HC Deb 03 June 1875 vol 224 cc1365-88

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to.

Clause 14 (Duties and obligations of societies).

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT

moved, in page 10, line 7, to leave out all after "to" to "provide," in line 8, and insert "one or more auditors approved by the Registrar," his object being to secure that in future those who audited the accounts of these Societies should be fit and proper persons to discharge the duty.

MR. GOURLEY

opposed the Amendment.

MR. DODSON

said, the Societies were, no doubt, competent to appoint efficient auditors, but unfortunately they did not always do so, and anybody who had read the Report of the Evidence taken before the Royal Commission must see what evils had arisen even among Societies of considerable standing from the inefficiency of the law. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would apply his mind to secure, in some way or other, an efficient and independent audit. At present auditors were too often the mere creatures of the committeemen, who practically appointed them.

SIR ANDREW LUSK

remarked that the auditors, if of any standing, considered themselves responsible for accounts. He opposed the Amendment as being inconsistent with the principle that the Government were not to give a guarantee.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that this was not merely a question of expense, but of the position which the Government should take in this matter. No doubt, the Commission found that there had been very great laxity in the matter of audit, some of the auditors appointed being exceedingly slack in performing the most ordinary and obvious duties of their office. There was one case in which forms were printed with the signature of the auditor, and the figures were filled in afterwards by the authority of the committee. But there might not be another such case. There were also cases of a more delicate character, where the auditors did not think it right to do more than examine into the arithmetical correctness of the accounts submitted to them, without inquiring whether the committee had authority to incur the expenditure. Steps would be taken by which public auditors would be appointed by the authority of the Government, whose services could be obtained for the proper audit by these Societies; and he trusted the appointment of those public auditors might be of use in other matters besides Friendly Societies. He hoped the general effect of that Bill would be much to improve the system of audit; because it would enforce by penalties the fulfillment of their duties by auditors and other officers of those Societies. He proposed to amend Clause 32, providing for the imposition of a penalty for falsification of accounts, by adding to the words "if any person makes or orders "any false entry the word" allows, "and also by adding words extending the penalty to an intentional evasion of the provisions of the Bill on that subject. That was as far as he thought they could reasonably go, and he objected to the Government undertaking to approve the auditor. If there was sufficient publicity given to the proceedings and sufficient watchfulness exercised, they might hope to check the abuses which had hitherto prevailed. At all events, he was not able to accept the Amendment of his hon. Friend.

MR. ANDERSON

said, he did not think the explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer met the requirements of the case. The audit was insufficient in the Bill and required improvement. He had an Amendment of his own to propose which would much strengthen it, and which was not open to the same objection. He would suggest that those Societies should be required to choose their auditors from the body of public accountants—say, of five years' standing.

MR. DODSON

pointed out that the Bill did not define the duties of the auditor.

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT

said, he did not think that what the right hon. Gentleman proposed would be a sufficient guarantee that the audit would he satisfactory. He should he very glad to withdraw his own Amendment and to allow the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) to move his, though he thought some of the small clubs might have a difficulty in finding such a person as was described in the hon. Gentleman's Amendment. He would suggest the advantage of inserting a Proviso that the auditors should not be members of the Society.

MR. E. STANHOPE

pointed out that if a Society wished to defeat the law it might easily do so by asking the treasurer and secretary of another Society to audit the accounts and promising to perform the same task for the other Society. It was for this reason that he did not persevere with the Amendment he had placed upon the Paper. He trusted the Committee would hesitate before it accepted the hon. Member for Glasgow's Amendment. It would be difficult to say what was meant by a "public accountant."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. ANDERSON

moved, in page 10, line 8, after "provide," to insert— But in cases where only one person is appointed, such person, or where two or more persons are appointed, one at least of such persons shall he a public accountant of at least five years standing, and a member of some incorporated society of accountants, and.

MR. MUNTZ

said, he thought that the more they looked at this matter the more they would see the difficulty in providing for a proper audit. Most of these Societies did their work so well that no different kind of audit was required. This being so, what right was there to insist upon auditing their accounts for them? He believed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not go farther than he had done in this matter; and if the Bill were made too stringent he was sure that it would do more harm than good.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, there was great force in what had fallen from the hon. Member for Birmingham, and he agreed with him that many of those who audited the accounts of Friendly Societies were more competent for their work than most public accountants would be, and whilst they did their work gratuitously they were responsible to their respective Societies. He thought, perhaps, it might be well to amend the clause by saying that the auditors should certify the accounts to be correct "and in accordance with the law." This would throw upon the auditors the duty of seeing that the items could be properly allowed.

MR. WHITWELL

said, he thought that if they were to compel Societies to submit to a new kind of audit they would inflict upon them an injustice which was not inflicted upon other people.

GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR

suggested that the audit might be improved by the appointment of a supervising auditor to inquire into the affairs of Societies in regard to which doubts were entertained.

MR. M'LAREN

said, he was afraid that the object of the Bill would be, to a great extent, defeated if an outside auditor were not appointed. If they had perfect faith in all those Societies, of course there was no necessity for any audit; but when they recollected the rogueries which had taken place in regard to these Societies, he thought they would see the necessity for having an outsider as an auditor.

MR. DODSON

suggested, instead of the words which the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought necessary, these, "duly vouched and in accordance with law." It was most desirable to secure independent auditors; for at present they were frequently appointed by the very persons whom they were appointed to check.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT

proposed to insert the words, "not being members of the Society," which meant that auditors who checked the accounts should not belong to the Society. This, he thought, would secure an independent audit.

Amendment proposed, in page 10, line 7, after the word "persons," to insert the words "not being members of the society."—(Sir Walter Barttelot.)

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

objected to the Amendment which treated all the gentlemen connected with Friendly Societies as though they were rascals. Most of the Societies, especially the large ones, were perfectly able to manage their own affairs; and, in fact, did so exceedingly well. They had within the Societies persons perfectly competent to audit the accounts, and it would be very objectionable to prevent such persons performing the duty. The expense of public accountants would prevent many Societies being registered.

MR. W. HOLMS

, who had an Amendment on the Paper similar to the one under discussion, said, he did not think the audits would be satisfactory unless some such provision were made. It was to be remembered that there were Societies of a different kind from those referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He thought the object they had in view might be secured by making it necessary for one of the auditors not to be a member of the Society, and to be approved by the Registrars.

MR. ANDERSON

remarked that, so far as the Societies referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were concerned, no legislation whatever was required. They did their duties efficiently, but the legislation was to check a different class of society.

MR. STANSFELD

, whilst acknowledging that the proposed words might suggest a slur upon the Societies, was yet convinced that Societies would do well to adopt the rule suggested in the Amendment. "What was required in the auditors was not only competence but independence.

LORD ESLINGTON

suggested that instead of adopting the Amendment in the form in which it had been moved it should be provided that at the instance of a fixed number of members the committee of any Society should be compelled to obtain a perfectly independent audit of their accounts.

MR. COWEN

said, he thought the members of any Society would be better able to audit their accounts than any outsider could possibly be. In provincial towns public accountants were, as a rule, bankrupt attorney's clerks; and he therefore objected to the proposal to employ them in preference to the members of the Societies themselves.

MR. HERMON

said, he thought that such an arrangement should be provided as would give confidence, not only to the members, but to the outside public, in reference to the accounts.

SIR ANDREW LUSK

said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would maintain the Bill as it stood. The question was a most important one. If the accounts were cooked—as someone called it—at all, he believed they would be more thoroughly cooked by a professional cook than an amateur. Let the inspection of the accounts of each Society be left in the hands of the members.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that many hon. Members seemed to think this clause was not strong enough; but all these suggestions had been before him, and he had considered them over and over again. He opposed the Amendment on the ground that if the Societies were respectable and straightforward better audits would be obtained by the appointment of members as auditors than if outsiders were chosen; and that if the Societies were bad it would be as easy to engage outside auditors who would play into the hands of the committee as for the committee to obtain tools among the members themselves.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, he was afraid that the smaller Societies would be very liable to appoint inefficient auditors. Many of them would very likely appoint the publican at whose house the Society held its meetings. If it were best, as suggested by the hon. Baronet (Sir Andrew Lusk), to leave the Bill as it stood, they must, to carry that to its proper result, have no audit at all. The sort of audit would really depend more on the auditors than on any rules the Committee could lay down. What the Committee wanted was to get as many as possible of these weak Societies within the scope of the Bill, and thus make them safer and more useful. If the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would put into the clause the words "approved by the Registrar," the result would be that the public auditor would be taken.

SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONE

suggested that the hon. and gallant Baronet (Sir Walter Barttelot) should alter his Amendment to "one of the said auditors not being a member of the Society." It would add greatly to the security of the Society if one auditor was always a non-member.

MR. FLOYER

objected to the Amendment because it would interfere with what had been the ordinary practice of a large number of well-regulated Societies. In numerous instances these audits were conducted, and efficiently conducted, by some of the honorary members. They were persons generally well-qualified; they were amongst the more respectable classes of the place; and it would be a great misfortune if such persons were shut out from the performance of this duty. It could not be said that there was any necessity to have persons qualified to go into nice legal questions. All they had to see was that the different monies were carried to the right accounts, and that no money had been fraudulently dealt with.

MR. HENLEY

said, that as the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought fit to introduce auditors as a means of seeming to give security, they should be very careful how it was done. It was always a delicate matter for Parliament to decide upon the best course under such circumstances; but if they were to hold out to these Societies that by the appointment of auditors the Bill was going to give them security, the least they could do was to take care the auditors were of the best kind, and especially of a kind in which those who were concerned had confidence. Anyone who had had any experience of the world knew there was such a thing as "cooking" accounts; and if the affairs of these Societies were likely to go wrong the persons most likely to be cognizant of and wink at the cooking of the accounts would be those within the limits of the Society. He therefore thought the proposal of the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Harcourt Johnstone), to have at least one of the auditors a non-member, was a most valuable one.

MR. MELDON

thought that the appointment of auditors at all by Act of Parliament was objectionable in principle as interfering too much with the freedom of the Societies, If official auditors were appointed they ought to be men of high standing, and they would require heavy fees, and the expense would tend to keep the smaller Societies out of the scope of the Bill.

MR. ALFRED MARTEN

considered that an auditor who was himself interested in and belonged to the Society would be the most likely person to insist upon the accounts of a Society being well kept.

COLONEL BERESFORD

said, he thought the provision in the Bill in reference to the appointment of auditors was a good one.

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT

said, he was sure that those who agreed with him did not wish to cast any slur upon the members of the Society; but he felt himself bound to go to a division if his Amendment received any support from hon. Members.

MR. EVELYN ASHLEY

said, he thought if the hon. and gallant Member was resolved to go to a division, he would improve his Amendment by inserting the word "benefit" in it.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 29; Noes 153: Majority 124.

MR. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 10, line 8, after "provide," to insert "one at least of whom shall not be a member of the society, and shall be approved by the registrar." The hon. Member said, there was a very strong feeling that the Bill did not give all the guarantees which it might do for a satisfactory audit.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QXTER

said, his objection to these propositions was that the whole proceeding would be a sham; because names would be sent up and receive the sanction of the Registrar which would give the appointments a kind of authority they were really not entitled to. He thought the Bill, in its present shape, would go very far towards bringing about a satisfactory and efficient audit.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

was of opinion that, unless something of the kind proposed were done, the Bill would not really very much improve things as they stood.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, it did not follow because an Act of Parliament did not succeed in making everything perfect it therefore did no good. Under the present law nothing was required except that the rules should contain a provision for periodical or annual audit. But there was no provision as to the way in which the accounts should be prepared, no penalty on the auditors for mistakes or wilful omissions, the whole thing being as loose as possible. This Bill, though it did not go the length the hon. Gentleman wished, went a considerable way. It provided that there should be an audit by auditors; it gave the Registrar power to regulate the way in which the accounts should be prepared, and made other improvements where all was now in confusion. What the auditor would have to do was to see whether the items posted under the various heads—such as Sick Fund, Management, Death Fund, and so on—were properly posted. Besides, a penalty was imposed on the auditor if he did not do his duty properly. Therefore, it was nonsense to say that the Bill did nothing.

SIR ANDREW LUSK

said, the Committee had decided this question already.

MR. COWEN

suggested that if the members of a Society disapproved an audit by their own members, the members of the Society should be at liberty to appoint an additional accountant to be recognized by the Registrar or the Government.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, if the members of a Society at one of its ordinary meetings disapproved an audit by persons who were members of the Society they would have the power of appointing other persons to audit the Society's accounts.

MR. W. HOLMS

did not see why the Government should shrink from throwing this responsibility on the Registrar.

MR. CHADWICK

believed that if the payment of small fees for auditing the accounts of a Society were made compulsory considerable damage would be done. He approved the option which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed to give to Societies of appointing public accountants. He hoped the Amendment would be withdrawn, as the clause was much better as it stood.

Amendment negatived

MR. WHITWELL

proposed that after the word "provide" should be inserted— And whose names and addresses shall be sent up to the registrar and published by a notice put up in the lodge-room or board-room of the society, if any, three months before the period of audit. His object was to give publicity to the names, so that the members of a Society might protest against the appointment, if they saw good and sufficient grounds for so doing.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the Amendment was quite in accord with the spirit of the Bill, and he was prepared to accept it.

MR. ALFRED MARTEN

said, he thought it would be necessary to provide for cases in which the auditor appointed might die or become incapacitated from performing the duty, or the result would be that the audit would have to be delayed, which would be very objectionable.

MR. CHADWICK

said, experience had proved that every audit ought to be a continuous one. Therefore, he would suggest that the auditor should be appointed at the beginning of the year, and be authorized to audit the accounts half-yearly, quarterly, or in any other mode he might think proper.

Amendment agreed to.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

moved the insertion of words making it incumbent on auditors not only to see that the accounts were correct, but that they were in accordance with law.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. MELDON

said, that when a certain number of the members of a Society thought the audit had not been fairly conducted, they ought to have the power to obtain an official investigation into the affairs of the Society. He therefore moved an Amendment giving the Registrar power to appoint at his discretion an official auditor, who was to be invested with all the powers possessed by the ordinary auditor.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

pointed out that the object of the hon. Member would be substantially obtained by the 23rd clause, which empowered the Registrar, on the application of a certain number of members, to cause an inquiry to be made into the) affairs of the Society.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. ALEXANDER BROWN

moved, in page 10, line 30, after "Parliament," to insert— Provided, That in those cases where societies send to the registrar, with the annual returns of receipts and expenditure, returns of sickness and mortality experienced by the society during the year, quinquennial returns as provided by this section shall not be compulsory.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 10, line 36, after "by," to insert with a view to secure the appointment of a competent valuer— Some person not an officer of the society, carrying on publicly the business of an actuary, or approved by the registrar.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the objection to this Amendment was similar to the objection he had urged to the Amendment respecting audit. The great security was that the valuation should be made upon an uniform principle, and a power was reserved to the Registrar by one of the sub-sections to prescribe the form and particulars of every annual, quinquennial, or other Return. Thus there would be a security for a valuation on a uniform plan.

MR. CHADWICK

suggested that the valuation should be conducted by a committee of three experienced persons appointed by the Society. In almost every Society there were men who, though perhaps in humble life, were competent to discharge this duty.

MR. SALT

supported the Amendment, because he felt that the greatest care should be taken to make this quinquennial audit and report in particular as real as possible.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the valuation of a Society's assets and liabilities required an amount of technical actuarial information which they could hardly expect from the ordinary members of a Society. He had hoped, however, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would adopt the principle of the Amendment.

MR. ALFRED MARTEN

said, he thought the valuation would be best arrived at under the influence of regulations provided by the Registrar. An actuarial valuation would add a great expense to the Societies. He trusted the Committee would not adopt the Amendment.

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT

said, he thought that the Committee should adopt either the Amendment of the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. W. Holms), or that of the hon. Member for Mid-Lincolnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope), because it was essential that these valuations should be accurate. The small Societies would certainly not be able to find amongst their own members any one fairly competent to take an account of the assets, and if Parliament were going to help them in that matter they must find a fit officer to undertake the duty, instead of leaving it to the members themselves, who might be guided solely by an interested person—namely, the publican.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

objected to the Amendment, because it would throw a great impediment in the way of the registration of small Societies. One of the main difficulties with regard to valuations at present was that even the most eminent actuaries, when called in, arrived at different conclusions, because they proceeded on totally different principles in making the valuations. Then the cost of valuations would be beyond the means of small Societies. It would be better that the Registrar should draw up a list of matters that should be taken into account in making the valuation.

MR. CHADWICK

complained that they were forcing too much upon working men, in the way not only of professional accountants, but professional actuaries and valuers. He thought valuers would do all that was required of

SIR ANDREW LUSK

agreed that actuaries belonged to the class of men who would not do their work without large payment, and that certainly was a difficulty in the present case.

MR. W. HOLMS

disclaimed any intention to force actuaries upon Societies. A competent man would, however, be required, and his appointment should have the approval of the Registrar. All he wanted was to protect poor people by ensuring a proper valuation of the assets and liabilities of Societies.

MR. SPENCER WALPOLE

approved of steps being taken to prevent the impression that the accounts of the Societies were not fairly and fully gone into at the proposed quinquennial periods, and that the Societies were not capable of meeting their liabilities. It would be objectionable to put any unnecessary-expense upon these Societies, because that would be a discouragement.

MR. WHITWELL

suggested that the valuer should be compelled to make a declaration of his duties before the magistrates in petty sessions. He considered if his suggestion was adopted that it would bring the persons appointed before the public, and would secure efficient persons being appointed.

MR. BRISTOWE

believed the Amendment would have the effect of strengthening the position of members of the Societies whom it concerned.

MR. MACDONALD

said, it had been suggested that those Societies should be allowed to work out their own affairs, and he thought so too. With regard to the question of the proposed mode of valuation of the effects of the Societies, he considered it would be so expensive as to seriously diminish their property. He had received a communication informing him that there was a Society in Glasgow numbering 50,000 members, and that the cost of making a valuation of their property amounted to 500 guineas. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, the Amendment would be productive of considerable deviation from the principle of the clause; and he was sorry to say he could not accept it.

Amendment negatived.

MR. E. STANHOPE

moved, in page 11, line 6, to add at end— Provided, That if the Society shall consist of less than one hundred members, and the registrar shall find that the assets and liabilities have not previously been valued by any actuary, he may direct the first valuation to be made at half the usual charge to the Society.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

entirely sympathized with the object of the Amendment, because he was most anxious that small Societies should come in under the Bill, and he would take care that the fees were so fixed as to give the greatest possible encouragement to small Societies. Probably he might be able to go even further than the Amendment with regard to the cost of the first valuation, and he might possibly be able to make it almost a nominal charge.

Amendment by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MACDONALD

said, many Societies would object to the valuations on the ground of the expense which they would involve, and which, in the case of a Glasgow Society, he was informed, would amount to £500. He was afraid the result would be that such Societies would remain unregistered, and to guard against this he moved, in page 11, line 6, at end, to add— Provided always, That the valuations required by this section shall not be compulsory in the case of societies who shall comply with the following provisions: (1.) Shall have their tables of payments by members certified as sufficient to yield the benefits assured by an actuary qualified as provided for by section 11 of this Act, if such actuary shall have declared, by a certificate under his hand, the amount of loading allowed in computing such payments for the total expenses of collection and management; (2.) Shall satisfy the chief registrar that the average expenses of collection and management for each quinquennial period fixed by this Act do not exceed the amount allowed therefor by the actuary; and (3.) Shall satisfy the chief registrar that the sums saved, and which are added to the capital account during each quinquennial period, amount on an average to fifteen per centum of the gross income of the society.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he had been fighting the battle of the Societies, and endeavouring to secure them as much as possible against Government interference; but the present clause went a great deal further than was desirable, and would defeat the object of the Bill. The payment of an actuary, according to the scale required in the Amendment, would involve the Societies in a considerable expense.

Amendment negatived.

MR. CALLENDER

moved, in p. 11, line 8, after "books," to insert "other than the minute books of the Society," which ought to be regarded as of a confidential character, on account of the financial transactions therein recorded.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

desired time to consider the special reasons urged in support of the Amendment, which he could not accede to, lest it should open the doors to the concealment of irregularities. He mentioned a case which was known to the Commission as the "Scotch joke;" there was a minute to the effect that the rail- way fares of agents attending the meetings were to be paid, but this was qualified by another minute to the effect that the fares were to be paid only if the agents supported the directors.

SIR ANDREW LUSK

said, nothing could be more dangerous than to close the books of the Society from the members; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would never consent to anything of this kind.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. W. HOLMS

moved an Amendment to restrict the power of Registrars to dispense with quinquennial returns.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, the provision, as it now stood, had been made at the request of a very large Society, the "Hearts of Oak," which represented that the cost of sending in a separate return would be very large, and all the necessary information could in their case be given otherwise.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

moved in page 11, line 19, after the word "person," to insert the words "whose death is entered in any register of deaths."

Amendment agreed to

MR. DIXON

moved, in page 11, line 22, after the word "entered," to insert the words "or of a duly qualified medical practitioner," these words having reference to the importance of medical certificates and the question of fees.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he was afraid he could not agree to the insertion of those words. The effect of their insertion would be to inflict a considerable loss on the Registrars.

MR. WHITWELL

said, he hoped the hon. Member for Birmingham would not press his Amendment.

MR. GOLDNEY

said, he thought the Amendment was unnecessary.

Amendment negatived.

MR. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 11, line 25, before the word "fails," to insert the word "wilfully."

MR. MACDONALD

hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hackney.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

agreed that it was undesirable to weaken the clause by the insertion of the word "wilfully."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 15 (Privileges of societies).

MR. SALT

moved, in page 13, line 11, to leave out from "being," to "member," in line 13, both inclusive. The third sub-section of the clause enabled certain persons nominated to receive certain benefits at the death of a member; and the words he proposed to leave out limited the description of such persons. He thought a member of the Society should be able to nominate any person to receive those benefits.

MR. GOLDNEY

said, he hoped the Amendment would be agreed to.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he had already enlarged the number of persons to whom benefits would be payable; but he was not disposed to be crabbed in this matter, if the feeling of the Committee appeared to be in favour of giving further extension. He would accept the Amendment; but, as there might be danger in allowing the nomination of officers of the Society in certain cases, he would add the words, "not being an officer or servant of the Society."

MR. SALT

said, he had no objection to these words being inserted.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

MR. LOPES

called attention to this—that, in the event of the death of an officer, the money of the Society in his hands would be protected for the Society; but there was no such protection given in the event of bankruptcy taking place, though this was now the law under the Friendly Societies Act. He moved in page 14, line 16, sub-section 7, after "death," to insert "or bankruptcy or insolvency."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he knew there was a strong feeling upon this point, and he was prepared to adopt the principle. If the words were inserted, he would see if they fully carried out the intentions of the Committee, and unless they did so, he would bring up a complete clause upon the Report.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. W. HOLMS

said, that Sub-section 8 would allow Societies to be registered which consisted "wholly or partly" of members under 16 years. He proposed to leave out "or partly," because great inconvenience would arise from Societies composed of adults and young persons being registered.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, the object was to allow Societies consisting partly of parents and partly of young persons to be admitted to registration; but the Registrar was to have the power of making proper regulations.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the Committee ought to know what those regulations were, because otherwise the Societies might be placed in a position with which the Committee were unacquainted.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he thought there was some force in the objection, and he would propose a clause to meet it.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16 (Property and funds of societies).

MR. MACDONALD

said, the clause did not meet the case of Societies managed by delegates, and he proposed to make the matter clear by moving in page 15, line 17, after "meeting," to insert "or where the society is managed by delegates, a majority of the delegates present at a delegate meeting."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he did not think the words necessary, but he had no objection to their introduction.

Amendment agreed to.

COLONEL BERESFORD

moved, in page 15, line 28, after "being," to insert "the purchase of or loan upon shares in any joint-stock company."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he thought it very undesirable that trustees should invest in joint-stock companies; but if the Government restricted investments they would, to a certain extent, make themselves responsible for the investments. He believed that in Lancashire some Societies had invested in property of that character.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 17 to 19 inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 20 (Officers in receipt or charge of money).

MR. MACDONALD

moved, in page 21, line 2, after "society," to insert "or the committee of management," in order to make the meaning of the clause more clear.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he was willing to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 21 (Legal proceedings).

MR. ANDERSON

moved, in page 21, line 33, to leave out "or, if such office or place of business be closed, by posting such copy on the outer door of the same." He said, as the clause was drawn a summons might be issued and even held to be sufficiently served if it was posted outside the office. But, by keeping those words in the clause, the officer might go and post up a notice on the door when the office was closed, and then send some one to take it down, and in that way judgment might go by default. Cases of this description had occurred in Scotland.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, the proposal contained in the clause was recommended by Mr. Littledale, the Assistant Registrar in Ireland, who had had great experience. It was represented that it was desirable that care should be taken that the summons was served. He was willing to modify the clause by inserting that the summons should be left at the registered office, if the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his Amendment.

MR. ANDERSON

said, that would not meet his objection.

MR. GOLDNEY

suggested that the summons should be posted in the Post Office.

MR. MELDON

said, he thought that would meet the case, if the summons were also sent by registered letter.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

said, he was willing to add to the clause that the summons should be posted by registered letter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

proposed to amend the clause, by providing that the summons should be sent by registered letter to the registered office of the Society.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. MACDONALD

moved, in page 21, line 35, to add— But in all cases where said summons, writ process, or other proceeding shall not he served at the registered office of the Society, a copy thereof shall be transmitted by post addressed to the committee of management at the registered office of the Society, and the same shall be enclosed in a registered letter delivered at said office at least four days before the calling of such summons, with process or other proceeding in Court.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

accepted the principle of the Amendment, but suggested that the words should be drawn up by his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22 (Disputes).

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

moved, in page 22, line 6, to leave out "otherwise direct," and insert "expressly forbid it,"

Amendment agreed to.

MR. MELDON

moved an Amendment to extend the register to Ireland and Scotland.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

moved, in page 22, line 26, after "summary jurisdiction," to insert— Provided that in every case of dispute cognizable under the rules of a society in a court of summary jurisdiction, it shall be lawful for the parties thereto to enter into a consent referring such dispute to the County Court, which may hear and determine the matter in dispute. There were many disputes in Societies in which the questions in issue were questions of fact, but involving points of law, and he considered that the County Court would be the best tribunal to decide them.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the clause seemed to him to be perfectly intelligible as it stood. He had no objection, however, to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 23 (Special powers of registrars to be exercised on application from members).

MR. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 23, line 7, to leave out "three-eighths," and insert "one-fifth."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that as in all these cases the consent of the Treasury must be obtained, the Amendment of the hon. Member would have but little practical effect.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 23, line 11, to leave out, "more than ten thousand members," and insert— Ten thousand members and not exceeding fifty thousand, or of one thousand members in the case of a society of fifty thousand members and not exceeding one hundred thousand, or of two thousand members in the case of a society exceeding one hundred thousand members.

Amendment negatived.

MR. MELDON

moved, page in 23, line 12, to leave out the words "by his direction," as he thought that the Assistant Registrar for Ireland or Scotland should be allowed to act without being obliged to apply to the Chief Registrar for authority. He did not see why the Chief Registrar should be interposed.

Amendment proposed, in page 23, line 12, to leave out the words "by his direction."—(Mr. Meldon.)

MR. ASSHETON CROSS

said, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought it necessary to retain the authority of the Chief Registrar as proposed in the clause.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 157; Noes 73: Majority 84.

Clause 24

SIR WALTER BARTTELOT (for Mr. FLOYER)

moved, in page 24, line 34, after Sub-section 3, to insert the following sub-section:— 4. A society may by special resolution detach and sever absolutely from itself any distinct section of its members, whether called a lodge, branch, or otherwise, after due notice of not less than one year: Provided, That such portion of the capital stock as would be due to such section, if the society were dissolved at that time, be paid to it from the funds of such society.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he could not accept the Amendment. It was going further than he thought they ought to go in the way of legislation for these Societies.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 25 (Dissolution of societies).

MR. DIXON (for Mr. STANSFELD)

moved, in page 28, line 40, after "appropriated," to insert— That the Chief Registrar may suspend his award for such period as he may deem necessary to enable the society to make such alterations and adjustment of contributions and benefits as will in his judgment provide sufficient and equitable remedy in the premises, and prevent the necessity of such award of dissolution being made.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

accepted the Amendment. It was desirable to avert the extreme measure of a dissolution, and it might be prevented by a re-adjustment. There were two ways of getting out of a financial difficulty, by reducing the benefits or increasing the contributions, and the Amendment would throw the onus upon the Society of extricating itself from the difficulty.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26 (Militiamen and Volunteers not to lose benefits).

MR. DIXON

proposed, as an Amendment, to leave out so much of the clause as enabled certain societies certified before the 23rd of July, 1855, to levy an additional contribution on members serving out of the country, or to suspend their claims of the society whilst serving abroad, provided that on their return they should forthwith be replaced on the same footing as they were on before going abroad. If the Society could not be relieved from the risk and danger to life from a Militiaman becoming a soldier of the Line—which risk they did not wish to incur—it would be better to omit the clause altogether.

THE CHANOELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that the section simply repeated the existing law, which it would not be wise to alter.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 27 (Limitations of benefits).

SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONE

did not see why the limit should not be extended.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

explained that the reason was that members of these Societies were exempt from stamp duties and other charges, so that they received benefits at the expense of the Revenue. There had always been the limit which was in the Bill.

Clause agreed to.

MR. COWEN

moved that the Chairman report Progress, the clause being a most important one, relating to death and burial insurance.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

objected. He said the clause was one which, no doubt, would elicit discussion; and as it was desirous, if possible, to get through the Bill, he hoped the hon. Member would withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 28 (Payments on death of children).

MR. CALLENDER

said, that the clause provided that no Society should pay more than £3 upon the death of a child under three years, and he proposed to insert "five" instead of "three." The clause provided a hard-and-fast line which would inflict much hardship on large towns, and he trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would consent to substitute the word "five" for "three."

Amendment proposed, in page 30, line 24, to leave out "three," and insert "five."—(Mr. Callender.)

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

observed, that the clause had given him considerable anxiety, and the Government had had to contend with circumstances of peculiar difficulty. They desired to avoid casting a stigma on the working classes which was not deserved; and, on the other hand, they had no desire to neglect doing their duty to the Societies. It was never their intention to favour the odious charge that parents of any class were guilty of the crime of infanticide. But they did think that there was some evidence to show that in the case of children insured in Burial Societies there was more neglect and less care than in any other Societies. They did not consider that as applicable to the great masses of the working classes; but there were a certain number of persons of low and degraded cha- racter who were not insensible to the temptations thrown in their way. He referred especially to the case of illegitimate children, and there was evidence to show that some Societies declined to insure illegitimate children at all. There were cases in which a child had been doubly insured by the parent and by another person who had contributed nothing towards its funeral expenses. Many of the clubs were conducted on principles which nobody could approve of. Under these circumstances, it was necessary to take steps to introduce more order and regularity into the proceedings, and to prevent abuse in the granting of certificates. The first question was the amount to be insured. It must be remembered that to allow the working classes to insure their children at all was a privilege granted to Friendly Societies, and that according to the general law no other person could insure the life of a child or any other person who had not an insurable interest. Their object should be to fix the sum at such a figure as would not give parents a profit on the death of their children; but he found it was difficult to arrange with those interested in the matter what the amount should be. He had entered into a careful investigation of the subject himself, and he was bound to say that the further he went into the matter the more difficult it was to arrive at a satisfactory sum. In some parts of the country 30 would be sufficient; but in other parts the funeral expenses were much higher. Under these circumstances, and after consulting his Colleagues, he had come to the conclusion that it would be the best, the most reasonable, and the most satisfactory course, to accept the Amendment of his his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester.

MR. DODSON

hoped that the Committee would not be too precipitate in disposing of this point. The Chancellor of the Exchequer himself did not know his own mind on the subject. The House had previously had three different propositions from him within a short space of time. He now quite suddenly asked them to adopt a fourth. The Committee ought to report Progress, and have leisure to consider it. This was a matter of such difficulty and delicacy that no time should be grudged in its discussion.

MR. HOPWOOD

said, he had an Amendment on the Paper which dealt with this matter, and was of great importance. He could not hope to get it fully discussed that evening, and therefore he thought he was justified in moving that the Chairman report Progress.

MR. HENLEY

said, he was very glad that the Government had, by what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, removed the odious imputation under which Lancashire had so long laboured.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QUER

agreed to the Motion to report Progress, but intimated that he would resume the Committee at 2 o'clock tomorrow. In the event of the Bill being disposed of at the Morning Sitting, the Land Titles and Transfer Bill would be proceeded with.

Motion agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock?