for a Money Bill." The half-past 12 o'clock Rule was a very salutary one.

Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out the words "except for a Money Bill."—(Mr. Biggar.)

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed, or if carried it might impede the progress of Public Business in the Departments. The Vote for the money was discussed before the introduction of the Bill.

MR. BUTT

said, this Rule would not apply to Money Bills. They were merely matters of form. He hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.

MR. W. H. SMITH

opposed the Amendment. It was essential that after money had been voted the Bills appropriating it should be passed as speedily as possible.

MR. BIGGAR

said that, at the suggestion of "our leader, the hon. and learned Member for Limerick," he would withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed, At the end of the Question to add the words "and that the same rule shall be adopted on Wednesdays after a quarter to Six of the clock, and on other days, when the House meets at Two of the clock p.m. after ten minutes to Seven of the clock."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

opposed the Amendment, on the ground that it would make the Rule unnecessarily strict.

MR. CHARLEY

also opposed the Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 185: Majority 153.

Main Question put.

The House divided:—Ayes 185; Noes 23: Majority 162. Resolved, That, except for a Money Bill, no Order of the Day or Notice of Motion be taken after half-past Twelve of the clock at night, with respect to which Order or Notice of Motion a Notice of Opposition or Amendment shall have been printed on the Notice Paper, or if such Notice of Motion shall only have been given the next previous day of sitting, and objection shall be taken when such Notice is called.