[BILLS 4–124.] COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 3 August 1877)

§ Mr. M'LAREN
begged to suggest an Amendment to which he should like to call the attention of the Lord Advocate and the Home Secretary. There were three Commissioners to be appointed, one by the Crown, and the other two to be ex-officio Commissioners. The two Commissioners appointed by the Crown were to be retained, and one of the Commissioners was also to be retained, who was the Crown agent. There would be, three paid officers, and the only unpaid officer would be the sheriff. Now, his Amendment was that, in addition to the sheriff of Perth, the sheriff of Mid-Lothian should be appointed, and he proposed this for two reasons. The sheriff of Mid-Lothian had always been included in Acts of Parliament as the chief man, although the sheriff of Perth was just now on the Prison Board. The reason why he was on the Board was that there was a prison at Perth for Government prisoners, and nothing was more natural than that under the old system the sheriff of Perth should be on the Board. It was then the only prison in Scotland in charge of the Government. Under this Bill all the prisons in Scotland were placed under the charge of the Government, and there was no reason why the sheriff of Perth should have any pre-eminence. The county of Mid-Lothian was far more populous than the county of Perth, and while the county of Mid-Lothian was increasing in population, the county of Perth was decreasing, and had been decreasing for many years. He should wish the sheriff of Mid-Lothian to go along with him. He thought it was only right as a matter of arrangement to have another neutral man on the Board; and he begged therefore to move, in page 3, line 2, after "of," to insert "Mid-Lothian, and the sheriffs of the county of."

The LORD ADVOCATE
said, it was deemed expedient that the new Board 418 of Commissioners should be composed of not more than three paid officials and two ex-officio officials, and he thought it right that the sheriff of Perth should be continued in the same position as heretofore, instead of appointing to the office the sheriff of Lanarkshire or the sheriff of Mid-Lothian. The sheriff of Perth, since the passing of the Act of 1860 had been one of the general managers of the prisons in Scotland. The convict prison at Perth had been more especially under his charge, but he had also the general superintendence of all prisons in Scotland. He would continue to report annually to the Secretary of State, not only on the prison of Perth, but on the prisons of Scotland. He did not see, therefore, why he should be deprived of office. No doubt the county of Mid-Lothian was increasing in population; but the kind of population prison managers had to look after was much more numerous in Perth than in Lanarkshire or Mid-Lothian. The time of the sheriffs of Lanarkshire and Mid-Lothian was occupied largely in judicial business, and they had no time to do the administrative work that was done by the sheriff of Perth, where the prison contained from 900 to 1,200 prisoners.

§ Mr. M'LAREN
said, the sheriff of Perth did not take charge of the prisoners. The sheriff of Perth might live next door to the sheriff of Edinburgh, and was in no sense or way connected by residence with the county of Perth, except in name. He did not wish the sheriff of Perth to be superseded, but the sheriff of Mid-Lothian to be added.

§ Mr. REDMOND
moved in page 3, line 32, to leave out from "prisons," to "such," in line 33. The Secretary of State had power to appoint the chaplains under this Bill, but these must be ministers of the Church of Scotland—that was, of one denomination, notwithstanding that the prisoners might be in considerable numbers of other denominations. He proposed that the Secretary of State should not be precluded from appointing Roman Catholic chaplains in those prisons in 419 which Roman Catholic prisoners were confined, or from making like provision for people of Episcopalian, Free Church, or any other persuasion. The number of Roman Catholic prisoners in the prisons in Scotland was unfortunately considerable—about a third, it appeared. The number of Irish, mostly of the labouring classes, in Scotland was about a fourth of a million. Many of them were relieved from the restraints and influences of home, and were exposed for the first time to the temptations of large cities. In these circumstances it was not only a measure of fairness, but of economy, to use every influence they could bring to bear upon them, especially of a religious kind, in order to prevent them again becoming chargeable on the country. He did not mean to reproach the Government, or to make any charge of intolerance against the authorities of Scotland; but he thought the fact must be admitted that at present the provision for the Roman Catholic prisoners in Scotland was inadequate. He compared this state of things with the equal provision made in Ireland for Roman Catholic and Protestant prisoners alike, and concluded by hoping the Lord Advocate would consent to the Amendment.

The LORD ADVOCATE
said, the object of the Bill was to maintain the similarity between the laws of England and Scotland. After the Act passed, the administration of the law would be entrusted to the Home Secretary, instead of being vested in the Local Board. As to the religious services, the Home Secretary at present had no control over the matter; but the clause in question was inserted in the Bill because in order to get rid of a certain complication it was thought proper to repeal the Act of 1860, which at present regulated the administration of the prisons in Scotland. It was necessary, having repealed that, to re-enact certain of its provisions, which it was thought desirable to retain. The second clause of Section 10 of the Bill was precisely the same thing as that which was contained in Section 15 of the English Act. The law of the two countries would be made precisely the same. He trusted that this explanation would be satisfactory, and that an Amendment would not be introduced into the Bill making the law of Scotland different from that of England.

§ Mr. M'LAREN
thought that the Scotch Members had a right to complain of the Government discussing a clause to change what had been the practice in Scotland from time immemorial, after 1 o'clock in the morning, when there were only 12 Scotch Members in the House. If the matter was to be gone into, it would be much better to report Progress now, and to proceed with the measure when the House was fuller. If the Home Secretary was to exercise the authority which it was now proposed to confer on him under the Act, it would excite an amount of hostility in Scotland, of which the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary could have no conception. He (Mr. M'Laren) had heard a Question asked the other day with regard to Roman Catholics chaplains; but the Home Secretary in reply did not commit himself. He (Mr. M'Laren) could have supplemented the information given if the Forms of the House would have allowed it. There had been entire freedom to visit prisoners in Scotland. The proposal now made implied that the Roman Catholic priests would not take the trouble to look after their co-religionists who were in prison unless they were paid for it. He would remind the Committee that the Presbyterian dissenters had never sought such a thing as a paid prison chaplain.

Mr. ASSHETON GROSS
hoped the discussion would not continue, for the reason that it was at present unnecessary. The Bill before the Committee was simply re-enacting the law of 1863.

§ Mr. M'CARTHY DOWNING
supported the Amendment.

The LORD ADVOCATE
pointed out that under a general clause there were powers giving the Home Secretary to appoint all prison officers according to the Act of 1860.

§ Mr. CALLAN
agreed with the hon. Member for Edinburgh that this hour of the night was not the proper one to discuss this question, and moved to report Progress.

Mr. ASSHETON GROSS
hoped the Motion would not be persisted in. The law in Scotland was precisely the same as in England. Being Protestant countries the chaplain appointed would be a member of the Established Church, but there was a power of appointment of others.

§ Mr. LEITH
(for Mr. LAING) moved in Clause 23, page 10, line 21, add— Provided, That having regard to the exceptional circumstances of Orkney and Zetland, these counties shall as regards the prisons just built or being built at Kirkwall and Lerwick be entiled to borrow from the Public Works Loan Commissioners the amounts expended by them in the erection and furnishing of such prisons, as if the said amounts had been moneys authorised to be borrowed by the commissioners of supply of the said counties for the purposes of this Act.