MR. SULLIVANMr. Speaker—Sir, with considerable regret, I have to mention to you an incident that took place in the Lobby within the last two minutes. While passing through the Lobby the hon. Member for Stoke came up to me—he never spoke to me before, and I have never spoken to him. He told me that I had made an unprovoked attack upon him, that he 952 had made none upon me, and that it was an hon. Member of this House near me whom he had referred to. I did not want to engage in any controversy with the hon. Member, and I simply said —drawing away—"Sir, anything I have said in my place in the House was deserved." He replied—"Sir, you are a liar"—in the hearing of the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone (Mr. Forsyth), and two or three other Members of this House. Now, Sir, had that been uttered to me outside the House by the same Gentleman, I should have taken not the slightest notice of it—and, unless it be thought that I am bound to vindicate the honour of this Assembly, I would wish not to take notice of it now. But I refer it to you, Sir, entirely in the sense that I am bound to take care that the independence of this Assembly, collectively and individually, must be maintained, and that freedom of speech on this floor ought to be vindicated. I wish to lay this matter before you, if any notice be taken of it. Personally, I despise it —but, placing aside any consideration for me, as personally I seek no interference or protection, I only wish you, Sir, to do whatever becomes the dignity of this House.
§ MR. SPEAKERIf such an expression as that stated by the hon. Member for Louth had been made within my hearing in this House of course it would have been my duty at once to interpose, on my own authority. The expression, however, was used in the Lobby, and it will be for the House to determine what course to take under the circumstances. The hon. Member for Louth has, it appears to me, done quite right in bringing the matter under the notice of the House; and I think, following the ordinary course in cases of this kind, it becomes my duty to call upon the hon. Member for Stoke that he may be heard by the House in explanation of the statement made by the hon. Member for Louth.
§ DR. KENEALYMr. Speaker—When I found myself in the Lobby I heard the hon. Member for Louth repeating to some persons around him the words "coward," "slave." I went up to him, and said—"Mr. Sullivan, I can assure you that your attack upon me, or your observations about me, were entirely undeserved and unprovoked. I did not mean to allude to you in any way whatever; I made no allusion to 953 you, but to another hon. Member. And as I had not the slightest reason to think that any hostility was exhibited by you, so I certainly did not mean to refer to you at all." The hon. Member for Louth seemed to pause for a moment, apparently meditating and considering what he should say, and at the end of that time, he said—"All that I said was deserved." In the speech which he made in this House the hon. Member for Louth had implied that I was a liar; he had called me "a slave," and had several times called me "a wretch." Although I was not specifically named by him, yet no one could doubt to whom he referred. Therefore, I said, bearing in mind that he had so designated me—"You are a liar." I now place myself in the hands of the House, and if the House thinks I have done wrong I will apologize to it; but, at the same time, I appeal to the hon. Members of this House, who are men of honour, to consider this matter without reference to the prejudice which the hon. Member has sought to raise against me in a speech which was utterly undeserved and unprovoked by me, and I appeal to them whether, under the circumstances, I was not justified in using the expression. If they think I was not justified, and that I had no provocation, and that I am to sit down philosophically bearing the reproach of the hon. Member for Louth, I will do so, and I am ready to comply with any order which the House may make.—And then left the House.
§ MR. SPEAKERWith reference to what has passed, it is right that I should state at once to the House, with respect to the allegation of the hon. Member for Stoke that he was charged with being "a wretch," or words of that kind, by the hon. Member for Louth that if any expression of that kind had been used by one Member of this House with respect to another Member, in the House itself, it would have been my duty to interpose. The question now before the House narrows itself to this one point. It is admitted by the hon. Member for Stoke that he used the expression in the Lobby to the hon. Member for Louth that he was "a liar." It is for the House to determine whether that observation should be withdrawn by the hon. Member for Stoke. If it had happened within the House, it would, of course, have been my duty at once to call upon him to 954 withdraw the expression. It may be convenient to the House that I should point out a precedent which has some bearing upon this matter—
On the 8th of June, 1852, complaint being made to the House by a Member in his place that another Member had been guilty of misbehaviour towards him, Mr. Speaker informed him that if he persisted in such conduct it would be necessary for him to call the particular attention of the House towards him, in order that the House might take such steps as would prevent the repetition of it in future. Upon which the Member rose in his place, and addressed the House, expressing his regret for what had occurred."—[See 3 Hansard, cxxii. 274.]That is very much what has happened upon the present occasion. Then the matter was left to be dealt with by the House. It will now be for the House to take such a course with reference to the conduct of the hon. Member for Stoke as it shall think necessary.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERAs I was one of the Members present during the discussion which has led to this occurrence, I think I may venture to express an opinion. It really is a very easy and clear matter that is before the House. It is this—whether we should consider that language used in the Lobby such as would immediately call for your repression in the House—and in which the House would support you—should be permitted in the Lobby because it happens to be the Lobby and not the body of the House? I understand there is no doubt whatever about the facts. The hon. Member for Stoke has not disputed that he thought fit to use the expression which we have heard to my hon. Friend the Member for Louth; and I understand the hon. Member for Stoke to have said before he left the House that if, in the opinion of the House, that expression ought not to have been used, he was willing to withdraw it. I understand that to be his statement, and therefore we might very well end this somewhat disagreeable occurrence. If it be necessary to put it in the form of a Motion I will move—"That, in the opinion of this House, the hon. Member for Stoke be required to withdraw the expression which he used—" [Cries of "No, no!" "Order!"] If hon. Members will allow me to finish the sentence" that he should withdraw the expression, and apologise for having used it." I beg, therefore, Sir, to make that Motion.
MR. ASSHETON CROSSI am very sorry that my right hon. Friends and myself were not present, owing to a Cabinet Council, which has only just this moment broken up, having kept me away from the House; but having heard from hon. Members who were sitting on this bench what has taken place, having had communication with the first Authority in the House, and having listened to what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, I beg to second the Motion he has made.
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERI do not know whether I put my Motion exactly in the form in which it ought to be put, and whether it ought not to be added that you, Sir, be requested to call upon the hon. Member for Stoke to take that course.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe following terms will probably carry out the views of the right hon. Gentleman:—
That the honourable Member for Stoke be ordered to withdraw the offensive expression addressed by him, in the Lobby, to the honourable Member for Louth, and to apologise to the House for having used it.Resolved, That the honourable Member for Stoke be ordered to withdraw the offensive expression addressed by him, in the Lobby, to the honourable Member for Louth, and to apologise to the House for having used it.—(Mr. William Edward Forster.)
§ MR. SPEAKERIs it the wish of the Members of the House that the hon. Member for Stoke be called in? ["Hear, hear!"] Sergeant, let the hon. Member for Stoke be called in.
§ DR. KENEALYhaving accordingly entered the House—
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Member for Stoke will take his seat. The House has come to the following Resolution:—and
§ MR. SPEAKER,having acquainted the hon. Member with the Resolution of the House—
§ DR. KENEALYIn compliance with the Order of the House I withdraw the offensive expression used in the Lobby, and I apologise to the House for having used it.
The following is the entry in the Votes:—
On the numbers being declared, Complaint was made to the House by Mr. Sullivan, Member for the County of Louth, of an offensive expression addressed to him by Dr. Kenealy, Member for the Borough of Stoke, in the Lobby, during the Division just taken:—956Mr. Speaker observed, that had the expression complained of been used in the House, it would have been his duty to deal with the matter on his own authority; but as the complaint referred to words used in the Lobby, he left it to the consideration of the House: and Mr. Speaker called upon Dr. Kenealy to explain his conduct.Dr. Kenealy was heard in his place; and, having admitted that he had used the expression complained of, desired to submit his conduct to the decision of the House; after which he withdrew:—Resolved, That the honourable Member for Stoke be ordered to withdraw the offensive expression addressed by him, in the Lobby, to the honourable Member for Louth, and to apologise to the House for having used it.—(Mr. William Edward Forster.)Dr. Kenealy being called in, Mr. Speaker acquainted him with the Resolution of the House.Dr. Kenealy thereupon withdrew the offensive expression complained of, and apologised to the House for having used it.