HC Deb 23 June 1871 vol 207 cc525-40
SIR GEORGE JENKINSON

rose to call the attention of the House to the subject of the proposed plan of connecting the Mediterranean Sea with the head of the Persian Gulf by means of a Railway along the Valley of the Euphrates, and the great advantages offered by that line in the enormous saving of both time and distance, and expense for the conveyance of Her Majesty's Mails and Troops, as well as of Passengers, &c. between England and India, thus showing of what vital importance it is to this Country to secure that additional route to or from our Eastern Possessions; and to move for a Select Committee to examine and report upon the whole subject of Railway communication between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf. In bringing the subject under discussion before the notice of the House, the hon. Baronet said, he had no interest whatever in, or connection with, any of the commercial enterprises mixed up in this subject. On the contrary, he brought it forward entirely on public grounds, believing it to be of national and European, nay, of world-wide importance. About a year and a-half ago he had the honour to have at his house the company of the Turkish Ambassador, His Excellency Musurus Pacha, who brought before him the subject of a railway from the Mediterranean along the Valley of the Euphrates to the Persian Gulf, and a considerable amount of correspondence subsequently ensued between them, resulting in a letter in which the Turkish Ambassador gave him assurance of considerable advantages which would accrue to England from joining in the scheme. One of the principal conditions was that the Turkish Government should carry Her Majesty's mails between England and the East entirely free so long as the railway should remain in her possession. Exactly 14 years ago Mr. Sotheron Estcourt, who was then Member of Parliament for the place which he (Sir George Jenkinson) now represented, brought forward the subject. That was in 1857, the year of the Indian Mutiny; and he would point out how vastly important the possession of such a line would then have been to England in the saving of human life, to say nothing of the amount of expense we should have saved if we had had the means of pouring our troops at once into India, with the rapidity which this line would have enabled us to do. In the Crimean War they sacrificed something like £90,000,000; in the Indian Mutiny about £40,000,000; and the expense of the railway would not have been more than £8,000,000 or, at most, £10,000,000. He did not, however, ask the Government to vote money for the purpose of constructing the line, as his hon. Predecessor had done; but all that he asked for was an inquiry into the subject before a Select Committee. The great point for England was to have an alternative route to their Indian possessions. In the event of any complication with a foreign Power the possession of a second route would be most important. Twelve months ago a morning paper stated that, even so long ago as the last century, the Marquess of Wellesley endeavoured to utilize the very route that he (Sir George Jenkinson) was now bringing before the House. In 1834 the question was taken up by the Government, and £20,000 was voted by Parliament for the purpose of exploring the route; and the East India Company voted an additional £5,000, to be applied to the same purpose. Captain Chesney was employed to command the Expedition, which was fitted out to make a survey of that route, and the evidence of that gallant officer was one of the points that he wished to bring before the Select Committee. In 1857 the late Lord Palmerston, speaking of the then projected Canal of Suez, said he considered the scheme to be physically chimerical; that he thought it would not be remunerative commercially; but he added that the main point to which his opposition was directed was that the Canal would be the first step in the separation, of Egypt from Turkey, and therefore the first step in the disintegration of the latter country—a point of very serious importance, and to prevent which European Powers had on more than one occasion gone to war, and especially so lately in 1854. If a man of so great acumen as Lord Palmerston was so misled as to describe as physically chimerical a scheme which had since been perfected and was now in full operation, it was exceedingly likely that other persons might be misled in the present day, when they spoke of the difficulty of carrying out the railway—a proposal for which he now placed before the House. He believed that there were no engineering difficulties in the railway, at least none comparable with those surmounted in the case of the Suez Canal, and that circumstance, he thought, afforded a strong reason why England should endeavour to neutralize an evil—a political evil—which Lord Palmerston anticipated 14 years ago. The line would not be in the least degree antagonistic to or in competition with the Suez Canal. The Canal would still benefit the communication with the southern parts of India, and it would still, probably, monopolize all the heavy traffic. But the now line would be of the greatest importance to the North-west frontier of India, the line of the Indus, and the North-west Provinces, which in the case of an attack from without would stand in most need of a quick communication from this country. He understood that the Government would not oppose the Motion for an Inquiry, and that relieved him from the necessity of going at great length into the details and figures and facts on which he grounded his application, and therefore he would proceed as rapidly as possible with only the general heads of the scheme. This line would save, in round numbers, a week in time between England and the North-western parts of India; it would save at least 1,000 miles in distance; it would avoid the pestilential heat of the passage through the Red Sea; would substitute for it the comparatively easy and smooth navigation of the Persian Gulf; and it would expedite the communication between this country and India by a fortnight for the outward and the home journey, which for passengers, and the conveyance of letters to and fro, was a most important consideration. It had been urged against this railway that it would not be all in land under the control of the Turkish dominions, as part of it would go through laud belonging to independent Arab Chiefs; but the evidence he could bring before the Committee would show that the Arab tribes, if they were fairly treated and subsidized, always performed honourably their engagements, and only acted in an unpleasant manner towards those who tried to pass through their country in defiance of them. If this line were made, both the termini would be on the open sea—a fact which, so far as England was concerned, was of immense importance, because both would be able to be easily protected by England. Were the line established, he estimated that a great saving would be effected, and one transport out of three now plying between Aden and Bombay would be saved, as two passing to and fro from Bussorah to Bombay or Kurrachee would do the work more efficiently, and at a great deal less cost. That would represent a gain of no less than £46,868; and he was informed that, even if the advantageous arrangement with the Turkish Government to which he had alluded should not be carried out as was expected, the transmission of Her Majesty's mails by the railway between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf might be effected at a saving of £60,000 a-year as compared with the present cost by the Red Sea route. Eleven days were allowed to the steamers passing between Bombay and Aden, and they were not always regular. But the fleet of steamers now subsidized by the Indian Government on the Persian Gulf, between Kurrachee and Bussorah, would render the same service in five days, would do it with much more regularity, and the comparative danger of accidents might be estimated by the fact that this fleet never had been the subject of one, while, he believed, it was well known that the Peninsular and Oriental Company had sustained great losses, chiefly from the dangerous navigation of the Red Sea. Not only was the distance of 1,000 miles saved, but, as all persons acquainted with those seas knew, during the south-west monsoons, ships on the course of the Peninsular and Oriental, between Aden and Bombay, had to make a detour of 500 or 600 miles, and therefore there was a much greater economy of distance than even the straight line measurement of the respective courses gave. He did not base his argument on the trade and commercial point of view only, although there could be no doubt that the payment or non-payment of the line, regarded as a commercial speculation, would be far indeed from problematical. In 1869 there was imported to this country from British India 481,000,000 lbs of raw cotton, being more than a third of the whole import, and considerably more than was imported from the United States in the same period. The imports also included 80,750,000 lbs of wool, 10,500,000 lbs of tea; and, from India and Ceylon, 70,000 tons of coffee, these last two being articles which it was advantageous to have conveyed as rapidly as possible, and which therefore furnished an additional reason why the line should be made, if it could be done without risk or injury to the State. The value of the imports from British India last year was over £33,000,000, of which £18,500,000 worth was cotton for the looms of Lancashire; the exports to India in the same period being £17,500,000, of which £10,800,000 represented cotton goods from the same mills. The National Debt of India was £100,000,000, not a third of which was held by Natives; there were other £100,000,000 invested in railways and other public works in India, of which barely £1,000,000 was Indian capital; and this was leaving out of account the large amount of British capital invested in private enterprise connected with the trade transacted by this country in Eastern seas. The trade of India, with England alone, amounted in 1852 to £ 17,500,000; it had risen in 1862 to nearly £49,500,000; and during the next three years—1863–4–5—it averaged upwards of £66,000,000. Everyone who considered the paramount interests involved in these figures must see the extreme importance of accelerating by a fortnight the passage of mails and travellers between this country and India. Indeed, there could be no doubt that the distance saved would be about 1,000 miles and a week in time each way. The construction of the line, too, was perfectly practicable, according to the testimony of competent men, who had gone carefully over the survey, the only difficulties to be surmounted lying in the first 90 miles from the Mediterranean to Aleppo, from which last place almost the entire route would lie through a flat country, presenting no obstacles whatever. He wished to express beforehand his acknowledgments to the Government, who had agreed to accept his Motion, and to add that he had no other motive in bringing forward the question than to uphold the honour and safety and prosperity of this great country. He begged leave to move the Resolution of which he had given Notice.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "a Select Committee be appointed to examine and report upon the whole subject of Railway communication between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf,"—(Sir George Jenkinson,) —instead thereof.

MR. T. BRASSEY

said, his hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Sir George Jenkinson) had, in his able statement, glanced at all the arguments which could be adduced in favour of the Euphrates Valley Railway, and as he anticipated that the Government would entertain the proposal of his hon. Friend, it was hardly necessary for him to enter upon any further exposition of the merits of the scheme. His hon. Friend had referred to many authorities who had expressed opinions in favour of this railway. If he (Mr. T. Brassey) might refer to one additional authority of great weight, he would quote the Report recently presented to that House by Captain Tyler on the best route for the transmission of mails from this country to India. Although that Report was not made with special reference to that particular railway, yet allusion was made to it in the most favourable terms. His hon. Friend had referred to the high estimates of traffic which had been made by those best acquainted with the country through which the Euphrates Valley Railway would pass. For his own part, he must express his belief that those estimates were not in the least degree exaggerated. The total net traffic which had been estimated represented a dividend of 5½ per cent on the capital, which it was expected the railway would require. The estimate of the cost of the line, however, was framed on the assumption that the gauge must necessarily be the same as was usually adopted for European railways; but it would be possible to reduce the cost by means of the system which had been successfully applied to mountain railways in Norway, and by adopting the Fell system on those parts of the line which presented the greatest natural obstacles. He should be sorry to see this country committed to a subsidy or unconditional payment in support of this railway, as the experience of the Red Sea Telegraph and other enterprises of that kind tended to prove that it was not wise policy for the Government to undertake a fixed payment, irrespective of the performance of certain valuable services. However, if it were proved that the postal and political advantages of the scheme would be very great, he hoped it might be possible to entertain a proposal for sending the mails by this route, on condition, of course, that the service should be efficiently performed. Irrespective of the advantages arising from shortening the period of time expended in communicating with India, and the facilities offered for the transmission of troops, it could not be doubted that it would augment our influence in the East, and enable us to fulfil in a more satisfactory manner than hitherto the task of introducing western civilization into the vast Asiatic Continent.

MR. GRANT DUFF

said, he should save the time of the House if he rose thus early in the discussion to state that the Government had no objection to accede to the Motion if such were the general wish of the House. Indeed, it was the opinion, of the Government that as this question of communication by one or other of several proposed railway routes between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf had been so long discussed, both in England and India, and as many opinions had been expressed, especially in the latter country, in favour of such means of communication being established, it was high time that the whole question should be investigated, with all the powers of inquiry which that House possessed. At the same time it must be distinctly understood that Her Majesty's Government did not commit themselves even to the proposition that any means of communication by railway between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf was in any way feasible; still less did they commit themselves to the opinion that any one of the proposed routes was either feasible or desirable. They wished to go into the inquiry with their minds absolutely unbiased. Of course, no one who had given the slightest consideration to this question could doubt that the physical difficulties were very considerable, that the political difficulties were even more considerable, and that the financial difficulties were perhaps more considerable than the others. Still, so many persons of weight had expressed opinions in favour of one or other of these routes that it was at least fair that they should have an opportunity of going before a Select Committee of the House, and of trying to prove that the physical, political, and financial difficulties might be overcome; for most certainly if they could be overcome great advantage would accrue both to England and India.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, That the words 'a Select Committee be appointed to examine and report upon the whole subject of Railway communication between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf' be added, instead thereof.

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, by inserting, after the word "Mediterranean," the words "the Black Sea."—(Mr. Grant Duff.)

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

said, his hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Sir George Jenkinson) had done good service by bringing this question forward, for it was quite time that a subject so frequently discussed out-of-doors should be considered in the House of Commons. He was glad the Government had granted the Inquiry for which his hon. Friend had asked. His hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India had stated that the Government would not be bound to any particular scheme. His hon. Friend confined his proposal to a route between the Mediterranean and India; but it was well known that alternative routes had been proposed, and that the Mediterranean was not the only sea on the shores of which the head of a railway might be placed. By many very competent authorities it was considered that the best place for the head of a railway would be Trebizonde, on the Black Sea, and certainly some port which might be reached from this country with- out a long sea voyage would be preferable to a port in the Mediterranean. The ordinary route by the Danube across the Black Sea to Trebizonde would be a much better route, especially as they had lately spent large sums in connection with the St. George's mouth of the Danube, and guaranteed large sums to be paid by other countries. The Committee would have to contrast the proposed route with the Brindisi route and the Marseilles route. The Marseilles route had been obstructed or in danger of being obstructed, and he should think that both that and the Brindisi route were more liable to be closed than that by the Danube and the Black Sea. If a Committee entered upon an inquiry at all, its inquiry ought to embrace every route from Europe to India. It was of consequence that we should, if possible, secure this alternative route, for we had already learnt how much we were at the mercy of the Peninsular and Oriental Company with regard to the carrying of mails. Some time ago an attempt was made to re-open the contract with the Company, and to obtain a better one, but the Company know they were masters of the situation. They refused the proposed terms, and there was no alternative but to accept their terms. On that ground, therefore, it would be an immense advantage to have this alternative route. Another reason for inquiry was that the advice of the English Government had already been asked by that of Turkey, which had been applied to by a company for a concession with regard to this very route. Upon many grounds it was important that such an inquiry as was proposed should be undertaken. It was premature to pronounce an opinion with regard to the feasibility of the suggested route; but a glance at the map would show that it was the most direct route between England and India, and when the Government of India had completed the Indus Valley Railway and the Moultan, and there was continuous railway communication between Kurrachee and the Punjaub and Delhi, it would be the most direct route to the most important points of India. He believed that Mr. Layard, a most competent authority, considered that there would be no difficulty in making terms with the Arab tribes for the protection of the line. Upon all grounds an inquiry could not fail to be of great utility. The Government had acted very wisely in complying with the request made, and his hon. Friend had done good service in calling attention to the matter.

SIR CHARLES WINGFIELD

said, that the promoters of this scheme had repeatedly asked for the support of the Government, and on one occasion waited on the late Lord Palmerston to seek pecuniary assistance. [Sir GEORGE JENKINSON said, he was not speaking on behalf of any company.] He (Sir Charles Wingfield) considered that it was right to refer to the parties who were bringing this scheme before the public. Lord Palmerston declined to give pecuniary assistance; and in 1857 the promoters asked the Under Secretary of State for India to give a guarantee. Again, so late as 1870, they had requested the Secretary of State for India and the Secretary of State for War to undertake to use the line for the transport of troops. He believed it would be a failure, even if it received that assistance; and, moreover, he must maintain it could never compete with the route through Egypt for the conveyance of merchandise, because it was an accepted fact that through traffic on a long line of railway could never pay, and heavy goods could not bear transhipments. Before the Suez Canal was open only goods of small bulk and great value were sent across the Isthmus by the railway, although the voyage by the Cape occupied 90 days. To show that any expectations of local traffic in the countries which the line would traverse would be disappointed, he would quote the Report upon the tenure of land in Turkey, from the recently published collection of official Reports on that subject, collected for the purposes of the Irish Laud Act of last Session. The Report represented that such was the depreciation of land that no creditor would accept a mortgage on his debtor's estate, and that agriculture was waning on every hand. To support a through, railway it was necessary not only that a country should be fertile, but that it should be densely populated, and, further, that it should have good roads to facilitate internal communications; but in this instance the country was absolutely destitute of communications, and therefore the enterprise must be financially a failure. He admitted that such a railway, constructed by Eng- lish capital and managed by Englishmen, would extend our fame and reputation, but, in case of an invasion of India, he did not see what could be effected by means of the Euphrates Valley route. The line through Egypt was quite as much to be relied upon, even if the Canal were not kept open, which it Mould be; and then there was the alternative route by the Cape, by which we sent out our reinforcements for India in 1857 and 1858, when the Mutiny was suppressed before a single soldier could reach India by the Overland Route. He had the strongest objection to any guarantee or promise being given by our Government, and to our Government allowing its influence to be used in any way to obtain a concession from the Turkish Government. Such assistance led the promoters of enterprises to imagine they had a right to call for interference and help whenever they thought their interests were affected. He knew that European companies in Turkey were engaged in constant altercation with the Government, which they accused of breach of engagement. Further, any official intervention on our part might lead the Turkish Government to imagine that, by granting a concession, they had established a claim to support in case of differences with foreign Powers. The Government had agreed to the appointment of a Committee, but he hoped the inquiry would be limited to the political bearings of the question, to the feasibility of the scheme, and to what advantages would accrue to this country from it. It was not desirable, nor was it competent, for a Committee of that House to enter into the financial prospects of such an enterprise, because as a speculation it should come before the public on its own merits, and not be floated by means of a favourable Report presented to Parliament.

MR. C. B. DENISON

said, he was glad that the Government had granted a Committee, for it was impossible to exaggerate the importance of the question, which had been too long waiting for the opinion of this House. There were physical, political, and financial difficulties, but they could be overcome, and all who took an interest in the matter should have an opportunity of explaining their views before a Committee. He was opposed to the Government giving a guarantee to such a line, although he must admit there was not a single proposition of the nature of the one under discussion, but had for its basis something of the kind; but he would enter upon the inquiry on other points without prejudice.

MR. DODSON

said, he approved the appointment of a Committee, and was glad to observe that the Motion was wider than the notice by which it was prefaced. The inquiry ought not to be limited to the Euphrates Valley. The impression he had derived from travel was that the Tigris Valley would afford the best route of communication between the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf. Along the Euphrates Valley there would be but little local trade, because, after leaving Aleppo, the railway would for 700 miles pass through a country in which there was scarcely a town of any importance, whereas by the Tigris Valley route it would first pass some considerable towns, and, on the whole, go through a better district, and one that was inhabited by comparatively peaceable tribes engaged in pasture or in agriculture. Then, again, by selecting the cast side of the Tigris it would, to a certain extent, be accessible to the roads from Persia, and, therefore, to the travellers who wished to go to the Mediterranean or the Persian Gulf. Anyone who had travelled, as he had, in Asia Minor must admit that it was a country not favourable to the construction of railways, owing to the difficulty of finding passes through the mountains; but the practicability of such a route was a matter into which the Committee should inquire. He suggested that the Motion might be so altered that the Committee should examine and report not only upon the subject of railway communication between the Mediterranean, but also between the Black Sea and the Persian Gulf. He agreed with the remarks that had been made as to the desirability of having a second line of communication to India, but he hoped the Government would not consent to any proposal of guarantee.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, that the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire (Sir George Jenkinson) had guarded himself against making any proposal for a guarantee, or suggesting any preconceived scheme; all he asked for being a Committee of Inquiry. He (Mr. Kinnaird) hoped the hon. Baronet would consent to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Member who had just sat down (Mr. Dodson). It would strike a forigner as very strange that the Government in acceding to the Motion for a Committee should have thrown so much cold water upon it by doubting the probability of any good arising from the inquiry. The same course was pursued when it was proposed to construct a railway through, our own Canadian dominions to Vancouver's Island; but the railway to San Francisco, which had taken its place, was now a prosperous undertaking: and had the Government given the Canadian project any encouragement, Canada might have been greatly benefitted by it. The construction of this railway was a matter that affected the working classes of this country, because England was the workshop of the world; and by encouraging enterprises of this kind, calculated to bring wealth into the country, the Government would do better than by merely offering a guarantee. They ought to take a large view of the interests of this country, as Lord Palmerston would have done. Now, however, only discouragement was offered, a course that he deeply regretted on account of the honour as well as the interests of the country, and yet more on account of the importance of the scheme itself, which he thought no one who had listened to the debate would be disposed to deny.

MR. EASTWICK

said, there were many points in favour of the Tigris route, from which there would be obtained a much larger traffic than along the Euphrates Valley. He, however, desired to point out that the route proposed by the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire (Sir George Jenkinson) had been thoroughly surveyed; but it was not known what difficulties there might be in the Tigris route, and not only that, but it was 300 miles longer than the alternative route. The flatness of a country was not a thing that was a great recommendation in many cases, but in regard to railways it was a most sovereign advantage. Now, the Valley of the Euphrates was perfectly flat, and there was nothing better that could be desired in the matter of levels than those of that route. Having visited various parts of that route, he could state that great facilities existed there for making a good road, and, moreover, one very important point was, that as soon as one arrived in the neighbourhood of Baghdad the roads were crowded with people flocking to or from the great places of pilgrimage, and he could assure the House that the local traffic from Baghdad to Bussorah would pay. He thought it would be quite impracticable, even in these days, to carry a railway from Trebizonde, because of the difficulties presented by impassable mountains. He regretted extremely that the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir Charles Wingfield) should have taken so very disparaging a view of this great national enterprise; and he hoped that the proposed inquiry would not be limited to the political aspect of the question, but would extend to all its other bearings. He tendered his acknowledgments to the Government for assenting to the appointment of the Committee; and as the Suez Canal must for ever remain as a stupendous monument of French energy and successful engineering science, so he trusted that the wastes of the Euphrates Valley would not long continue to be a memorial of the lack of corresponding qualities on our part.

MR. WATKIN WILLIAMS

said, he must contradict, from facts within his own knowledge, the statement made by the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire (Sir George Jenkinson), as to the large number of losses that had occurred in the conveyance of the mails from Suez to India by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Company. Taking a calculation of their amount of tonnage, the number of passengers and of mails which they carried, and the distance that their vessels ran, he maintained that the ships of no company had met with so low an average of losses as those sustained since its establishment by the Peninsular and Oriental Company; and after the remarks which had been made that evening, he thought it was only fair and just that that fact should be stated. The Peninsular and Oriental Company, moreover, insured their own ships, and the profit upon their insurance account was far larger than that of any ordinary insurance company. The losses of that company had been attributable to the extraordinary perils of the navigation of the Red Sea; but now the navigation of the Red Sea had been greatly improved, by the more perfect surveys which had recently been carried out.

MR. SINCLAIR AYTOUN

regretted that the Government had acceded to that Motion, because he thought that the consequences might be serious to the country. The fact that Asiatic Turkey contained only 15,000,000 of inhabitants, as stated by Mr. Palgrave, did not afford any promising prospect to the shareholders in the company. The hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for India said that the Government held themselves perfectly free, but he only understood that to apply to their not committing themselves to any particular line, and he did not say that the Government would not give any money guarantee nor any political support to the company. The truth was, that the company did not wish for a Committee in order to obtain information, and their object, no doubt, was to commit the country to a guarantee of some kind. He should object to any money guarantee, but what he feared most was the political complications which we might be involved in. If the Government encouraged the construction of the line, they would then be told that they must use their political influence to support the route. It was said that they could keep open the line through the Arab territory by paying the tribes, but that would be the worst kind of security; and sooner or later they would be led into hostilities with these tribes. Again, there was the danger of the Turkish Empire falling to pieces, and a pretext would be afforded for involving this country in war to support that decaying Power. The safety of their Indian Empire would be better provided for by their looking to the internal defence of that country. When the Mutiny broke out they had on their hands an expedtion to Persia, and another to China which left India denuded of troops; and if that line should be constructed their forces would be employed in keeping open the route. He hoped that some Member of the Government would state that the company should not be led to expect any Imperial guarantee or any political support.

SIR GEORGE JENKINSON

, in explanation, said, that he had not intended to cast any imputation on the Peninsular and Oriental Company; he had simply stated that they had lost vessels, without intending to make any imputation of any kind.

Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.

Question put, That the words 'a Select Committee be appointed to examine and report upon the whole subject of Railway communication between the Mediterranean, the Black Sea, and the Persian Gulf,' be added to the word 'That' in the Original Question.

The House divided:—Ayes 86; Noes 10: Majority 76.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to. Select Committee appointed, "to examine and report upon the whole subject of Railway communication between the Mediterranean, the Black Sea, and the Persian Gulf."—(Sir George Jenkinson.) And, on July 4, Committee nominated as follows:—Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, Viscount SANDON, Sir GEORGE JENKINSON, Mr. FREDERICK WALPOLE, Mr. EASTWICK, Mr. BAILLIE COCHRANE, Mr. LAIRD, Mr. GRANT DUFF, Mr. KINNAIRD, Mr. THOMAS BRASSET, Sir CHARLES WINGFIELD, Mr. HENRY ROBERT BRAND, Mr. M'ARTHUR, Mr. DYCE NICOL., and Mr. KIRKMAN HODGSON:—Power to send for persons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, that out of courtesy to the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite the Member for Hereford (Major Arbuthnot), whose Motion stood next upon the Paper, he proposed moving again the Order for going into Committee of Supply, that the hon. and gallant Member might proceed with his Motion. But he wished it to be understood that this was not a practice to be regarded as a matter of course, and that it was no part of the arrangement contained in the recommendation made by the Committee, that Supply should be moved on every Friday night. He would again move "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

Resolved, That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee of Supply.—(Mr. Gladstone.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."