HC Deb 29 May 1868 vol 192 cc1103-8

SUPPLY—considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £66,314, to complete the sum for Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions, Ireland.

(2.) £11,421, to complete the sum for Common Law Courts, Ireland.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

asked how this Vote had increased £9,000?

THE EARL OF MAYO

said, a large portion of the expense for which the Vote was now taken used to be borne by the Consolidated Fund. There was also on increase owing to the Act passed last year involving the payment of their salaries to a certain number of Masters, who had been deprived of their offices,

MR. CHILDERS

said, he had advised caution in respect to the Act of last year. There was an increase of nearly £2,000 apart from the special reasons assigned.

COLONEL SYKES

said, this increase was only a drop in the ocean of the entire Vote, and the total cost of our law was about £3,000,000, while the charge in France was only £1,334,221.

MR. WHALLEY

said, but for the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) the Votes would have been much higher this year.

THE EARL OF MAYO

thought it right to say that, so far as the Government were concerned, they had done everything they could to reduce the expenditure of last year.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) £6,020, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Legal Charges, Ireland.

(4.) £6,000, to complete the sum for County Prisons, Ireland.

MR. WHALLEY

asked the cost incurred in consequence of the Fenian prisoners?

THE EARL OF MAYO

said, a portion of their expenses would be borne by the county prisons, and the charge for those who were sent to Mountjoy Prison would come under the head of the convict service. The legal expenses would come under this Vote.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £47,484, to complete the sum for Criminal Proceedings, Scotland.

(6.) £33,378, to complete the sum for Courts of Law and Justice, Scotland.

(7.) £11,909, to complete the sum for Register House Departments, Edinburgh.

(8.) £8,705, to complete the sun for Admiralty Court Registry.

(9.) £49,979, to complete the sum for Probate Court.

(10.) £3,470, to complete the sum for Land Registry Office.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, he thought the office ought to be self-supporting.

MR. GOLDNEY

reminded the Committee that this was one of the offices he had before referred to, which ought to be amalgamated with some other office, in order that it might be made to pay its own expenses.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, the attention of the Government had been directed to that office, which it had been hoped would prove self-supporting, but which had undoubtedly been a failure. The subject was now undergoing inquiry, the result of which would shortly be laid before the House.

Vote agreed to.

(11.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £160,332, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, of the Superintendence of Government Prisons in England and the Expenses of Transportation

MR. CHILDERS

said, the number of convicts in Government prisons had most materially diminished, having fallen from 9,000 to 7,000, and therefore there was a considerable want of prisoners for carrying on the public works at Chatham and Portsmouth. The result was that those public works would cost the country £500,000 more than was anticipated in consequence of the short supply of convicts-. It would be, of course, in other respects an advantage to the country if there were a decrease in the number of convicts; but he wished to ask why the Government were now proposing to take an additional Vote for conveying convicts to Gibraltar, as the convict establishment at Gibraltar had been universally condemned by every Department and was quite useless.

MR. FLOYER

said, in the Report of the Directors of Convict Prisons it was staled that there had been a decrease of charge for convicts during the last three or four years; but this year that decrease appeared to have come to an end. Indeed, there was an increase this year of £25,000. The estimated number of convicts for whom the proposed Vote was to be taken for the year 1868–9, was, according to the tabular statement and given in the Estimates, 7,750, ns against 7,470 for the year 1867–8, showing an increase of 280 convict prisoners. He hoped they would receive an explanation on that point from the Secretary to the Treasury; for it was a grave matter for the country if the improvement which had been in progress for some years past had now, without any special cause that he was aware of, ceased, and if crime of a very serious description was again on the increase.

MR. GOLDNEY

pointed out that a great number of items of expenditure connected with the management of the convict establishments, and especially the pay of the officials, showed an increase over the previous year.

COLONEL SYKES

asked why the number of convicts who were to be provided for was not given in the Estimates each year? It was now the practice to give the number of troops and seamen in the Army and Navy Estimates.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, that on the Report he should be able to give more complete information upon the point; but from general information he could state that about 200 convicts were sent to Gibraltar about two months ago, in consequence of the demand from those in charge of the works there for additional labour. As long as Gibraltar was continued, it would be necessary that the works should go on there; but as transportation had ceased, there was now no other drain upon the supply of convict labour.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the whole question of the Gibraltar establishment was gone into by a Committee three or four years ago, and it was certain that the employment of convicts there was unremunerative, while their employment at home was highly remunerative. Gibraltar did not relieve the country permanently of any convicts, as they were all returned to this country. It was only an expensive penal establishment at home.

MR. CANDLISH

asked for an explanation of a certain increase of salaries which appeared in the Vote?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that these salaries had been brought under the notice of the Treasury last year, and were revised and increased, some of them on the recommendation of the hon. Gentleman himself.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

asked why, if convict labour was so remunerative, convicts were liberated before their term of servitude had expired?

MR. LOCKE

said, with reference to the Gibraltar establishment, it was most important that they should have the opportunity of Bending criminals out of the country. Prisoners thought transportation a much more severe sentence than penal servitude at home with the prospect of a ticket-of-leave before long.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that whether a prisoner was sent to Gibraltar or kept at home, the sentence now passed was penal servitude, and the regulations respecting tickets-of-leave were the same.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, that the rules respecting the remission of sentences were exceedingly rigid, and the present system of penal servitude was anything but inviting to convicts. Tickets-of-leave were granted upon very strict conditions; those who received them being placed under strict surveillance by the police, and being sent back to prison for the remainder of their term on the smallest infraction of the rules. The system of shortening the period of imprisonments by marks given for good conduct had had a most beneficial effect upon the convicts in insuring their good behaviour during their imprisonment, and there was no fear now of a convict getting released before a fixed period of his sentence had expired.

In answer to Colonel SYKES,

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

explained that the charge for bedding and clothing varied according to the stock in hand and the requirements of the establishments.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that there was this year a diminution in the charge for Gibraltar of £10,000.

MR. CANDLISH

said, that the charge for salaries at Chatham increased, while for salaries at Dartmoor, a similar establishment, it did not. He moved the reduction of the Vote by £400.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £159,932, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1869, of the Superintendence of Government Prisons in England and the Expenses of Transportation."—(Mr. Candlish.)

MR. GATHORNE HARDY

said, that Dartmoor stood upon an entirely different footing from Chatham.

MR. WHALLEY

detailed the amounts paid to Roman Catholic chaplains in prisons, and asked upon what principle those salaries were fixed, because only 4 per cent of the prisoners asked for the ministration of Catholic priests?

SIR HENRY EDWARDS

said, the abuse of Roman Catholics by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Whalley) had been going on ad nauseam; and he hoped the hon. Gentleman's constituents, when he met them next, would ask him what his religion really was, as he thought there was ground for grave doubt on the subject.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH

said, that the chaplains were paid according to the average number of the prisoners who declared themselves Roman Catholics on entering the prison.

MR. CANDLISH

said, he would not press his Amendment.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(12.) £22,929, to complete the sum for Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum.

(13.) £16,267, to complete the sum for Prisons, Scotland.

(14.) £23,171, to complete the sum for Court of Chancery, Ireland.

(15.) £1,171, to complete the sum for Registry of Judgments, Ireland.

(16.) £9,200, to complete the sum for Registration of Deeds, Ireland.

(17.) £5,400, to complete the sum for Court of Bankruptcy and Insolvency, Ireland.

(18.) £6,272, to complete the sum for Court of Probate, Ireland.

(19.) £3,906, to complete the sum for Landed Estates Court, Ireland.

(20.) £50,488, to complete the sum for Metropolitan Police, Dublin.

(21.) £573,751, to complete the sum for Constabulary Force, Ireland.

(22.) £1,530, to complete the sum for Four Courts, Dublin.

(23.) £32,399, to complete the sum for Government Prisons and Reformatories, Ireland.

(24.) £2,376, to complete the sum for Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum.

(25.) £1,200, to complete the sum for Admiralty Court Registry, Ireland.

House resumed,

Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday next.

Committee to sit again upon Thursday next.