HC Deb 01 June 1875 vol 224 cc1245-56

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 10 (The registry office.)

MR. MELDON

moved, in page 5, line 4, to leave out "an assistant," and insert "a." He said, the Amendment he proposed involved a most important question—namely, whether Ireland, for the first time with reference to the registration of Friendly Societies, was to be treated in every respect as if it was an English county. The Friendly Societies in England which sought to extend their business to Ireland were not solvent societies or societies which did a large amount of business here. It was the insolvent societies which, having exhausted their credit in this country, sought to extend their business to Ireland, and extract contributions from the working and poorer classes. He thought this Bill ought to guard most carefully the interests of the Irish people, The proposal of the Bill was, that any society being registered in England was entitled to be registered under similar circumstances in Ireland, so that a society in Kerry wishing to get registered had only to come to England, and then it would be registered in Ireland as a matter of course. He hoped the Government would accept his Amendment.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, it was from no wish whatever to centralize in England or to disregard the interest or feelings of the people of Ireland that this clause had been inserted in the Bill. On the contrary, this proposal was made mainly in the interests of the Irish themselves. It had been represented to the Government by the Assistant Registrar of Societies in Ireland, and by others, that no complaint on the part of a subscriber in Ireland to a society which was registered in England or Scotland only, and had extended its business to Ireland could be entertained, because the society had not been registered in Ireland. To remedy that grievance it was proposed by this clause that in the case of such societies separate registration in Ireland should not be necessary.

MR. MELDON

objected that the right hon. Gentleman's the Chancellor of the Exchequer's arguments did not apply to the present Bill, but only to the old system. What he wanted was a separate registration for Ireland, so that Societies might sue and be sued in the country in which the monies were collected and the head office situate.

THE CHANCELLOR OFTHE EXCHEQUER

said, that the object of the Bill was to protect the poorer subscribers. If a company registered in England failed to get registered in Ireland, then the subscribers would have no remedy against the society.

Amendment negatived.

MR. SALT

said, at present one at least of the Assistant Registrars must be a barrister or solicitor of seven years' standing. He thought it would be well to leave the matter entirely open, as many persons connected with the great Friendly Societies would be very suitable for this office, and yet were not barristers. He moved, in page 5, line 10, to leave out "one at least of the Assistant Registrars for England."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, it was thougth desirable to have a man with legal training as one of the two Assistant Registrars.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. STANSFELD

moved, in page 5, line 14, after "standing," to insert the following sub-section:— The central office may also, with the approval of the Treasury, comprise such assistants skilled in the business of an actuary and an accountant as shall from time to time he required for discharging the duties imposed on the office by this Act.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

accepted the Amendment, with the substitution of the words, "have attached to it" for "comprise."

MR. GOURLEY

said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take an early opportunity of strengthening the office, as the work was in arrear.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

MR. STANSFELD

moved, in page 5, line 30, after "district," to insert "or otherwise make known." The object was to give such information as might be thought necessary.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 5, line 36, section 5, sub-section (b), after "fit," to insert the following sub-section:— (c.) Cause to be constructed and published tables for the payment of sums of money on death, in sickness, or old age, or on any other contingency forming the subject of an assurance authorized under this Act which may appear to be calculable: Provided, nevertheless, That the adoption of such tables by any society shall be optional. The hon. Gentleman said, he thought, in looking over the Report of the Royal Commissioners, that there was nothing more clearly brought out than the fact—that one of the principal, if not the main cause, of the wide-spread insolvency of Friendly Societies was the want of information, especially in reference to the amount of premiums to be paid in proportion to the benefits to be received. The Commissioners emphatically declared the necessity of having clear tables for the benefit and guidance of societies.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he attached very much importance to the publication of tables, and it was a matter greatly insisted upon in the Report of the Commission. It had been omitted from this Bill because it did not appear to be actually necessary, and because there seemed to be some misapprehension on the part of members of Friendly Societies as to the animus of the Government in placing a proviso to the same effect in the Bill of last year. As the Amendment had been moved, however, he would not object to it.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. ASHBURY

moved, in page 5, line 40, after "preceding," to insert— He shall also within six months after each quinquennial period lay before Parliament a copy of every valuation made under this Act, and in Conformity with Clause 14, sub-section (f).

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, there was some misapprehension on the question referred to by these Amendments. The Bill provided that the societies should make returns once in five years, but it would be impossible for the societies to lay before Parliament a copy of every valuation, as proposed by the hon. Member for Brighton. He thought that so heavy a duty ought not to be imposed upon the office. He would, however, consider whether suitable words might not be inserted on the bringing up of the Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MELDON

moved, in page 5, sub-section 6, after line 40, to add the following sub-section:— The registrar for Ireland shall exercise all the functions and powers by any existing Act of Parliament vested in the registrar of friendly Societies or of Building Societies for Ireland, or in the barrister or person appointed to certify the rules of Friendly Societies in Ireland, and shall be entitled to receive all fees payable to such registrar, barrister, or person, and so that all provisions in such Acts relating to such registrar, barrister, or person shall be construed as applying to such registrar, and such registrar shall exercise all the functions and powers in Ireland by this Act given to the central office or chief registrar, which such central office or chief registrar may exercise in England.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he was afraid the words proposed by the hon. Member would cause some confusion. The hon. Member would see that there was a provision in the Bill by which the Registrar would exercise all the functions required in reference to the societies in the United, Kingdom, and as it was better that there should be only one system, he hoped the hon. Member would not press his Amendment.

MR. MELDON

expressed himself satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, and consented to withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHRQUER

moved, in page 6, line 6, subsection (a), to leave out from "powers" to end of sub-section, and insert— Now vested in the registrars of Friendly or Building Societies for Scotland and Ireland respectively, or as respects Benefit Building Societies and societies instituted for purposes of science, literature, or the fine arts, vested in Scotland in the Lord Advocate or his depute appointed to certify the rules of Friendly Societies there, or in Ireland in the barrister appointed to certify the rules of Friendly Societies there, and shall be entitled to receive all fees payable to such registrar. Lord Advocate, or his depute or barrister respectively, and so that all provisions in any Acts of Parliament not hereby repealed relating to such registrar, Lord Advocate, or his depute or barrister respectively, shall be construed as applying to the assistant registrar respectively.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. MELDON

moved, in page 6, line 31, at end, to add the following sub-section:— 10. All notices, requisitions, certificates, acknowledgments, returns, and documents which by this Act are required to be served, made, given, furnished upon, by, or to the central office or chief registrar shall, in the ease of Societies registered in Ireland, be served, made, given, and furnished to the registrar for Ireland.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he would look into the clause, and, if possible, amend it in a manner to meet the suggestions of the hon. Member.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 (Registry of societies.)

MR. COWEN (for Mr. SALT)

moved, in page 7, line 2, after "public," to insert—"and no society shall change its name without sanction of the registrar."

Amendment agreed to.

MR. SALT

moved to leave out subsection (4), which provided that— A society (other than a benevolent society or working men's club) should not be disentitled to registry by reason of any rule for or practice of dividing any part of the funds thereof.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

feared that the omission of this sub-section would exclude from registry many of the small agricultural societies. He did not say that the dividing societies were the best; but the object of the Government was, as far as possible, to leave those interested to work out their views in their own way.

MR. SALT

said, that he had only brought forward the matter that those interested should know that the whole subject had been considered in all its bearings.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. W. HOLMS

moved, in page 7, section 4, at end, to add— Provided that a separate fund, supported by a separate contribution, shall be kept for that purpose, and no division shall be allowed from any funds subscribed for any other purpose named in the objects of the society, unless upon an actuarial examination there is proved to be a surplus of assets over liabilities. The hon. Member explained that the object of the Amendment was to prevent Societies from dividing their funds without keeping in hand a sufficient amount to meet existing liabilities; and such a provision was necessary for Societies which were dividing Societies and Friendly Societies at the same time.

Question proposed, "That those words be there added."

SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONE

said, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would show great kindness if he would accept the words of the hon. Member for Paisley, and allow them to be inserted in the Bill.

MR. E. STANHOPE

opposed the proposal on the ground that an increase in the number of dividing Societies would prove an evil rather than a good, particularly in the rural districts. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not accept it.

MR. MORGAN LLOYD

proposed to omit from the Amendment the words "unless upon an actuarial examination there is proved to be a surplus of assets over liabilities "so as to leave it open to distribute any separate fund.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that by the proposed Amendment the Government would be incurring a greater amount of respon- sibility than it was desirable they should incur. The spirit of the proposed legislation was to set these Societies as free as possible to manage their own affairs.

MR. E. STANHOPE

said, an objection to the Amendment was that there would be three or four separate funds, and that it was possible that a division might take place from the fund set apart for that purpose, at a time when the benefit funds were quite unable to meet the claims upon them.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, that in the case of dividing Societies there was great danger that sufficient funds would not be left for the benefit of those who might require assistance.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, such Societies would be formed upon a principle that would prevent danger.

MR. MUNTZ

said, he thought an Amendment of this sort was necessary, because it frequently happened that in consequence of the funds of a Society having been distributed among its members, a person who had contributed to it for many years could not get a farthing from it in his old age. He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider the point, and bring an Amendment on the Report.

MR. DODSON

suggested that this Amendment should be withdrawn in favour of the next, which stood in the name of the hon. Member for Lincolnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope)—namely, Provided the rules thereof, in the judgment of the registrar, contain satisfactory provisions for meeting all claims upon such society existing at the time of division before any such division takes place.

SIR SYDNEY WATERLOW

opposed the Amendment. Many of these Societies did a great deal of good by dividing their funds among the members. After a division of its funds, it was open to a Society to begin business again.

MR. W. HOLMS

, in replying, contended that if the keeping of a separate fund to meet demands on a Society In respect of sick members and for funeral payments were not made compulsory, the evils which had occurred from want of funds for those purposes would occur again. A large portion of the members of Friendly Societies throughout the country were desirous that his Amendment should be adopted. They wished that all Societies which were registered should be made as safe as it was possible to make them.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that after having listened to this discussion, he was of opinion that it would be most dangerous to attempt to lay down any restrictions and regulations on the subject, which, after all, might not be found to fit many cases. He quite agreed with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Holms) that it was desirable these Societies should be safe; but it was not the business of Parliament to make them safe.

Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment, to leave out from the words "a separate fund" to the word "and," inclusive.—(Mr. Morgan Lloyd.)

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Question put, That the words 'Provided that a separate fund, supported by a separate contribution, shall be kept for that purpose, and no division shall be allowed from any funds subscribed for any other purpose named in the objects of the society, unless upon an actuarial examination there is proved to be a surplus of assets over liabilities,' be added after the word 'thereof,' in page 7, line 5.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 155; Noes 200: Majority 45.

MR. E. STANHOPE

, who had a Notice of Amendment on the Paper—namely, in page 7, line 5, at end, to add— Provided the rules thereof, in the judgment of the registrar, contain satisfactory provisions for meeting all claims upon such society existing at the time of division before any such division takes place, said, that after the discussion which had taken place, he was willing to leave the matter in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who would, he hoped, bring up words on the Report to secure the object which he had in view.

MR. COWEN

said, if the hon. Member declined moving his Amendment, he would do so, and accordingly moved the insertion of the words.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he did not wish to renew the discussion, as he had nothing further to say on the subject.

LORD ESLINGTON

represented the division as taking place at the very time when there was the greatest demand upon the sick fund, and with the object of excluding them from participating in it. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman could not see his way to accept it.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the Amendment was taken from a Bill of his own, which he had withdrawn, because it introduced a principle which he did not wish to see introduced into legislation upon the subject. He wished, however, to meet the general feeling of the House, and although he could not accept the Amendment, he would endeavour to provide that the rules of each Society should contain a distinct provision, showing in what way the division should be effected, and what provision should be made with respect to other claims, and that the accounts should be kept in such a manner as to show how the division of profits had operated.

MR. DODSON

said, he thought the words of the Amendment were open to the objection that they suggested something like a Government guarantee.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. SALT

moved, in page 7, line 12, after "registry," to insert— And within five years after the passing of this Act every registered Society shall adopt tables for payments in sickness or on death, certified by an actuary approved by the registrar. His object was that all registered Societies should, within five years, be compelled to adopt tables certified by some competent actuary—a provision which, as far as it went, would be an assurance that the Society was founded on sound principles, and a provision also which would inflict no hardship, as its adoption was one of the first steps which must be taken by any Society that was trying to emerge from its difficulties.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he could not accept that Amendment without altogether departing from the principles on which they had proceeded in regard to that Bill. If they adopted the Amendment, they would be giving something very much in the nature of a Government guarantee to Societies registered under the Act. All previous experience was against such attempts. It might be said they were doing that in respect to a particular class—namely, annuitants, by obliging the Societies to submit tables certified by a competent actuary. But annuities were easy matters to reduce to actuarial calculation, and so also were death-rates; whereas, in regard to sickness tables the case was different, and experience showed that they were not in a position to devise tables which they might force the Societies to adopt, or which they could hold out as giving what might be called an absolute security.

Amendment negatived.

MR. MELDON

moved, in page 7, line 29, to add—"If the registrar for Ireland refuses to register the Court of Queen's Bench at Dublin." The Amendment, he said, did not interfere with the principle of the Bill; but he thought the proposal he made was very much better than sending the appeals from Ireland to the Chief Registrar in England and then to the Queen's Bench in England.

MR. MACDONALD

said, that in the case of Scotland he was in favour of the appeal being made to the Court of Session instead of to a Law Court in London, because it would save expense.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he thought it would be a pity to break up the system provided in the Bill, the object of which was to secure uniformity of decision in these cases throughout the United Kingdom. If the first appeal was left to the local Courts there might be conflicting decisions. In special cases an appeal would be in Scotland and Ireland to the tribunals of those countries.

MR. MELDON

rejoined that if that argument was worth anything it meant that the Courts of Ireland should be abolished in favour of the English Courts, in order to secure uniformity of decisions. If that were proper as regarded these Societies, it was also proper as regarded more important questions. The issue between the two countries being thus directly raised he must divide the Committee upon it.

MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY

supported the Amendment, and thought that if the Bill passed as it stood they would be purchasing uniformity at too high a rate.

MR. HERSCHELL

said, he was impressed with the value of uniformity; but he thought the right hon. Gentleman would in this case gain that uni- formity at the expense of so much complexity and confusion that he would do well to re-consider the point, inasmuch as it would often be a matter of doubt whether the appeal should be to the Chief Registrar or to the Court at Dublin.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. MACDONALD

moved the insertion of words, appointing the Court of Session in Scotland the Court of Appeal.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that he was very much struck with the remark of the hon. and learned Member for Durham (Mr. Herschell), and that had induced him to accept the last Amendment. The present Amendment followed as a matter of course, but the clause would require rearrangement on Report.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12 (Cancelling and suspension of registry).

MR. MELDON

moved, in page 8, line 12, after "registrar," to insert—"Or, in case of a society registered in Ireland, the registrar for Ireland."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he thought the power of cancellation of certificates should remain only in the hands of the highest authority. He would re-consider the matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. LEEMAN

moved, in page 8, line 14, after "fit," to leave out to end of clause, and insert—"Upon the application of one-fifth of the whole number of the members of a Society." His object was that the application of one-fifth of the members should be necessary in order to put the Registrar in motion for the purpose of bringing about the cancellation of a society.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the object of the clause was to allow a Society, as a whole, to obtain cancellation with the approval of the Registrar. It would apply to a cluster of affiliated Societies which desired to be registered as a whole.

SIR HENRY JAMES

said, he thought the clause provided a greater safeguard than the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.

And it being now five minutes to Seven of the clock the House suspended its Sitting.

The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.