HC Deb 21 May 1875 vol 224 cc757-77

(1.) £25,707, to complete the sum for Royal Palaces.

MR. ADAM

asked for some explanation with regard to the accounts in connection with the Vote under consideration? There appeared to have been some change in the course of proceeding this year in respect to the Commissioner of Works, the accounting officer being the Secretary to the Commission.

MR. W. H. SMITH

replied that there had been no real alteration. The Public Accounts Committee of 1871 laid it down distinctly that a particular person should be made responsible for the accounts of each Department, and that principle had been acted upon by the late Government, by a Treasury Minute in 1873.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

complained of the way in which this Estimate had been presented to the Committee. In this one Estimate the principal officer under the First Commissioner had been selected to account for the expenditure, whereas in all the other Departments, either the head of the office, or a subordinate of lower position had been named as the accounting officer. It was opening a great cause of difference to vest in the principal officer the accounting duties. It gave the party a right to exercise an independence of his chief, calculated to lead to differences; but it was gravely objectionable in a financial point of view to confide to the head executive officer the combination of duties which made him responsible for the right execution of his Chief's orders and the power of recording their results; the best means a Chief could use for seeing to the right fulfilment of orders was the financial record by a separate officer of the effect of the orders. He would also take this opportunity to urge that some explanation ought to be given as to how the lodges in the Royal Parks had been disposed of.

MR. DILLWYN

thought some superior officer of the Government ought to account to the House for the manner in which the money was spent.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, he would not enter into any details as to the motives which led his hon. Friend the Secretary of the Treasury to adopt the regulation laid down by the late Government; but in order to ease the minds of his hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Sir George Balfour) and the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn), he would inform them at once, that if he were not absolutely responsible to the House of Commons for the Votes in Class I. of the Civil Service Estimates he should not now be sitting on that bench, and should not insult the Committee by proposing the Votes.

MR. DILLWYN

said, that at the accession of Her Majesty, the Royal Parks and Palaces were, with few exceptions, made over to the State. In July, 1861, it was stated that a right was reserved to bestow the lodges in the Parks upon persons for distinguished services, and he would like to know whether the Duc d'Aumale occupied the lodge in Bushey Park, and also who was ranger of Greenwich Park and who occupied the lodge there, and what distinguished services those who occupied those lodges had rendered to the nation?

MR. MELLOR

desired to know whether it was true that the Master of the Horse let the whole of the grazing in Bushey Park, and that the rent was a perquisite of his own?

DR. LUSH

asked, whether a portion of the roadway opposite Clarence House had been taken away entirely from the use of the public. If so, by whose authority it had been done?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

replied, that Bushey Park was occupied not by the Duc d'Aumale, but by Lord Alfred Paget, Clerk-Marshal to the Queen, and a very old servant of the Crown. As to the Sanger's Lodge at Blackheath, it was now unoccupied, but Her Majesty had allowed Prince Arthur to reside there for a few months while he was discharging his military duties. The cost to the country of the maintenance of that Lodge was extremely trifling. The grazing at Bushey Park was not considered as a perquisite of the Master of the Horse, who had to pay a rental for it, and he trusted the absolute amount of the rent both at Hampton Court and Bushey would shortly be settled. The new Master of the Horse had not been anxious to give up that which the old Master of the Horse had occupied for so long a time rent free. It was, however, decided about six weeks before the present Government came into office that the Office of Works had a right to obtain the amount from the Master of the Horse. Negotiations were still pending between himself and the Earl of Bradford on the subject. He thought that there must be a wrong impression in reference to the alterations made near Clarence House, as he understood that the pavement which used to run under the alcove had simply been removed to the other side of the road. This was all that had been done. When the Duke of Edinburgh's marriage was announced, it was found that the accommodation at Clarence House was absolutely insufficient to enable him to bring his Imperial bride there. The alterations had been made exclusively at the expense of His Royal Highness, and therefore he thought they could not object to the alterations.

MR. WHITWELL

asked, whether the Master of the Horse would in the new arrangements pay up the arrears of rental for the grazing of Bushey Park?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that that would form a very important part of the arrangement.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he understood that Prince Arthur occupied the Lodge at Greenwich for more than a few months?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

explained that His Royal Highness had occupied it for two years, while he was studying his military duties.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £92,467, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens.

MR. DILLWYN

moved to reduce the Vote by £2,431, on the ground that no reason had been assigned in the Estimates for an increase in that amount over and above of last year. The Parks were for the ornamentation of the metropolis, unremunerative and not required for the public service and any increase in the Estimates on account of them ought to be carefully watched.

MR. ANDERSON

inquired where the Albert Road and the Longford River Parks were situated? His education had been so sadly neglected that he did not know anything about them.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

, in reply, said, he hoped the Committee, after his explanation, would not think there was any necessity for a division upon the question. In these days, when the facilities for travelling were so great, the beauty of the Parks in the neighbourhood of the metropolis was frequently enjoyed by a large number of persons who resided in the country as well as by Londoners. The extra sums required this year under the Vote were for keeping the Serpentine clear of weeds, so as to prevent it from being blocked and the fish from being destroyed; for maintaining the Albert Memorial; for replacing the rotten fencing round Bushey Park; for paying the salary of an assistant to Dr. Hooker at Kew Gardens, and for planting shrubs in the neighbourhood of the lake in Victoria Park, in order to extend the facilities for bathing. He regretted that he could not inform the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) where the Parks to which he referred were situated; but had the hon. Member given him Notice of his intention to make the inquiry, he would have taken care to have been furnished with full information on the subject.

MR. ANDERSON

was surprised at the statement of the noble Lord. Here was a park which cost the country £ 1,143 a-year, and the noble Lord confessed he did not know where it was. Then there was another which cost £559, and he never tried to answer the question which had been put to him.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, if the hon. Member noticed the innumerable number of items that were in the list, he would not be surprised at his not being able to give satisfactory answers in regard to everyone of them off-hand.

MR. DILLWYN

said, that he had objected to items of increase only where no explanation was offered, and it was on that account he should press his Motion to a division. He complained of the increased expenditure for the Parks, and, though he enjoyed visiting them, he thought the growing expenditure must stop somewhere.

MR. MONK

understood that the Serpentine was cleansed last year and paid for, and asked whether the sum now required was for completing the work?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that the money now asked for was for the rest of the Serpentine, which would be cleansed this year.

Motion made, and Question put, That a sum, not exceeding £90,036, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)

The Committee divided:—Ayes 15; Noes 53: Majority 38.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £116,130, he granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Maintenance and Repair of Public Buildings; for providing the necessary supply of Water; for Rents of Houses hired for the temporary accommodation of Public Departments, and Charges attendant thereon.

MR. COWAN

, in moving the reduction of the Vote by £500, said, his object was to call attention to a Vote of that amount which he thought should be included for the restoration of St. Giles' Cathedral, Edinburgh. He explained that the cathedral having fallen into such a state of disrepair that it was fit neither for religious services nor for the reception of Her Majesty's Commissioners to the General Assembly, a committee was formed, which carried out a scheme of restoration at a cost of over £4,000. The Committee was at a further expense of £1,500 for fitting up a Royal pew and other alterations, and it was understood that the Government had agreed to pay £1,000, subsequently, however, they reduced it to £500, and he was at a loss to know why they did so. For the purpose of explanation, he would move the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £500.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £115,630, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Maintenance and Repair of Public Buildings; for providing the necessary supply of Water; for Rents of Houses hired for the temporary accommodation of Public Departments, and Charges attendant thereon."—(Mr. Cowan.)

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

pointed out that the hon. Member was moving to reduce the Vote in respect of an item which did not this year appear in the Vote.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, it was quite competent for the hon. Member to move for a reduction of the Vote; but that, at the same time, the observation of the hon. Member who had just spoken was equally to the point.

MR. COWAN

said, he only wished to urge upon the Government that the contribution of £500 was too small, seeing that St. Giles's Cathedral Church contained the pew that had been occupied by the Scottish Kings, and which was still occupied by the Representatives of Royalty at the General Assemblies.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, he understood the hon. Member to move that the Vote be reduced by £500, because it was not £500 more. He need not point out that if the hon. Member succeeded in his Motion, he would not advance the object he had in view, as the Treasury would have £500 less, instead of £500 more, to dispose of. The demand made by the hon. Member had been most anxiously considered, not only by his noble Friend, who was most desirous that a further grant should be made, but by the Treasury; and they found when they had to consider the whole question that they had to deal with it in the light of the action of the past Government. His right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Adam) sent a recommendation in 1874, to the effect that a grant should be made towards the restoration of St. Giles' Cathedral, and in his Memorandum he stated that the sum asked was too high, and that it seemed to him £500 would be a fair and sufficient contribution. That sum had been paid, and as their Predecessors thought it a fair and sufficient contribution, the present Government did not see that they were justified in increasing it. It was right to add that the Crown was in no way responsible for the work which had been carried out. It was undertaken by the Committee, without any notice of the estimated cost, and after the work had been done an application was made to the Government to bear the cost.

MR. ADAM

said, what the Secretary of the Treasury had stated was perfectly correct. The late Government were asked to contribute towards the restoration of St. Giles', the work in connection with which had been most efficiently done by the town council and subscriptions. The matter was brought before him when he was Commissioner of Works, and although he was quite of opinion that, strictly speaking, the Board of Works were not bound in any way to subscribe, still as it appeared that a very great work had been done most efficiently, and at considerable cost; and further, considering that in the cathedral there were Royal pews and pews for the Judges, he thought it would only be fair that the Government should give some subscription, and he therefore prevailed upon the Government to allow this sum, though he must say that, as a good deal of extra money had been spent, if the Treasury could see their way to a further additional subscription, he should not feel in a position to oppose them.

MR. COWAN

said, he would not divide the House, but he really hoped the Government would again look into the matter.

MR. MONK

asked for explanations of the increase of the item for painting and maintaining Westminster Bridge, which was £4,695, against £2,136 last year?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that every three years it was necessary to paint the bridge, and this was the triennial occasion on which the Vote exhibited an increase.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(4.) £13,400, to complete the sum for the Furniture of Public Offices.

MR. ANDERSON

thought the details of the Estimate ought to be given.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, the Estimate included the supply of furniture as well as the general repair.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £25,646, to complete the sum for the Buildings of the Houses of Parliament.

MR. MONK

asked why there was an increase of £500 in the Vote for the Police for guarding the two Houses?

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

objected to the principle on which the House was ventilated. The air came through the matting of the floor, and hence Members breathed the dust brought in by their boots. The air was no doubt cool in hot weather, but the coolness was produced by means of ice. Now, he did not regard it as conducive to health to breathe air that had been forced through ice. There was no ventilation, in his opinion, so good as that produced by opening the windows.

MR. SULLIVAN

bore testimony to the admirable, scientific, yet simple and most effective manner in which the House was ventilated. The atmosphere of the House was as pure as science could make it. He hoped that no one would be moved by antediluvian ideas to disturb arrangements which might be pronounced perfect.

MR. DALRYMPLE

observed, that however admirable the arrangement might be, it very often failed of its effect. Last summer he found that the thermometer behind the Speaker's Chair stood at 80° at 2 o'clock in the morning.

MR. ADAM

inquired when the picture by Mr. Herbert, now in progress, was likely to be finished, and what had been the result of the recent efforts made to preserve the frescoes from destruction?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

, in reply to the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Monk), said, last year a sum of £500 had been left out of the Estimates by mistake, and the addition of that sum to the present Estimate had therefore become necessary. With regard to the ventilation of the House, he thanked the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) for his prompt defence of Dr. Percy's admirable process. Nothing in the world was absolute perfection; but anyone who attended the House during a Morning Sitting, and came down again at a quarter to 9 o'clock to find the House as fresh as if there had been no Morning Sitting, must admit that it would be difficult indeed to improve the ventilation. In answer to the questions of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Adam), he begged to state that Mr. Herbert's painting in the Peers' Robing Room would be completed in the course of the summer. With regard to the frescoes, his noble Friend (Lord Hardinge), and that very distinguished artist Mr. Richmond, with Mr. Ward, had been endeavouring to save those works of art from destruction. When the House broke up last Session, it was found that some portions of those frescoes were so utterly obscured that it was feared it would be impossible to restore them. A process was suggested by Mr. Richmond which was of a most simple character, and on his responsibility he allowed it to be tried. Mr. Richmond, with great public spirit, gave up the whole of his valuable time to superintend the work, and he believed the result had been pronounced on all hands an eminent success. With regard to the other frescoes, Lord Hardinge and the gentlemen he had named had undertaken to see if anything could be done to restore them; but he feared that those, especially, in the Committee Lobby were in such a deplorable condition that nothing could be done but to leave them to decay.

MR. ANDERSON

asked when the house in Spring Gardens recently occupied by Sir John Lefevre would be vacated?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

believed the premises would be given up in October next.

COLONEL BARTTELOT

called attention to the monstrous charge—£340—for planting the gardens in Parliament Square. He would undertake to have it done for £40 or £50.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

had no doubt it might have been done at a cheaper rate; but the question was, would it have been done so well? It would be a great pity not to have those beautiful beds properly planted.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) £19,160, to complete the sum for the New Home and Colonial Offices.

MR. WHITWELL

inquired when the new offices would be occupied?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that on the 1st of July the Home Secretary would commence his migration from his present offices to the new buildings.

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

thought the new buildings overcharged with sculpture not very well executed. He had no hesitation in saying that the new offices would have looked much handsomer without so much ornamentation.

Vote agreed, to.

(7.) £12,376, to complete the sum for Sheriff Court Houses, Scotland.

(8.) £11,809, to complete the sum for the National Gallery Enlargement.

(9.) £2,590, to complete the sum for Burlington House.

(10.) £134,000, to complete the sum for Post Office and Inland Revenue Buildings.

(11.) £8,038, to complete the sum for the British Museum Buildings.

MR. SULLIVAN

complained of the length of time readers were kept waiting for books in the Reading Room owing to the deficiency in the number of attendants. He had been kept waiting more than an hour for a work, and he found many others who were put to like inconvenience. He was inclined to move the postponement of the Vote until the matter had been inquired into.

MR. GOLDNEY

suggested that the space required for the Museum purposes, which was the great difficulty, could be gained if some of the officers had residences elsewhere. It was not necessary that they should live on the Museum premises.

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

repeated the complaint made as to the length of time readers were kept waiting for books in the Reading Room, and trusted the Government would look into the question.

CAPTAIN NOLAN

complained that Parliamentary Papers were not to be had at the Reading Room until they were a year old.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, he had not only in his official capacity, but as one of the Trustees of the British Museum, the pleasure of informing the House that the addition of several attendants in the Reading Room had been sanctioned by the Treasury; but with regard to the proposal to change the place of residence of the officials, he would not offer an opinion, but must refer the matter to his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole) as one of the Trustees. The whole question would have been more properly raised on the Vote for the Establishment.

MR. SPENCER WALPOLE

said, that, considering the value of the collections, the Trustees believed it essential that official residences should be on the site of the Museum itself, so that responsible persons might be on the spot to render service in case of fire or accident. With regard to the delay in obtaining books, nothing was more important than that the best attention should be given to readers, and that they should get what they wanted within a reasonable time. It appeared upon the last investigation of the matter, that the average time they were kept waiting did not exceed 20 minutes, and, in cases where gentlemen were kept longer, it was possible that delay was occasioned by the fact that they did not give in the proper references.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) £33,980, to complete the sum for County Courts Buildings.

(13.) £8,006, to complete the sum for the Science and Art Department Buildings.

MR. SANDFORD

wished for some explanation as to this Vote, on which he observed that there was an increase of 60 per cent as compared with a former Vote for the same purpose?

LORD HENRY LENNOX

explained that one great object of the Vote was to provide for the payment of the re-laying of the Mosaic pavement.

MR. DILLWYN

said, that since the commencement of the South Kensington Museum, the total expenditure upon the building and its contents had been £1,191,709. He thought it was high time they should have some assurance that this expenditure would come to a stop.

MR. SULLIVAN

said, he had to complain that the managers of this Museum were crowding its cellars with valuable works of art, instead of placing them at the disposal and for the inspection of young artists throughout the country, who would by their study of them not only improve themselves, but the nation generally. Liverpool and other large towns ought to have the collections which it contained distributed amongst them.

Vote agreed to.

(14.) £111,300, to complete the sum for Surveys of the United Kingdom.

COLONEL BARTTELOT

said, that this was a most important work, but it was absolutely necessary that it should be pushed on faster than it now went, particularly in the southern counties. They had already spent £71,248 upon it, and he believed that if those who had charge of it looked after the work sharply, much more might be done. He suggested to his noble Friend the Chief Commissioner of Works that if those engaged on it were paid by the acre, instead of so much per day, it would proceed more rapidly and the country get more work for its money. The Survey would be, when completed, a great national benefit; the maps already turned out were perfectly beautiful and most valuable, and it was therefore of the utmost consequence that it should be completed as soon as possible. He wished to know from his noble Friend what further time it would take to complete it, and what counties were now unsurveyed?

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

asked why the Survey of North Wales had been suddenly put a stop to about a year ago? Denbighshire and Flintshire had been surveyed, but when half Merionethshire had been surveyed, the men were ordered away to Staffordshire. Great discontent and disappointment had arisen in consequence, and he concurred with the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had just sat down that the work was most valuable, and that it was desirable for the interests of the country to have it completed as soon as possible. They had an officer of the Royal Engineers at the head of the Survey who, no doubt, was perfectly capable of performing the duty, but he thought the mode in which it was now carried on might be improved. He did not, however, agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman that it would be better to pay those employed on it by the acre instead of per day.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

pointed out that the estimated cost of the Survey Department contained on account of the military pay drawn by the officers and men; it merely showed the civil salaries of the Engineer officers and men of the Royal Engineers employed on the Survey. It was unfair to the Army to allow the military pay of the large force of Royal Engineers to appear in the Army Estimates. There might have been an excuse for a separation of military pay and survey pay when the Survey department was under the War Office; but now that the department had been removed from under the Secretary of State, it was not only just to the Army, but right in a financial point of view, to debit the military pay in this Estimate, and remove it from the War Office. He hoped that in future they would have a more exact statement of the expenditure under this head.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

was glad to be able to state that the survey of the southern counties was in a very forward state of progress. With regard to the Survey being carried on by the job, he would mention the suggestion to the gallant officer who presided over it, but of course he could express no opinion of his own upon the subject. As to the question as to how long it would be before it would be completed, everything depended on the amount of money voted for it. In 1871, however, his Predecessor, Mr. Ayrton, calculated that 12 or 13 years must elapse before it was completed. With regard to the question of the hon. and learned Member for Beaumaris (Mr. Morgan Lloyd) he would institute inquiry into the circumstances, and communicate the result to the hon. and learned Gentleman.

MR. HEYGATE

was glad to hear the noble Lord say the Survey was rapidly proceeding, but he had a right to demand from Her Majesty's Government that some little extra speed should be given to its completion. Other parts of the Kingdom besides Sussex were deeply interested in the Surveys being proceeded with rapidly, and if the Government had any money to spare, they could not do better than spend it by increasing the Vote. At the present rate of progress, they might all go to their graves without having seen a Cadastral Survey of many portions of the country. He did not, however, agree with his hon. and gallant Friend near him (Colonel Barttelot) that it would be better to pay those engaged upon it by the acre instead of by the day. It was a most important work, and they should receive good remuneration. He thought the best course to pursue was to leave the Survey in the hands of the able Engineer officers who were now employed on the works. It was a mistake to suppose that in the rural districts the Survey was not regarded as of equal importance and equally appreciated as in mining and manufacturing districts.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

hoped that some reduction would be made in the price of the maps constructed according to the large scale. It cost a very large sum to obtain a complete set of the sheets of a county on the large scale. Indeed, it would be wise to reduce the price of all sheets to the mere cost and charges.

Vote agreed to.

(15.) £6,649, to complete the sum for Harbours, &c. under the Board of Trade.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

said, there were several harbours on the coast which might be made available as harbours of refuge, as well as those named in the Estimates, and on the improvement of which money might be well expended. Indeed, it was objectionable to allow this large expenditure to be exhibited in the obscure form at present followed. As far as he could ascertain, nearly £6,000,000 had been spent on harbours in the United Kingdom in 27 years, ending in 1867, of which more than five-sixths had been applied to the coasts of England, and only a small fraction to Scotland. The entire expenditure on harbours should be clearly shown in one Vote, instead of allowing portions to be shown in Scotch and Irish Votes. A better control over this important branch of public works would be useful financially, and valuable in effecting better results for our harbours.

Vote agreed to.

(16.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £7,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Contribution to the Funds for the Establishment and Maintenance of a Fire Brigade in the Metropolis.

MR. SULLIVAN

said, he was well aware that a fire brigade was necessary for the protection of Government property, but he wished to know why some contribution was not made towards the fire brigade in Dublin, in which city there was a very large amount of Government property. Last year it was found that the assessment of the penny in the pound, authorized by the Act, was insufficient to pay the expenses, and the result was that the brigade had to be reduced in strength. He had a strong feeling in favour of granting a sum towards the Dublin Fire Brigade, as was very properly done in the case of London, and unless some satisfactory explanation was given, he would move the reduction of the Vote by £6,999.

Motion made, and Question, That a sum, not exceeding £501, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Contribution to the Funds for the Establishment and Maintenance of a Fire Brigade in the Metropolis,"—(Mr. Sullivan,)

—put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(17.) £195,091, to complete the sum for Rates on Government Property.

MR. SULLIVAN

hoped that some explanation would be given of this Vote, in reference to which no explanation was given on the former occasion. He considered some statement was necessary in reference to the promise given some time ago by the Viceroy of Ireland that the rates on the Government establishments should be defrayed. He should be glad to hear what was likely to be done by the Government in reference to the Vote.

MR. W. H. SMITH

said, that the sole reason why the contribution by the Government to the local rates had not been paid to the Corporation of the City of Dublin was because the necessary calculations, which were in progress, had not yet been made. It must be understood that it took a long time to do that, but as soon as the sum payable had been ascertained, it would be handed over to the local authorities in all cases. The most important of the calculations in other parts of the country had been agreed upon.

In reply to Mr. SHAW LEFEVER,

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that in future the amounts to be paid under this arrangement would appear upon the Estimates. The sums to be paid would vary according to the amount of the rates levied.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

wished to be informed whether any arrangement had been come to in reference to rating the Post Office?

MR. W. H. SMITH

, in reply, said, as soon as the inquiry was completed and the calculation was made, every post office in the country would be rated and paid for, and the fullest information would be given on the subject.

MR. SULLIVAN

asked whether the sum to be paid to the City of Dublin would be forthcoming this year; and, if so, whether it would be necessary to have a Supplementary Estimate brought in as soon as the calculations were settled?

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

said, it appeared to him that Government property should be obliged to pay rates as well as any other description of property.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

, in reply, said, they could not lay down any rule by which Government property should be liable; but a basis had been arrived at by which all Government property would be rated. The rates would be calculated upon that basis, and Votes taken for the amount. The hon. Member for Louth asked whether there would be a Supplementary Estimate for Ireland, and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) imagined no other Estimate would be taken this year beyond the sum named as necessary to complete the Vote.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

thought it desirable that the Government should explain upon what principle Government property had been exempted from the same proportion of rates as all other descriptions of house property. Blenheim, a large establishment, was rated very low, while small houses were rated very high. What he wished to know was the basis on which the Government calculated in reference to the Vote. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state to the Committee what was the principle upon which large establishments such as the Dockyards were rated.

MR. PELL

said, he observed in the Estimate that no contribution was to be expected from telegraphic lines which were being constructed by the Government. Upon what principle would they be rated?

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE

suggested that a Return of the cases already determined upon should be laid upon the Table.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he could not answer offhand the questions which had been put to him by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir William Harcourt), but he imagined the proper principle upon which to calculate would be first to ascertain what similar private property was rated at? There were varieties of matters to be taken into consideration. He would undertake to lay on the Table a Return to meet the views of the hon. Member for Beading, as it seemed the most convenient course to pursue.

MR. MUNDELLA

wished to know on what principle the Royal Palaces were rated. A contribution of £520 to the rates was hardly a fair percentage of the amount at which those buildings should be rated to the poor.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, no rates were charged on the Palaces in the actual occupation of the Sovereign.

Vote agreed to.

(18.) £2,901, to complete the sum for the Wellington Monument.

MR. ADAM

wished to know when it was likely the Monument would be completed?

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

inquired to whom the completion of the work had been entrusted since the death of Mr. Stevens?

MR. GOLDNEY

complained that an entire generation should have been allowed to pass away before the completion of the Monument. The Committee was entitled to ask if the sum now asked for would be sufficient to complete the work, who had the control of it, and if the amount was not sufficient, what was likely to be its ultimate cost? The original Estimate had been £14,000.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, that when he succeeded to office in the early part of last year very little progress had for a long time been made with the Monument, although it had been 22 years in hand. Indeed, it seemed likely that 22 years more might elapse before it was finished. This was not owing to any negligence on the part of his Predecessors, but was entirely owing to the long and deplorable illness of the lamented sculptor, Mr. Stevens, who recently died. At that time he asked the Committee to accept a promise from him that he would consider carefully what course ought to be taken, and that if he found the progress made was not likely to be satisfactory he would propose to place the work in other hands. He was now in a position to make a statement of a gratifying character. The figure of the Duke of Wellington had been cast, and was merely awaiting the finishing of the bronze. One of the large side groups was in course of casting, and there now remained in the studio of Mr. Stevens the other large side group, and three small pieces, which, according to a report he had received at the beginning of the present month from two gentlemen who, at his request, had inspected them, were practically finished. In three weeks from the date of that report every part of the Wellington Monument was expected to be in the hands of Mr. Young, the founder, to whom the delay which had occurred was not in the least attributable. Therefore, he confidently appealed to the Committee to say whether he had not justified the latitude which had been allowed him last year, inasmuch as during the last 12 months all that the sculptor was required to do had been done, and it only remained for the founder to make the necessary castings. In answer to the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Goldney), he might say that that sum of money would finally exhaust the payments for that work. As far as Mr. Young could tell, before the end of the present year every part of the Wellington Monument would be cast and placed in St. Paul's Cathedral. It would be seen that he had taken a large sum in this year's Estimate for that work; but he thought the Committee would prefer that that large sum should appear in the Estimates if he could at the same time assure them that the money voted would produce such substantial results.

Vote agreed to.

(19.) £66,700, to complete the sum for the Natural History Museum.

SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT

said, this was a matter in which he took a deep interest, inasmuch as when the Natural History Museum was completed, he expected to see the Natural History Collection at present in the British. Museum, which was painfully overcrowded, removed to the new institution, and room thus made for the exhibition of many most interesting specimens of ancient art, especially as regarded sculpture, which were now stowed away in the cellars of the British Museum. Some of the finest monuments were now stored in places more fit for keeping casks of beer in than works of art. The original Estimate for the Natural History Museum was £350,000; the revised Estimate was £395,000. What the re-revised Estimate would be he could not tell. At the present rate of progress, it would take three years to complete the building, and he would be glad if the First Commissioner of Works could give them some satisfactory assurance on that point.

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

suggested that the buildings should be high ones, in order to afford ample accommodation to their collections without the necessity of incurring heavy expenses in the purchase of large sites.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, there had been no unnecessary delay. He thought they might safely say that it would take two years from the present time for the completion of the building; but some additional time would afterwards be required for the removal of the collection. During the last year the work had gone on with great spirit, and he was anxious that increased accommodation should as soon as practicable be given to the British Museum. He proposed to take a Vote for £80,000 this year, which would make up £180,000; but after that a further expense would be entailed in removing the collection and preparing the building for its reception.

Vote agreed to.

(20.) £5,580, to complete the sum for the Metropolitan Police Courts.

(21.) £63,400, to complete the sum for the New Courts of Justice and Offices,

MR. GREGORY

urged the expediency of completing those buildings as soon as possible, adding that if their construction was to proceed only at the rate of expenditure named in the Vote, it would take seven years according to the Estimate to finish them—a delay, which taking the rate of interest which had to be paid meantime, and the inconvenience to the legal profession, he strongly deprecated.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

said, he was in no way responsible for the delay which had occurred in the construction of the new Law Courts. The works certainly had not made as much progress as he could have wished. He had communicated with the contractors (Messrs. Bull) on the subject, and they had stated that the magnitude of the undertaking and the necessity of fixing machinery of a certain kind, which he knew from other quarters was of a first-class character, had taken up a great deal of time. In consequence, he might add, of the remarks which he had made on a former occasion, extra hands had been put on, and he could assure his hon. Friend that he would keep a watchful eye upon the progress of the building.

SIR HENRY JAMES

inquired whether any contract had been entered into which in any way limited the time at which the new Courts of Justice were to be finally completed?

MR. GOLDNEY

said, we had in London many examples of large and substantial buildings which had been erected with great rapidity, and referred, as an example, to Covent Garden Theatre, which, though built in seven months, had, as he was informed, not a single structural defect.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

was certain a contract bad been entered into to complete the work in a specified time—seven years, he believed, from the commencement of the works. Six years had elapsed between the time of the purchase of the site and the completion of the contract, and in fact the progress made had only been a progress extending over about 10 months, as the foundation stone, it should be remembered, was laid less than a year ago.

Vote agreed to.

(22.) £450, to complete the sum for Ramsgate Harbour.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

said, the harbour at Ramsgate was an entire failure as a harbour of refuge, and he thought it was a mistake of the Board of Trade to take it over from the Commissioners.

SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY

said, that the charge for the maintenance of the harbour had been placed by Parliament on the Consolidated Fund. There had been a considerable decrease in its expenses, and it was a harbour of refuge though not successful from a commercial point of view. He would also say that passing tolls had been abolished, which formerly produced an annual revenue of £18,000 for the harbour.

Vote agreed to.

(23.) £8,400, to complete the sum for the New Palace at Westminster, Acquisition of Lands and Embankments.

(24.) £147,711, to complete the sum for Public Buildings in Ireland.

(25.) £14,510, to complete the sum for Lighthouses Abroad.

(26.) £59,738, to complete the sum for British Embassy Houses and Consular and Legation Buildings.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next;

Committee to sit again upon Monday next.