HC Deb 11 May 1866 vol 183 cc834-40

(13.) £3,750, Ecclesiastical Commissioners.

(14) £18,500, to complete the sum for Temporary Commissions.

(15.) £21,292, to complete the sum for Patent Law Expenses.

COLONEL SYKES

asked what became of the fees taken in the Patent Office. The Vote represented outgoings from the Consolidated Fund, but he presumed there were some fees which were received from patentees. He would like to know what was the amount of them, and how they were appropriated?

MR. CHILDERS

explained that the amount of the fees was published, and that he believed they amounted this year to £110,000.

Vote agreed to.

(16.) £11,462, to complete the sum for Fishery Board Scotland.

(17.) £2,100, Board of Manufactures, Scotland.

(18.) £39,948, to complete the sum for Dues on Shipping under Treaties of Reciprocity.

(19.) £2,800, Inspectors of Corn Returns.

MR. READ

asked in how many towns the Corn Returns had been discontinued in the present year?

MR. CHILDERS

could not say from memory but he believed in three or four.

MR. WALDEGRAVE-LESLIE

wanted to know what became of the Corn Returns when they were made?

MR. CHILDERS

explained that they were made by Act of Parliament, and published in the Gazette, and stated that they were exceedingly useful.

Vote agreed to.

(20.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £500, be grantee to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1867, for adjusting and defining the Boundaries of Counties, Baronies and Parishes in Ireland.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Darby Griffith.)

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to,

(21.) £416, Ancient Laws and Institutes, Ireland.

GENERAL DUNNE

observed, that he did not think the Government had dealt with the Brehon laws in a satisfactory manner, and intimated his intention of bringing the whole subject of the Irish Records before the House on a future occasion.

MR. CHILDERS

said, hon. Members had doubtless Been the paper which he laid on the table of the House a few nights ago, on which occasion he stated what the Government had done with regard to the Records and other historical documents of the three Kingdoms, and at the same time offered suggestions as to what should be the future arrangements with respect to them. As, however, his hon. and gallant Friend proposed to raise the question on some future day in a general form he would not now further dwell on it.

MR. BENTINCK

having had some experience of the Record Office, testified to the ability of Messrs. Hardy and Brewer, and observed that these gentlemen went to Dublin during the vacation, and, instead of taking their leisure, spent their time in investigating the Irish Records for the benefit of the country.

MR. O'REILLY

observed, that the investigation of Messrs. Hardy and Brewer had not the slightest connection with the Brehon laws.

Vote agreed to.

(22.) £3,000, Flax-Cultivation, Ireland.

COLONEL SYKES

remarked that Votes of this kind were mischievous in principle, and was curious to know in what way this encouragement of the cultivation of flax in Ireland was managed.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, this small grant was made for a very good purpose. It had been continued for three years, and the object of the grant was explained in aid of local associations for the purpose of sending instructors to teach the farmers in the south and west of Ireland how to grow and prepare flax according to the improved method followed in Belgium and Scotland; and he had the satisfaction of informing the House that this course had been attended with considerable success.

MR. ESMONDE

asked, whether if an application were to be made from Leinster the benefit which was extended to Ulster, in respect to the cultivation of flax, would he conceded to the former province?

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the grant had been made to those districts most requiring aid. The object of the hon. Member for the county of Waterford, however, would be met by leaving out the words "south and west," and then it would be open for the Treasury to receive applications from other parts of the country; but he did not undertake that any such applications would be complied with.

Words "south and west" omitted.

Vote agreed to.

(23.) £780, Malta and Alexandria Telegraph.

(24.) £10,000, Agricultural Statistics.

MR. GOLDNEY

asked for some explanation of the mode in which this large item had been expended. In the agricultural districts with which he was connected, the only returns which had come to hand were those connected with the live stock of the country.

MR. WATKIN

said, that two years ago, on the Motion of Mr. Caird, the House declared itself in favour of a complete system of agricultural statistics. It ought to be stated how the present system was a compliance with that expressed opinion of the House.

MR. READ

asked, whether it was intended to give returns of the acreage, corn, and agricultural statistics of the country generally, and, if so, when?

MR. MILNER GIBSON

said, it had been thought desirable in the first instance to take an account of all the live stock in the kingdom, as a piece of information very useful to agriculturists. The returns were entirely voluntary, but he was informed that the farmers and holders of stock generally, encouraged by the magistrates, the boards of guardians, and the lords-lieutenant of counties, had all shown a desire to give the fullest information. It was the intention of the Govern- ment in like manner to endeavour to obtain by voluntary returns the acreage under cultivation, so that an approximate idea at least might be formed of the whole amount of the produce of the country. The returns had been obtained through the intervention of the superior officers of the Board of Inland Revenue, who distributed through the country, by means of the post, the schedules prepared by the Board of Trade. The notion at first entertained by some occupiers, that these returns were asked for with a view to increased taxation, had been entirely dispelled. It was impossible at present to say what exact amount of expenditure would have to be defrayed out of the Vote of £10,000.

MR. GOLDNEY

asked, whether this £10,000 had been or would be paid to the Excise officers in addition to their ordinary salaries? Excisemen were not, as it seemed to him, the proper parties to collect this valuable information, which would he much more readily given to local agents of respectability and influence, the cost of whose employment would be amply covered by the Vote of £10,000.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

explained that excisemen were not employed to collect the information; the surveyors, being high officers of the Board of Inland Revenue, sent the schedules to the farmers. It was the superior officers who were employed, and the returns were voluntarily made by the fanners. The cattle returns could only be regarded as an experiment, and some little time would be required before the Government could state finally the course which they would take regarding the agricultural statistics generally,

MR. GOLDNEY

thought it very desirable that the Government should give the fullest and earliest information as to the agents through whom the farmers were to make their returns.

MR. AKLAND

expressed a hope that the existing uncertainty as to what Member of the Government was really responsible for sealing with these agricultural questions would be removed, as it was most important that the farming interest should know and have confidence in the Minister to whom the conduct of such matters was intrusted. If the county Members would assist to dissipate some of the prejudices on this question they would benefit greatly not only producers but consumers, The transfer of the hon. Member, late Under Secretary for the Home Department, who was thoroughly conversant with these matters, to the Admiralty was a great loss to the agricultural interest.

MR. READ

urged upon the President of the Board of Trade the necessity of attempting to get these statistics before the harvest, if the attempt to get them was to he made at all; otherwise the matter had better be put off till next year.

MR. FLOYER

wished to know whether, if it was intended to extend those inquiries into the quantity of land under cultivation and the different modes of cropping it, those inquiries would be conducted by the same agency as was now used to obtain similar information with regard to cattle, He believed it would tend to remove apprehension from the minds of the agriculturists if they were assured that there would be no change made either in the method or in the instrumentalities hitherto employed for that purpose.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

, as at present advised, was not aware of any intention to change the mode of obtaining these returns, or to employ any agency different from that hitherto adopted. Any disclosure of the number of cattle possessed by an individual farmer, or of anything connected with his particular affairs, was carefully avoided. All that was made public was an aggregate amount, and the same principle would be applied when they took the acreage under cultivation as was applied in ascertaining the quantities of live stock. The Government trusted to the farmer for the information; and the whole matter was one of a voluntary character.

MR. HENLEY

thought the President of the Board of Trade was very fortunate in the mode by which he had endeavoured to deal with that long-vexed question. On the one hand, the right hon. Gentleman had disarmed jealousy, and, on the other hand, he had provided means. That matter came up for the first time some sixteen years ago, when Lord Halifax was Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he modestly proposed that the country people should pay for the returns themselves. That immediately set their backs up, and they said, "If you want it, you should pay for it." Various schemes were then proposed, and people were afraid of this thing and afraid of that; and if it were now to be attempted to obtain those returns by local authority, he was sure they would have people's backs up again, and would not get the statistics half so easily and correctly as they now did. At present it was understood that the information was to go to a central body, and that nobody would know anything of any man's affairs, the whole matter being published in a general shape, and collected at the expense of the community at large, because the public benefited by it. The right hon. Gentleman was very happy in the way he had commenced his operations, and it was to be hoped he would go on in the same manner. Then, no doubt, in a short time, perhaps in one or two years, he would get matters into a working order. Next year care should be taken not to ask for the quantities of stock in the lambing season, because they could not then expect to get returns that would he worth much.

MR. ESMONDE

asked why, when a Vote of £10,000 was proposed for the collection of these statistics in England, some proportionate grant was not made for the same purpose in Ireland. In Ireland these statistics were collected by the constabulary, a body whose proper functions were entirely of a different nature, and who, he would remind the Government, were very much underpaid; and therefore, when the pay of that force was under reconsideration, the fact that it had that extra duty thrown upon it ought certainly not to be left out of sight.

Vote agreed to.

(25.) £7,293, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Expenses from Civil Contingencies.

MR. MONK

asked how it happened that a Vote of £525 was taken for professional services rendered by Mr. A. J. Stephens in preparing rules and orders under the Ecclesiastical Courts and Registries Act (Ireland)?

MR. CHILDERS

said, that there was no authority to charge the expense on Ecclesiastical Funds, and it could only be defrayed out of the present item.

MR. READ

asked for an explanation of the item of £954 for distressed Polish refugees. They appeared to be already provided for by a previous Vote of £2,296, which was stated in a foot note to be gradually diminishing.

SIR JERVOISE JERVOISE

wished to know why part of the Vote was set apart for inspectors of sheep?

MR. CHILDERS

said, that there was an increase of claims from distressed Polish refugees arising from the Polish troubles of the year before last. Lord Palmerston, a few months before his death, sanctioned the present allowance, which would not be an annual charge.

MR. POLLARD-URQUHART

wished to know the meaning of the item of £4,999, value of biscuit supplied from navy stores at Malta for Circassian exiles."

MR. CHILDERS

said, that there was a terrible famine among the Circassian exiles, and the Government sent a quantity of biscuit from Malta for their relief. It was thought better that the cash value of the biscuit should appear in the Estimates, in order that the House might know what had been done.

GENERAL DUNNE

said, that this prompt supply of biscuit for the poor Circassians did honour to the country, and he, for one, thanked the Government for it. What was the meaning of the payment to Captain Succi of £387 for the "illegal detention of his ship at the Sulina mouth of the Danube in June, 1854?"

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the vessel was detained in 1854, on the eve of the Russian War. The claim was not made till 1858–9. It was referred to arbitration, and reduced from £2,400 to the amount now proposed to be voted.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

complained of the item of £1,500 for robes, collars, and badges for the Knights of the several Orders. He observed, too, an item of £347 for fees payable on Installation of His Royal Highness Prince Alfred as a Knight of the Thistle,

MR. CHILDERS

said, that this item exhibited a considerable reduction compared with last year. It was thought only reasonable that these fees should be paid for the Knights. He could not give the details of the fees on the installation of Prince Alfred, but he would state to the Committee that this was a usual charge on the installation of foreign personages and of Members of the Royal Family.

Vote agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next.

Committee to sit again upon Monday next.