COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 21 July 1871)

§ SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON
said, that many people had approached that subject for the last few years on very false issues, and he had a word to say for those much abused persons—namely, the lords of the manor in Epping Forest. He happened to know that the lords of the manor were prepared to offer every facility for meeting the just views of the public. The lord of the manor of Sewardstone had at his request suspended the felling of timber at High Beech, to see if any arrangement could be come to. As to Wanstead Flats, they belonged really to the trustees of the Earl of Mornington, and it was only a dispute with the lord of the manor of Ilford that prevented them from being inclosed some time since with the sanction of the Court of Chancery. Lord Cowley had shown his disposition to keep open spaces for the public by giving seven or eight acres of valuable land to the public. If that Bill passed his Lordship would place every facility in the way of the public to carry out any arrangement that might be come to. He (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) should be glad to see the Bill pass.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that he would not anticipate the action of the Commissioners when they came to consider the subject mentioned by the hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson); but the sole object of the Bill was that matters should be fairly and justly arranged.

§ MR. KINNAIRD
said, that there had been a great change of feeling since the last sitting of the Committee, because parts of the Forest were now thrown open to the public from which they were previously excluded.

§ MR. A. JOHNSTON
said, the appreciation of the Bill by the public would greatly depend on the composition of the Commission.

§ MR. COWPER-TEMPLE
said, he trusted the names of the Commissioners 138 would be such as to afford general satisfaction.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that he would take care the names were inserted on the Report, and trusted they would meet with the approval of the House. He would do his best to get gentlemen most competent to perform the work in hand.

§ MR. G. B. GREGORY
moved in page 6, at end of clause, to add— Or whether any and what proceedings should be had or taken, either at law or in equity, for the maintenance or preservation of the rights of Her Majesty in or over the said Forests, or to the timber thereon, or for the prevention of any inclosures, trespasses, or encroachments upon such rights or Forests respectively. The insertion of those words would enable the Commissioners to make special Reports as to any and what proceedings should be taken at law or in equity to maintain the rights of the Crown in reference to the felling of timber, and also in reference to any inclosures that might take place. His object was, that upon any such Report being made the Government should take steps to prevent wrong being done.

§ MR. AYRTON
opposed the Amendment, believing that it would be calculated to destroy the object of the Bill and to encourage litigation.

MR. WINGFIELD BAKER
said, he regretted the opposition to the hon. and learned Gentleman's (Mr. G. B. Gregory's) Amendment, and thought it most desirable that pains should be taken by Government to preserve the Forest uninjured and undiminished, and it would be best to place the Commissioners in the position of Verderers, whose duty it was to regard trespassers and do justice and right for the people.

§ MR. G. B. GREGORY
said, he would withdraw his Amendment.

§ MR. COWPER-TEMPLE
moved in page 6, line 15, after "parliament," to insert— No person shall upon any pretence whatever make any new inclosure of lands previously uninclosed within Epping Forest until after the expiration 139 of the aforesaid period of fourteen days after the making of the said Report, or after the next meeting of Parliament, as the case may be. No person shall, until after the aforesaid period, fell or destroy any timber or timber-like trees growing on the aforesaid previously uninclosed lands.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, he objected to the Amendment, on the ground that it would subject the measure to the notices required in the case of Private Bills, and would prevent it from passing that Session.

§ MR. A. JOHNSTON
said, he saw no necessity for the insertion of this provision. There was no danger of further inclosures pending the action of Parliament.

§ MR. COWPER-TEMPLE
said, in that case, he should decline to press his Amendment.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, he would pledge himself to make inquiry in respect to any and what inclosures might have been made in the Forest.

§ MR. SCLATER - BOOTH
said, he should like to know by whom the expenses of the proposed scheme would be borne?

§ MR. AYRTON
said, until the scheme was prepared there was no fund whatever to meet the expense. The only expenditure provided for the present was for the expenses of the Commissioners. There was no provision whatever as to the expense being defrayed by the nation.

§ MR. BONHAM-CARTER
moved the rejection of the clause, which conveyed a power of agreement to carry out small schemes. It appeared to him that on the face of it it proposed to do that which had been always objected to in regard to the commons.

§ Mr. GOLDNEY and Mr. COWPER-TEMPLE
having severally urged the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his opposition,

§ MR. BONHAM-CARTER
assented.

§ MR. SCLATER-BOOTH
said, in consequence of the nature of the answer he had received from the right hon. Gentleman 140 the First Commissioner of Works, he must call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the necessity of providing the money to meet the expenditure for this scheme.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, it was intended that the Government should defray the expenses.