HC Deb 22 July 1867 vol 188 cc1897-909

SUPPLY considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Question again proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £24,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Bounties on Slaves, and Tonnage Bounties, for Expenses incurred for the Support and Conveyance of Captured Negroes, and for other Charges under the Acts for the Abolition of the Slave Trade.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

suggested, that granting bounties might be an inducement to make captures rather rashly. He hoped that, as the African slave trade was nearly extinct, some reduction might be made in the expenses.

MR. E. C. EGERTON

admitted that very large sums had been expended for the suppression of the traffic, which, he was happy to say, was now decreasing, so that the expenditure had not been fruitless. He hoped that his hon. Friend would not be too hard on Her Majesty's officers if they seized vessels which they thought were to be employed in the carrying on of the slave trade.

MR. KINNAIRD

observed, that it was a most difficult duty which the officers engaged in the suppression of the slave trade had to perform, and it was only by the constant watchfulness of our cruisers that the infamous traffic could be prevented. If the Government relaxed the very necessary precautions which were now taken there would probably be a lamentable increase of the trade.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

had no objection to payment by results, but the results of the last fifty years were very small indeed. According to the statistics which he had before him the health of the seamen on the West Coast of Africa appeared to be very little lower than it was upon the home station. In conclusion the hon. Member moved that the Vote be reduced by £5,000.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £19,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Bounties on Slaves, and Tonnage Bounties, for Expenses incurred for the Support and Conveyance of Captured Negroes, and for other Charges under the Acts for the Abolition of the Slave Trade."—(Mr. Lusk.)

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, that the system of bounties appeared to be a sort of blood money, which was hardly reconcilable with the honourable profession of arms.

MR. HENRY SEYMOUR

thought that, the whole question of the position of the slave trade, and the method employed for its suppression, required the consideration of the Government. The system of bounties was good years ago, when large numbers of slaves were exported, but there was now no market for them, except in the dominions of our allies, the Sultan of Turkey and the Pacha of Egypt. There was no market for slaves any longer in Cuba, and therefore the trade on the West Coast of Africa must die out. There was no justification for keeping some of our best ships and officers, and sacrificing the lives of our seamen on the worst station to which the British navy was sent, if there were no slaves there. The slave trade, however, was still being largely carried on from the interior of Africa across the Red Sea and into the dominions of the Pacha of Egypt, and some change was consequently necessary in the means we adopted for the suppression of the traffic in that quarter. He should like to see the Consulate revived at Khartoum.

MR. CHILDERS

thought that a very considerable reduction in the strength of the squadron on the West Coast of Africa might now be made. At the same time he was bound to say that the hon. Member for Finsbury was not accurate in the statement he made with regard to the comparative mortality on the coast of Africa and on the home station. The deaths on the coast of Africa were 57 per 1,000 annually; and the deaths on the home station were 5 per 1,000 annually. It was well known that the coast of Africa was frightfully dangerous. If the men were to forego their bounties and prize money, fresh conditions as to the engagement and entry of seamen would have to be made.

MR. LABOUCHERE

observed, that the existence of the squadron was the reason why slaves were not now sent to Cuba. There were slave brokers, however, there still, and some of the Spanish officials were willing to take bribes to allow the slaves to be landed. It always paid in Cuba to buy slaves, because the climate was so bad for them they soon died out, and the practice now was to work them out, and to renew the stock by fresh supplies when they could be obtained.

MR. HENRY SEYMOUR

thought that the observations of the hon. Member must apply to a state of things which existed in Cuba two or three years ago, but which had since been much changed in consequence of a movement now going on to liberate the slaves. The price of them had consequently gone down enormously.

MR. LABOUCHERE

said, if there was a liberation movement going on, it would be well to wait until it had taken place, before discontinuing measures for the suppression of the slave trade.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, that if the coast of Africa were so extremely unhealthy, that circumstance constituted a reason for discontinuing the squadron.

SIR JOHN HAY

confirmed the statement of the hon. Member for Pontefract, as to the relative mortality of sailors on the African coast and on the home station; and explained the small number of captures of slaves by stating that the vigilance of the squadron now generally prevented the slaves from being embarked.

LORD STANLEY

said, he looked forward with some confidence to a not distant period when the squadron would become unnecessary. What had taken place in the United States had struck a very heavy blow at the system of slavery, and he was bound to say from all he heard, even as to Cuba itself, there was a change of feeling, and people had begun to doubt the policy or expediency of bringing in fresh negroes there. At the same time, he did not think it would be wise suddenly or at one blow to take away the establishment on the African coast. By doing that we should place a great temptation in the way of those persons who, at this moment, were beginning to see the mistake of their system, and to adopt a better one. He was as favourable as any one to the reduction of the squadron; at the same time, we were bound by treaties on the subject, and any violent transition was certainly not expedient.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £6,450, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for suppressing the Traffic in Slaves.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £5,450, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for suppressing the Traffic in Slaves."—(Mr. Childers.)

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question again proposed.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £5,750, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for suppressing the Traffic in Slaves,"—(Mr. Childers,) —put, and agreed to.

(3.) £124,188, to complete the sum for Consuls abroad.

MR. MONK

asked whether the offices of Consul General and the Judge of the Consular Court at Constantinople had been merged into one? He also inquired if the fees of certain small Consulships were still retained by the Consuls, or whether they were paid into the Treasury and the Consuls remunerated by a salary?

LORD STANLEY

said, that in the case of all Consulates which had become vacant since the change of system as regarded payment, the fees were received by the Treasury and the Consuls were paid by salary. Since 1860 the fees received by the Treasury had increased from £4,400 to very nearly £18,000. Consuls appointed before the change was made continued to be paid in part by fees.

MR. LABOUCHERE

called attention to the present system of paying clerks in the Foreign Office, who acted as agents to the Consuls, a certain percentage on their salaries. It was very much objected to by the Consular service, and it would be very desirable to have it abolished as speedily as possible. Under it between £4,000 and £5,000 a year found its way into the pockets of certain clerks in the Foreign Office.

LORD STANLEY

said, he had, to a certain extent, investigated the subject with a view to an alteration, but as yet he had not been able to see his way clear to do so. It was not a system it would be desirable to establish if it did not already exist. He did not find, however, that it was so unpopular as the hon. Member had represented. Some of the Consuls considered it a convenience rather than otherwise, and he believed that complaints against it were few. It was a complicated matter, and he could give no pledge except that he would examine it again in the Recess.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £103,983, to complete the sum for Services in China, Japan and Siam.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

complained that the establishments in these countries cost a much larger sum than they ought to do, some of the salaries which were paid being very great.

LORD STANLEY

No doubt these services in China and Japan are highly paid for; but the Estimate has been gone through over and over again, and carefully revised, and I think I can affirm that the scale at which salaries are now paid is more a matter of necessity than of choice. It must be remembered that the Chinese coast is one of the most unhealthy to which a man can be sent; the mortality is great. There is the competition of mercantile houses, which in effect fixes the minimum of possible salary. There is the necessity of residing in a remote and disagreeable country. There is the necessity of studying the language, which is a labour no man will undertake except with the assurance of being employed. On the whole, it seems inevitable that work in China should be paid for more expensively than elsewhere.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £26,000, to complete the sum for Ministers at Foreign Courts, Extraordinary Expenses.

MR. CHILDERS

asked whether the time had not now come for placing the whole expenses in connection with foreign embassies in the annual Estimates? There may have been good reasons for the Civil List arrangements in former times; but, now that a considerable part of the Foreign Office expenditure was voted, there appeared no reason why the whole should not be. Besides, he saw no difference between the salaries of Ministers at home and abroad.

LORD STANLEY

supposed the Committee would not expect him to give a definite answer to this question at once. It would be reasonable for him to ask the same question of his hon. Friend (Mr. Childers) who had been for some time in a position to make the change he asked for. He was quite ready, however, to examine into the matter at some future time, as it was a very fair proposition to make. But it was clear that the Foreign Office might take credit to itself for the way in which expenditure of this description had been kept down during the last five-and-twenty years. Our diplomatists were not more highly paid than during the last generation, although the price of living had risen throughout Europe, probably not less than 30 or 40 per cent.

MR. LABOUCHERE

remarked that the reason these items did not appear on the Estimates was that formerly they were paid out of the Civil List of the Sovereign. He thought good reason existed for doing away with the anomaly complained of. What reason was there for an Embassy at Würtemberg or at Dresden? When he was at Dresden he found that the Ambassador had positively nothing to do; and being curious to see when anything had been done, he searched the archives and found that the last despatch home had been written in 1819.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding, £26,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for Special Missions, Diplomatic Outfits, and Conveyance and Entertainment of Colonial Officers and others.

MR. POLLARD-URQUHART

objected to the excessive item of £6,610 for Mr. Rassam's mission to Abyssinia. A friend of his had lived in Abyssinia for three years, and it had cost him only £1,000.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

said, it would be better if some items of expenditure were not particularized. It would be unpleasant to the feelings of some persons to contrast the item "Expenses of investing the Kings of Portugal and Denmark and Grand Duke of Hesse with the Order of the Garter, £2,537 3s. 10d," with the next to it, which set down £17 16s. 9d. for investing the Bey of Tunis with the Grand Cross of the Bath.

MR. LABOUCHERE

thought that special missions to carry out Orders to foreign potentates were relics of the past that ought to be put an end to.

SIR J. CLARKE JERVOISE

moved to reduce the Vote by the item of £1,728 9s. 9d., the expenses of the "British Medical Commission on Cholera at Constantinople." It was very doubtful whether it was wise to appoint this Commission, and as they had made no Report, the House had no knowledge from any results whether they had been to Constantinople at all.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Item of £1,728 9s. 9d., for Expenses of British Medical Commission on Cholera at Constantinople be omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Sir J. Clarke Jervoise.)

LORD STANLEY

said, the Commission was appointed before he came into office. As the East was the part of the world from which the cholera proceed to Western Europe, it was only natural to suppose that a Sanitary Commission to Constantinople would be useful. The Commission had not been idle, for he had received from time to time voluminous Reports from it. Before the end of the Session he should be prepared to lay everything on the table. At all events, the members of the Commission who had been sent out having done their work, it would be absurd now to refuse to pay what had been promised them.

MR. LABOUCHERE

believed that the Commission was sent out at the request of the Turkish Government.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(7.) £1,658, to complete the sum for Third Secretaries to Embassies.

(8.) £23,000, to complete the sum for Temporary Commissions.

(9.) £23,410, to complete the sum for Patent Law Expenses.

(10.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £11,667, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Fisheries in Scotland.

MR. LAMONT

moved that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £5,771 15s., being the amount of the salaries and miscellaneous expenses of the Scottish Fishery Board for six months. The Board had all along been a nest of jobbery, and had never attempted to enforce the restrictions which it was desirable to maintain.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £5,895 5s., be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Fisheries in Scotland."—(Mr. Lamont.)

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY

looked upon the Amendment as a proposal to abolish the Scotch Fishery Board, the duties of which would not be so heavy as they had been in consequence of an Act recently passed, but it would still have important functions to discharge. Long line and seine net fishermen were constantly interfering with each other, and the Fishery Board were better able to regulate such matters than officers of the navy or any other authorities. He thought that the fisheries of Scotland had very much benefited by the action of the Board.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

was of opinion that, after the legislation which had taken place, the Fishery Board was of no use at all. He hoped there would be some reduction in the future charge under this head.

MR. BLAKE

supported the Vote. The Board had done good work in the promotion of the fisheries in Scotland. This had been shown very distinctly by the evidence of Mr. Primrose, the secretary of the Fishery Board, before the Committee of which he was a member, and he was much surprised that two Scotchmen were found to oppose the Vote.

MR. LAMONT

admitted, that the Scotch fisheries had prospered, but not in consequence of the action of the Board, but rather in spite of it.

MR. HUNT

said, that if the Board were abolished it would be necessary to repeal several Acts of Parliament.

SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMERY

defended the Fishery Board, which had been most effective and successful.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(11.) £39,948, to complete the sum for Dues payable under Treaties of Reciprocity.

(12.) £1,700, to complete the sum for Inspection of Corn Returns.

MR. READ

said, that in consequence of the corn having passed through three or four hands before its price was returned, the averages considerably exceeded the price received by the growers. It would be preferable if the dealers were only to return the price they paid to the actual growers, and not that which they paid the intermediate dealers.

MR. HUNT

expressed a hope that the hon. Member for Norfolk would communicate with the President of the Board of Trade, with the view of suggesting a remedy for the evil complained of.

Vote agreed to.

(13.) £550, Boundary Survey, Ireland.

(14.) £416, Publication of Brehon Laws, Ireland.

MR. MONK

asked when this publication would be completed?

MR. HUNT

replied that it would occupy thirteen volumes, two of which would be published every year.

Vote agreed to.

(15.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £2,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for encouraging the cultivation of Flax in the South and West of Ireland.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

objected to this Vote, which was wrong in principle. It looked like a bribe to the people of Ireland. Unless the Government would give him a pledge to reduce it by £1,000 next year, he would move an Amendment.

MR. MAGUIRE

hoped the Government would not be deterred from continuing the grant which was not of the nature of a bribe; it was simply an expenditure incurred in order to teach the people a forgotten trade, from which the country would hereafter profit. There were several thousands of acres in Munster already dedicated to the growth of flax, and in Cork city at that moment there were 20,000 spindles at work.

MR. HUNT

submitted that in the present state of Ireland it was most important to encourage the growth of flax in the South and West of Ireland, as well as in the North, where it had conferred so many benefits on the country.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK

insisted that the Vote was indefensible, and very much like a job; he moved that it be reduced to £1,000.

Motion made, and Question, That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1868, for encouraging the Cultivation of Flax in the South and West of Ireland."—(Mr. Lusk.)

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS

hoped his hon. Friend would not press his Amendment, as he would probably stand alone.

Motion put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(16.) £780, Malta and Alexandria Telegraph and Telegraph Companies.

(17.) £10,000, Collection of Agricultural Statistics, Great Britain.

MR. READ

asked when the Returns for the present year would be published, and why the number of horses in Great Britain was not returned as was the case in Ireland? He thought the Returns should be made more trustworthy than at present, and include the correct acreage of the crops cultivated.

MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLE

asked whether the Returns were all filled up?

MR. BRADY

said, an experienced farmer had told him that the Returns were useless, and that they would continue to be so unless made compulsory.

MR. HUNT

said, the Returns would no doubt be more complete if they were made compulsory instead of voluntary; but there was a great difficulty in the way of making them compulsory. This arrangement might, in fact, be considered only experimental at present. Since the cattle disease, however, the farmers had been more ready to make the Returns; but, as they were not yet in the form to be published, he could not say whether they were more complete.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

wished to know, whether the police could not be employed in England and Scotland as they were in Ireland in collecting this information?

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

said, that the Irish constabulary were a very different body from the English police. He did not think the farmers of England and Scotland would like to receive visits from the police in the place of the officers of Inland Revenue, who now obtained the statistics. It took some time to get these Returns in and to reduce them to a tabular form; but all depended on the willingness of the persons concerned to supply the information. The attempt to obtain these statistics was only made two years ago, and it was still to be regarded as an experiment.

MR. READ

wished to know, why horses were not included?

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

believed that the Returns this year included more particulars than last year, and it might be possible another year to obtain particulars of horses. The reason why they were not included was, that it was deemed advisable to proceed by steps.

In answer to Mr. GOLDNEY,

MR. STEPHEN CAVE

said, that the expenses of the statistics were pretty equally divided between the officers of Inland Revenue and the postage and printing of the Returns. The officers of Inland Revenue devoted a great deal of time, and incurred considerable expense, in obtaining these Returns.

Vote agreed to.

(18.) £791, to complete the sum for the Household of the late King of the Belgians.

(19.) £791, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Expenses formerly defrayed from Civil Contingencies.

MR. MONK

said, he observed an item in the Vote for £400 for Ross's Parliamentary Record. He presumed that was the publication which was to be found in the Library. If so, he thought it was a very inexpensive periodical, probably not costing more than 5s. or 10s. for the Session. He wished to know, how many copies were necessary for the public departments? He should scarcely think £400 necessary for it, as it contained remarkably little information.

MR. HUNT

said, that the arrangement for this work was made a few years ago. In consequence, he believed, of a memorial presented to the late Lord Palmerston by a large number of Members of the House, there had been a Vote towards Mr. Ross's Parliamentary Record, it being supposed that the sale would not cover the expenses of the publication. At that time arrangements were made, he believed, for supplying 200 copies for the public departments. He was not certain as to the number; but that arrangement had continued ever since.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

said, that this was one of the most valuable periodical publications they had in connection with Parliamentary reports. He took much trouble in looking up Parliamentary matters, and it was always to the Parliamentary Record to which persons first referred to find what they wanted. Its price was to be accounted for by the great expense attending its production; in its having to be entirely re-printed weekly, as the Session progressed, in order to keep up the necessary information required from time to time.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the publication was brought under the attention of the Treasury on the strong recommendation of a number of Members of Parliament and gentlemen connected with the public departments, whose acquaintance with Parliamentary business had been greatly facilitated by the simple but satisfactory publication that went on throughout the Session. It was essential to the public Departments that they should have a certain number of copies; and he was bound to say that he thought this was a very economical expenditure for a purpose of this kind. He wished to know, what the Government intended to do with regard to a small Committee appointed some time ago to examine into the system under which fees were received and accounted for, especially on appointments?

MR. GOLDNEY

referred to the expense for robes, collars, badges, &c., for the Knights of the several Orders, and thought that that item ought to be included in the investigation which the hon. Member for Pontefract desired to be instituted.

SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN

noticed an item of £27 2s. for repairs to the Speaker's State carriage in 1860 and 1861, and wished to know, why the Bill had remained so long unpaid?

MR. HUNT

could not say why the bill for the Speaker's coach was not paid before. Perhaps the credit was good, and the coachmaker did not send in his account. A small Treasury Commission had been appointed before the change of Government to inquire respecting fees chargeable on appointments to public offices, and they had not reported before the change took place. A short time ago the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City, who was on the Commission, informed him that they were prepared to make a Report. It was not a Royal Commission, and the question was, did it not lapse by the change of Government? Another Commission so appointed had lapsed, and it was arranged that this Commission should be also considered as having lapsed, and that the Gentlemen composing it should, in a statement to the Government, set forth what they were prepared to report. That would be as good as a Report, and when received at the Treasury would be carefully considered for the purpose of seeing if they could carry out any suggestion that had been made.

MR. ESMONDE

called attention to the fact that gentlemen intending to be called to the Bar in Ireland paid a stamp duty there, which was supposed to be enough to cover the expense of the stamp required on account of certain necessary attendances in the Inns of Court in England. Nevertheless, the stamp duty was demanded from them in England, and then they had to go through some circuitous process to get the money repaid to them.

MR. HUNT

said, he was not aware that that was the case, but the subject would be inquired into if the hon. Member sent a memorandum respecting it to the Treasury.

Vote agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again To-morrow, at Twelve of the clock.