MOTION FOR A RETURN. (Hansard, 1 August 1874)

§ MR. E. JENKINS
moved for a Return of the number, names, and present residences or livings of Clergymen and Ecclesiastics of whatever grade in the Irish Church who up to the end of July, 1874, have, under the Irish Church Act, commuted and compounded; stating the annual value of their livings, the amount of commutation agreed on, and the amount of composition paid in each case. The hon. Member said, that as 1108 he understood the Motion was to be opposed by Her Majesty's Government, he was anxious to say a few words as to his reasons for moving for these Returns. He understood that the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (the Attorney General for Ireland), who was a member of the Irish Church Representative Body, objected to grant these Returns on the ground that the House was not entitled to ask for them. He (Mr. Jenkins) was, however, of opinion that not only had the House a right to call for their production, but that it was perfectly legitimate on his part to move for them. The reason why he had placed the Motion on the Paper was that efforts had been made from time to time in the Synod of the Irish Church to got these Returns from the Irish Church Representative Body—a body which consisted of 60 members, who met only once a month, and not even so frequently in the summer months, and which had paid out in compositions and advances to the clergy of the Irish Church the large sum of nearly £2,000,000. He thought the House of Commons had a right to know where that money had gone to, and he had received several communications from men of the highest position in the Church, who spoke in the highest terms of the transactions of the Irish Church Representative Body with reference to these compositions. Remonstrances had been of no avail, and in a pamphlet which he held in his hand, it was stated that Major General Young had moved for a Return, and was supported by Mr. Ellison, a Catholic, who stated that it was difficult even for a member of the Representative Body to obtain information as to the computations and compositions, but particularly with regard to the compositions. He (Mr. Jenkins) was of opinion that the country was entitled to know how the scheme of Disestablishment and Disendowment was being carried out. He should certainly press for the production of the Returns on the ground that there could be no object in keeping back an account of the transactions which had actually taken place.

§ MR. LOCKE
seconded the Motion.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Dr. BALL)
was understood to say that he had no objection to produce the Returns moved for so far as it was in the power of the Government to do so. It would be impossible, however, to comply with that part of the Motion which required the production of Returns in reference to the compositions made by the Irish Church Representative Body with the clergy who had commuted. The position of matters was this—In making a composition the sum paid was the actual market value of each life, and if there was the slightest error in calculating the duration of these lives there would be a failure of the fund provided for paying the annuities. The market value was regulated by the tables which were founded upon an average of the whole lives of the English community; but as they did not represent the real duration of these particular lives, the consequence was that it was absolutely essential for the safety of this gigantic scheme of annuities that there should be a largo margin in hand. The Church Body had the power of relieving themselves from those annuities by a process of composition, and he contended that this had been done in the interest of the Church itself. The Representative Body were bound to account to the Synod by the Queen's Charter for the sums expended. There being a regular Parliament of the Church in this Synod, which was held at Dublin, the information now asked for should be obtained through the Synod; but the Government could not embark in the inquiry. The late Church of Ireland was in no respect different from a Dissenting body. It occupied the same position as the Roman Catholic or the Presbyterian, or numerous other Dissenting sects, and was in no way connected with the State, or under its control.

§ MR. SYNAN
said, his right hon. and learned Friend had passed by the real question involved in the Motion before the House. It did not deal with the clergy, or with the Synod, or with the relations between the clergy and the Synod, but it dealt with that for which 1110 the Government were responsible—namely, the proceedings of the Church Commissioners.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Dr. BALL)
said, he had already stated that he would give every information as to the Church Commissioners. It was only that part of the Returns which related to the Representative Body which he was unable to give.

§ MR. SYNAN
said, he did not clearly understand what part of the Returns it was that the Government refused to grant.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Dr. BALL)
I object to the word "compounded." That is a transaction between the Church and the clergy, and is not a transaction of the Commissioners. I am quite willing to give the names of all the clergymen who have commuted, and the total amount paid, but I can give nothing beyond that.

§ MR. SYNAN
You have the individual amounts of the computations and the bulk sum.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Dr. BALL)
I agree to give that.

MR. MACARTNEY
It would be impossible strictly to comply with the terms of the Motion. The right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland could not tell what were the present addresses of the clergymen who had compounded.

§ THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Dr. BALL)
said, he would move to leave out the words "and compounded."

§ MR. E. JENKINS
regretted that he must press for the entire Return. The answer of the right hon. and learned Gentleman simply evaded the real question—the main point being that part of the Return which the right hon. and learned Gentleman refused to give. It must be remembered that the Irish Church Representative Body formed a large part of the Synod, and that when they voted together they could prevent the laity from obtaining these Returns. In point of fact, the laity were unable to ascertain how far their rights were being bartered 1111 away. He considered it his duty to press the Motion.