§ SUPPLY considered in Committee:—ARMY ESTIMATES.
§ (In the Committee.)
§
(1.) Original Question again proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £811,400, be granted to Her Majesty to defray the Charge of the Superintending Establishment of, and Expenditure for, Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1866, inclusive.
SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, he wished to learn from the noble Marquess the reasons which induced the Government to increase their barrack accommodation while they contemplated a reduction in the number of our troops. He perceived that there was an Estimate for the purchase of Warley barracks. Those barracks were sold to the East India Company, and he wished to know whether they were to be purchased back from the Company, and, if so, whether at the same or at an increased price. There was also an item for the purchase of land and additions to the infantry barracks at Windsor upon which he should like to receive some information. Those barracks were only required for the accommodation of Her Majesty's Guards. But as there was to be a reduction in the number of men in the battalions of the Guards, and as the barracks were considered large enough for that portion of our army when they were maintained at their full strength, he wished to know why additional accommodation was now required for them. There was an item, too, for the conversion of Haslar barracks into a hospital. He never knew any barrack that was more unfit for conversion into a hospital than Haslar Barracks. The expense would be £7,500, and he saw no necessity whatever for this step. Under the head of Woolwich a sum of £26,000 was taken "for erecting stabling for the military train and for converting the garrison hospital into a barrack." He should like to know what would be the cost of each of these operations, and what troops the hospital, when converted, was to receive. He regretted that Parliament had given its assent to the erection of a new hospital at Woolwich because the old hospital had been considered to afford ample accommodation for the sick of the 244 garrison, even in times when the amount of sickness was above the present average. Then as to items abroad. Under the head of Bermuda there was a sum for the defences of the dockyard and for the naval anchorage. He remembered the importance of that item being pressed on the House, and no one who knew the importance of these defences could doubt the advisability of granting the money now asked for readily. He found that £35,000 was to be voted in the present year, and a much larger sum hereafter; but if there was a pressing urgency for the completion of the defences of Canada it was still more necessary that Bermuda should be put in a good state of defence, so as to he able to receive and protect our vessels in case of damage. He thought it behoved the Government to press these works forward with as much zeal as the works in Canada. Then there was a sum of £10,300 for officers' quarters at Gibraltar. They ought to know for what these quarters were required. Then there was a Vote for officers' quarters at Fort Ricasoli, at Malta, and some explanation ought to be given of that Vote. For the defences of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, the total Estimate was £190,000, of which £45,000 had been expended, and £35,000 was to be taken for the ensuing year, leaving £110,000 to be hereafter voted. These were works of vital importance, and ought to be pressed forward with all possible speed. Would the expenditure of £35,000 render these colonies defensible, or would it only go towards making the defences complete at some future day? The mere collection of stones and other materials would do little or nothing for immediate defence. Money enough ought to be taken to enable those materials to be applied to defensive purposes at the earliest period. The Government ought to take as much money as could be rendered available for the progress of the fortifications between this time and the corresponding period of next year. It had been said that there was a scarcity of skilled labour; let that be supplied by sending out some companies of engineer soldiers which are composed almost exclusively of artificers. The defences of Mauritius were so nearly completed that it would have been as well to have taken this year the £19,000 which was needed to finish them, as the £10,000 which the House was asked to vote. Upon the defence of commercial harbours we have already expended £154,000, leaving 245 with the £10,000 asked for this year £280,000 to be spent. The House ought to know whether the Government intended to lay out the whole of that sum upon the works originally contemplated; and especially what they intended to do at such harbours as Newhaven—which the Duke of Wellington described as one of the most important points along our coast as a harbour for gunboats, occupying as it does so important a position immediately opposite the coast of France. As to the Clyde and the Tyne, he regretted that they should be left so defenceless, for in case of war, if our fleet were worsted, there would not be room to refit them in the Government basins and docks of the Channel, but they would have to be taken into the commercial rivers or into the Medway. He should be glad to hear something from the noble Marquess as to the intention of Government with respect to these rivers.
§ SIR HARRY VERNEYsaid, that in referring to the item of £10,000 for stabling of a more permanent character than that at present existing in camp at Aldershot, he wished to know whether Government intended to make any change with regard to that military station. Nothing could be more useful than to have a camp of instruction during the summer. But it was the universal feeling among the officers of the army that a sufficient amount of training for the troops might be obtained by placing them under canvas during the summer months, without compelling them to undergo the inconvenience and discomfort of living in huts during the winter, especially considering the short period the troops had to remain in England. The hardships undergone by the soldiers at Aldershot were regarded as one of the greatest objections to a military life; and, therefore, he was desirous of knowing whether it was the intention of Government to perpetuate the occupation of Aldershot, as would appear to be the case by their proposal to erect permanent stables there. He further asked to be informed why the general commanding the forces at Aldershot was obliged to rent a house two or three miles away from the camp, while there were three empty huts in its proximity suitable for his accommodation, reserved for the use of high official personages. He thought it a pity that the commander should not live on the spot, for, to compare the practice here with that of France, he (Sir Harry Verney) had visited 246 the camp at Chalons, and not only did the general live within the camp, but the Emperor stayed there when he paid the army a visit. He could not agree with the hon. Gentleman who had objected to the erection of the Military Hospital at Woolwich, as he regarded that building as being one of the greatest boons to the army. So far from its being unnecessary it was a fact, that at the time when it was decided to build that hospital, the invalids were living in tents around the other hospital, from want of accommodation. The sanitary condition of the army was now so very much improved that there was reason to expect that in future the average would only be 4 per cent of sick in hospital. It was now between 3 and 4 per cent, whereas it used to be between 6 and 7 per cent, and at that time the authorities required provision to be made at the rate of 10 per cent. The Herbert Hospital at Woolwich, together with Netley, would go far towards perfecting the general hospital system, and he was happy to find that it was intended to erect a third at Devonport. With regard to the defences of Canada, he should like to know whether Colonel Jervois's plan had received the approval of that able officer Sir John Burgoyne. The army felt that any system of defence which met with Sir John Burgoyne's approval must be one of the greatest value and importance.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that he objected to the system adopted by the War Department of increasing the amounts originally voted by the House for specific works by certain additional sums which, as no notice was given of them, might be passed over without due inquiry. He also objected to the throwing away £3,000 for improving the defences of the Tower of London, which could be riddled through and through by guns from batteries placed above them, say at the Trinity House, which were exposed to musketry fire from every store, and St. Katharine's Docks, and which could not exist an hour if attacked by modern artillery. He had himself some years since, when Clerk of the Ordnance, with the assistance of the Secretary at War, put a stop to these ridiculous works. He did not know whether barracks were wanted there, but he was glad to see expenses were to be incurred for drainage and other works at Gibraltar, which he trusted would include the supply of water to Point Europa, where some years since the soldiers were compelled to buy it. 247 He also called attention to the insufficient hospital accommodation at Bermuda, where in 1853 great mortality had been caused by the yellow fever. Although the attention of Government was then called to this fact—by a special Report forwarded to the War Department condemning the hospital and suggesting various sanitary improvements—no steps had been taken to alter the state of things, and the result was that the disease had again broken out a short time since, when no less than 100 men were lost out of the regiment stationed there. Out of a total expenditure of £800,000 for the defences of the Empire, only £37,000 was devoted to the defence of Ireland; and yet Ireland was called on to pay more than her proportion of the £5,000,000 raised for fortifications. Would it be asserted that in case of war Ireland was not to be defended, or that Ireland was indefensible, were America to attack us? Was it to be doubted that Ireland was the point where she would attempt invasion? In the French war Ireland had been attempted at more than one point. At Bantry Bay the army of Hocke had only not succeeded, and yet all the fortifications for its defence were mouldering or in ruins, while sums were thrown away in erecting useless batteries merely for Volunteers to practice gunnery. He might ask, was Ireland to be considered a part of the Empire, or to be delivered to an enemy in time of war? In that country they would not trust the militia with the custody of arms, nor were Volunteers to be enlisted—yet he well knew, and the Government could not deny, the most distinguished officers commanding in Ireland had made Reports to the Government of the necessity for better defences in that part of the Empire. He hoped the noble Marquess would direct the attention of the Secretary for War to this among other points that had been mentioned in the course of the discussion on the Army Estimates.
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, that he concurred in the remarks which had been made as to the enormous sums spent at Alder-shot. There had never been any system more mismanaged than our camp system, and for our army it was one of the greatest curses that had ever existed. There was one point which particularly struck him in the Army Estimates year after year, and that was the increase in the establishments. Great credit had been taken for reductions, but the reduction in the Army Estimates for the year had not been caused by any 248 economy in the Departments, but simply by a reduction in the number of men, because he believed we could not get them. In the present Estimates there were items that did not appear last year. The charges for the allowances to three officers of the Royal Engineers, temporary draughtsmen, &c., and the establishment of clerks at the War Office, exceeded by nearly £2,000 the charge of last year.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONBefore the noble Lord answers the various inquiries that have been put to him, I wish to ask him a question with reference to the items charged in the Estimates for the defences of Bermuda and Halifax. I find both in the Army and Navy Estimates an unusual number of Votes of the greatest possible importance to the defences both at home and abroad. The Estimates, on account of which these Votes are to be taken, include in the aggregate a very large sum of money, especially for our home defences; but I find that in almost every case insignificant sums only, comparatively speaking, are taken for the present year. And I cannot help regarding with some suspicion the motives of the Government in asking this year for portions of those Votes, so entirely insignificant both with regard to the magnitude of the objects in view and with the total sum to be expended. A worse or more unworthy policy I can hardly imagine than that when a Government has decided that a large sum ought to he expended in constructing important works for the defence of the country—and they have no reason to suppose that Parliament will take exception to them—they should be spreading the Votes over a great number of years; and I can suppose no other reason for anything so unprecedented of itself than timidity of swelling the Estimates for the current year. It is both unwise and impolitic, and there can be no doubt that a desire to keep down the expenditure is the reason for proposing so small a Vote for the defences of Canada. I now find there is a Vote of £35,000 for Bermuda, and also a Vote of £35,000 for Halifax, and what I wish to ask the noble Marquess is, whether or not he is prepared to state upon his official responsibility that these two sums are as much as can be properly expended in the current year? If he is not prepared. to do that, I think the Government are failing in their duty in not asking for a larger sum. I will accept the noble Marquess's assurance in the face of Parliament on his official responsibility that more than 249 is asked for cannot be expended in the current year, but if he cannot give that assurance, why then I say that the Government are failing in their duty in not asking for a larger sum.
§ MR. AYRTONthought that the Government was to be commended for not making a larger demand for those works. It appeared to him that the course they had taken was a very natural one, especially in the last Session of a Parliament. The Government would shortly have to account to the constituencies, and therefore it was natural that at the present moment they should be more than usually mindful of the public interest. The Government were not to be blamed for not proposing to expend more on these very unsatisfactory establishments abroad, in order to gratify hon. Gentlemen opposite.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that with reference to the "allowance to those officers of Royal Engineers especially employed," increased from £766 last year to £1,150, it had been caused by the fact that this year we had undertaken new works at Bermuda, in Canada and at Halifax. For the same reason there was a charge for additional draughtsmen who must be employed at the commencement of those works to prepare the plans necessary for the contractors. It did not follow that they would be employed during the whole progress of the works. The increase in the Vote for clerks at the War Office was occasioned by the transfer of those charges from Vote 18 to this Vote. Objection had been taken to the Vote of £60,000 towards the purchase money of Warley Barracks, which formerly belonged to the Indian Government. It was resolved at the amalgamation of the Indian and Imperial armies to take those barracks for the Crown. He could not give the former history of these barracks, or answer the question whether they had been originally built by the Indian Government, but the price paid was arrived at by a proper valuation made by competent persons. Some remarks had been made upon the item for the reform of the eastern defences, Tower of London; but, as the Vote was only £2,000—the residue of £11,500—to complete the work, it was hardly worth while to criticize it. It was not pretended that the work ever would be of the least use for defence against an enemy; but, as all the ancient fortifications of the Tower of London were falling into decay, if it were wished to preserve 250 the character of the building, it was necessary to expend some money upon repairs. The next item which he had to notice was the Vote of £5,500 for converting barracks into an hospital at Haslar. The hon. and gallant Member opposite said that Haslar Barracks were wholly unsuited for an hospital, but that opinion was not shared by the Barrack and Hospital Committee, who had reported that those barracks were peculiarly fitted for the purposes of an hospital. The reason why those barracks had become available was that a considerable amount of barrack accommodation had been provided in the new works at Gosport, but no additional hospital accommodation had been provided for the garrison of those works. With respect to the item—£26,000—for erecting stabling for the Military Train, and converting the garrison hospital at Woolwich into barracks, he might observe that hitherto no barrack accommodation had been provided for the Military Train, who had been quartered in huts for the whole year at Aldershot and at Woolwich, which the House would agree was rather hard upon them. The hon. Baronet (Sir Harry Verney) had explained the reasons which induced the late Lord Herbert to embark in the expenditure upon the hospital at Woolwich. Many statements had been made concerning that hospital, which were devoid of foundation. It had been stated that the building was not adapted for the purposes of an hospital, and also that there were very serious faults in its construction. The truth was that that hospital had been constructed upon the plan of the best modern hospitals in London and in Continental towns, upon plans recommended by a Committee which was appointed to inquire into the subject of hospitals, and upon the plans more directly sanctioned by the Barrack and Hospital Committee in 1858. He believed that the medical profession generally agreed that the hospital was constructed upon the best principles. As to the alleged faults of construction, although it was true there had been a slight slip of earth where a portion of one of the pavilions was built and a small crack had appeared in one of the walls, yet the damage done was very slight, and the foundations had been examined by competent persons, who reported that there was no danger of further accident. The next item to which his attention had been called was that for the defences of the dockyard and anchorage at Bermuda, in connection with which he 251 would take the item for defences at Halifax. Colonel Jervois, who was sent to report upon the defences of Canada, was also instructed to inspect the defences of the harbours of Halifax, and Burmuda. Considerable works had been going on for some time at Halifax, but hitherto none of any importance had been undertaken at Bermuda. Colonel Jervois recommended additional works at Halifax and that they should be proceeded with more rapidly. That officer also made several recommendations with regard to Bermuda, and accordingly an item had been placed upon the Estimates for defensive works at that island. In reply to the question of the right hon. Baronet (Sir John Pakington), he could not say that it would be impossible to spend more money than the Government proposed to spend this year upon those works; but he was prepared to state that in framing the Estimate the Secretary for War had consulted Colonel Jervois as to what sums of money could be properly expended this year at Bermuda and Halifax, keeping in view considerations of economy and completeness. The amount which Colonel Jervois mentioned as required for Halifax had been placed upon the Estimates. Although it would not be impossible to proceed at a faster rate with those works, yet if they did so the cost would he very much increased, as labour could not be obtained in very great abundance on the spot. With respect to the amount asked for Bermuda, it was true there was a slight decrease of the amount recommended by Colonel Jervois. That decrease was very slight, and it was made because, upon further consideration, it appeared that a larger sum could not be usefully expended this year. It was impossible to calculate upon obtaining a sufficient supply of labour on the island. The black population was not very disposed to work, and the white population was well employed in other ways. If labour was imported from this country, unless very high rates of wages were given, the vicinity of the United States would offer a great inducement to cross to that country. If the works were to be carried on at a very rapid rate it could only be done by military or by convict labour. The garrison at Bermuda was at present small, and there was not accommodation for any very large increase of force. It was proposed to carry on the works with convict labour, but there were objections to the employment of convicts upon works of that kind, and the authorities at the Home Office had not yet 252 decided whether they would allow a body of convicts to be sent to Bermuda. In any case, much time would be required to construct huts and to make other arrangements for the reception of the convicts, so that it was not probable that a larger sum than that placed upon the Estimates could be usefully expended this year. With respect to Halifax, it must be recollected that the working season there was short, and, consequently, a smaller sum could be expended in the year than in places where work could be carried on throughout the year. The sum taken for Halifax this year was larger than had ever been taken before, and although it would not complete the works, yet it would be sufficient, added to former expenditure, to place the works in a condition to resist an enemy's fleet. The money taken this year would be expended in preparing the existing works to receive heavier guns, and in providing accommodation for the repair of iron steamers. With regard to the hut barracks at Gibraltar, the site originally fixed was near some officers' quarters; but the site had been changed since the Vote was taken, and it was necessary now to provide officers' quarters. As to the officers' quarters at Malta, they were said to be almost the worst in existence. There had been a great deal of sickness among the officers quartered in them, attributed to their character, and this work was considered one of a pressing nature. The works at Harwich were nearly complete, and the contract for the works at Newhaven had been let. With regard to the Vote for the fortification of commercial harbours, part of that would be devoted to works on the Severn; and it was also proposed to commence a work at Liverpool, on the Mersey, the appropriation for the erection of which would be augmented by a contribution from local funds to be supplied by the corporation of that place. As to the small amount said to be devoted to Ireland, it must be remembered that the sum taken this year in the Estimates for fortifications in the United Kingdom was not large. The expenses of fortifications at home was almost entirely defrayed from the loans. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Dunne) was aware that works were going on in Ireland at places recommended by the Commission, and the Committee would hardly think it right that they should begin erecting works in other parts which had not been recommended by any military authority. The decrease in the barrack expenditure in Ire- 253 land was owing to the fact that the concentration of troops in camps at the Curragh and Aldershot had led to a great many small barracks being given up.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, this Vote was owing to the fact that the infantry barracks at Windsor were extremely confined, and not sufficient for the accommodation of troops according to the modern notions of accommodation. They might be made much superior to what they were now, but the greatest fault was their confined space, which rendered it necessary to purchase additional land to expand them.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he must acknowledge that the noble Marquess had answered his questions in a manner which showed that he was thoroughly conversant with the complicated details of these Estimates. Still, the answer he had given to one or two of his questions rendered it necessary to ask him one or two more. He could assure the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) that Gentlemen on that side of the House had not urged the Government to expenditure on these matters; all they had done was, when the Government had stated on their responsibility that such expenditure was necessary for the interests of the country, to suggest that it should not be spread over a period of time thereby causing unnecessary delay. The noble Marquess said that Colonel Jervois had recommended the expenditure of £35,000 at Halifax, but that he had recommended at Bermuda a larger sum than was asked for. What was the difference between the sum actually taken and that recommended? He also wished to know whether the Government had come to any decision as to the employment of convict labour on these works at Bermuda.
SIR FREDERIC SMITHsaid, he wished to ask why the labour of soldiers—engineers—which was known to be so much cheaper in the erection of such works, was not employed. He believed they could easily be spared.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he thought he had a right, before answering the right hon. Baronet's question, to protest against its nature, though he did not object to answer it. The Committee could not expect that any one representing a Department in that House 254 should be called on to state the precise nature of the confidential recommendations of the officers of the Department in reference to any work of this kind.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, the question was founded on the information given by the noble Lord himself to the House.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he had stated that Colonel Jervois had been sent to Canada to inspect the works there, but did not imagine that the Committee would require the precise nature of his recommendations. As regarded the works at Quebec, Halifax, and Bermuda, Lord De Grey represented to Colonel Jervois that it was desirable no unnecessary delay should occur in their construction, and therefore asked him what amount of money could be expended during this year. £35,000 was mentioned for Halifax, £40,000 for Bermuda, and £50,000 for Quebec. But it was thought by the Government that £35,000 was as much as could be usefully spent in Bermuda this year. The Government were much obliged to the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) for defending them, but they had thought it right to take in every case the largest sum which they thought could be spent in the year.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONWhat about convict labour?
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that question was still under discussion. It had been thought right to refer it to a Committee, which, if it had not met already, would meet in a day or two.
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, the Government had initiated whatever irregularity there was by publishing Colonel Jervois's Report, and he was surprised they should now object to give information. But why had Colonel Jervois been sent out there at all? We had in Canada the flower of our army, comprising several distinguished engineer officers, and why were not they consulted? Colonel Jervois was one of our most distinguished officers, but then he had seen no service, and had been Secretary of that Defence Commission which had entailed upon us that extraordinary expenditure for fortifications which had made us the laughing stock of the whole world. Just as the currier thought there was nothing like leather, so with Colonel Jervois, there was nothing like fortifications.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he did not in the least object to any questions which hon. Gentlemen might like 255 to put as to the nature of the recommendations of Colonel Jervois. What he objected to was being compelled to answer questions with regard to confidential communications which might have passed between Colonel Jervois and the Secretary of State, on the subject of those works. The hon. and; gallant Gentleman was, no doubt, right in I saying there were officers in Canada who would be quite competent to make recommendations upon the subject of its defences, but Colonel Jervois had had very great experience, if not in active service, in the construction of works of military fortification. He quite admitted that Colonel Jervois had been Secretary to that Commission whose recommendations had, in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's opinion, been the laughing-stock of the world; but that was not the opinion of the House. The Government, however, were not proceeding upon the unsupported recommendations of Colonel Jervois. His plans had been submitted to General Williams, in Canada, to the Governor-General there, to the Commander-in-Chief in this country, and the principal officers who advised him, and had obtained their entire concurrence. He might say that they had also met with the entire approval of Sir John Burgoyne. The Government, therefore, were not acting on the unsupported recommendations of Colonel Jervois, but upon the best military opinions within their reach.
LORD NAASwas quite aware of the great advantage of employing convicts upon public works wherever it was possible, but he had on a former occasion brought the full question of the Bermuda establishment before the House, and the evils which had been shown to exist were so great that the Government resolved to discontinue the establishment as soon as possible, and they had since done so. If it were intended to send convicts there now, it would be necessary to go to the great expense of providing gaols and establishments for their use, for that House would never sanction a return to the horrors of the hulk system as practised at Bermuda some years ago. He hoped, therefore, whatever Department of the Government had this proposal under consideration would take full time before coming to a conclusion. He believed the expense they would have to go to if they were to send convicts there would be far greater than any possible advantage which could accrue to the public service.
§ Vote agreed to.
256§ (2.) £163,500, Military Education.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he was glad to see that the expenditure upon this department had somewhat diminished, and hoped it would still further decrease. The Council of Military Education cost £8,300 a year, He wanted to know whether the 200 cadets whose charge for messing was upon the Estimates formed the whole number at Woolwich. He had taken the trouble of adding up the number of persons who ministered to the education of these 200 gentlemen, and he found that they amounted to 147 in all. That was a very large and expensive establishment for 200 cadets. He did not think the double staff at all necessary. It appeared extraordinary to require a large military staff, who wore red coats, for purposes of discipline, who did nothing, and then a large educational staff, who taught the cadets something. If private persons were to establish a proprietary school they would not think of having a double establishment. It was rather an extravagant educational system when 200 cadets cost the sum of £36,000. There were also about 200 cadets at the Military College, costing for their education about the same sum. He thought the Government might find a more economical mode of doing the business.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that of the £36.000 for the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich the cadets themselves paid £30,960, so that the country only lost between £5,000 and £6,000. The Sand-hurst College was not so self-supporting, for it cost the country about £20,000. With regard to the establishment at Chelsea, the schoolmasters which it furnished were the most insubordinate set of men that could be found anywhere, and the consequence was that the officers did not take the same interest in regimental schools that they did formerly. Of the entire Vote of £163,500 the sum of £60,000 was repaid.
MR. KINGLAKEsaid, with regard to the double staff to which his hon. Friend (Mr. Ayrton)had called attention, it seemed rather strange that when it was thought necessary to effect some retrenchment, instead of reducing the military staff, which was the ornamental portion of the establishment at Woolwich, the reduction was made in the number of teachers. He thought this a most injurious course to take. Nothing could be more satisfactory than the condition of the pupils so far as concerned education, and the teachers had had nothing to do with the difficulties 257 which had occurred with regard to the military branch.
§ MR. MAGUIREsaid, that he had to repeat the complaint which he had made on several previous occasions with respect to the state of the Military Hibernian School at Dublin, which was destined for the education and nurture of the children of soldiers in Ireland. The number in the school was about 400. About two-thirds of these were Protestants, and one-third Catholics. There were seventy officials in the establishment, but not a single person of rank or influence was of the Roman Catholic faith. The whole atmosphere of the place was Protestant. There were eight teachers, not one of whom was a Roman Catholic. This system had been attended with serious practical injury, for on several occasions owing to the influences which surrounded them, Roman Catholic boys had embraced the Protestant faith, and he would mention one or two cases to show how this influence had been exerted. In the year 1861 two Members of the Government stated that when a vacancy secured on the staff a certain number of Catholic teachers or officers should be appointed. A vacancy did occur soon afterwards, and it was filled up in defiance of the expressed opinion of the House of Commons. He had omitted to mention that a Roman Catholic boy, who had changed his faith, was sent to another institution and brought back as a Protestant teacher. This was a strong inducement to others to change their faith. Other vacancies occurred in November and in January, neither of which had been filled up by Roman Catholics, Nothing could be more injurious in Ireland than to allow even the suspicion of proselytism to attach to any institution under the control of the Government, and supported by Parliament. Great discouragement was given to the introduction of Catholic children, one instance of which he would mention. Colour-serjeant O'Callaghan, who fought in the Crimea and died at Corfu, left two children, one of whom was now serving Her Majesty as a soldier, and the other a boy of tender years. The father was born, bred, lived, and died a Catholic; the widow, who was a Protestant at the time of her marriage afterwards became a Catholic. She was still a Catholic, and applied to have her child admitted into the institution, but the application was refused. Admission was afterwards obtained for the 258 boy as a Protestant, and the Roman Catholic clergyman was refused access to the register in which the child's name was inserted. What would be said in England if the case were reversed? If such a state of things existed lie would be one of the first, in defiance of priest, bishop, or Pope, to raise his voice in protest against it. In this college, while a Protestant chaplain was in receipt of £300 a year, the official Roman Catholic clergyman received only £80, and all applications for increase had been refused. An orderly serjeant in the institution changed his faith, and the Roman Catholic clergyman was kept out of his room one hour and a quarter while the man was dying, and was only admitted when the man had breathed his last. In this case a rebuke was administered by the Lord Lieutenant. These things showed the bias of the institution; and he had no confidence that the authorities of the school would give proper protection to Roman Catholic children. On the last occasion when he brought this subject before the noble Lord, in the true spirit of an Englishman, declared that he would not defend the Vote this year if there was not some change. There had been no change. He asked for that change; and he appealed to the noble Lord to urge upon the Lord Lieutenant, as president of the institution, to interfere in the matter and see that justice was done, for the Catholic soldier behaved in the charge, breach, and deadly conflict as gallantly as any one serving in the ranks of Her Majesty's army.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, in reply, to the observations of the hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton), that the duties of the Council of Military Education were not confined to the examination of officers for commissions; but included the whole administration of the military colleges, and of the regimental and garrison schools and libraries; and it would be seen by reference to the Return on the table that the gentlemen composing that commission were as fully occupied as any one employed in a public office. As to the Military Academy and Military College, it had been said that what was called the double staff was unnecessary. It was a misapprehension to say that what was designated in the Estimates the military branch was composed of officers employed solely in looking after the discipline of the military cadets. In the military branch of the Royal Academy at Woolwich were included the lieutenant- 259 governor, the commandant, the inspector of studies, the assistant-inspector, and the chaplain—offices which would be necessary in any large educational establishment, and would have to be filled, if not by military men, by civilians. In the educational branch were included the professors only. The only officers employed on purely military duties were the captains, lieutenants, paymasters, and adjutants of the cadet companies; and the salaries of these officers constituted only a very small portion of the expense of the college. No reduction had been made in the military staff; but some reduction had taken place in the teachers, and there had been a consequent reduction in the expense. In reply to the observations of the hon. Member (Mr. Kinglake), he must say that the college had never contained the number of cadets on which the estimate of the number of teachers was originally based. During the last year or two a larger number of cadets had been sent from the military academy than commissions could be given to; and instead of 300 cadets, the number intended originally to be educated at Woolwich, it was found unnecessary for the service to educate more than 200, and therefore the number of professors had been diminished. A like observation would apply to the Military College at Sandhurst. Passing to the question raised by the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire), he said it was true that last year the statement which the hon. Member brought before the House with regard to proselytising in the education given at the Royal Hibernian Schools attracted the attention of the Secretary for War, and the noble Earl had brought certain points connected with the management of that school under the notice of Sir George Brown and the Governors of the institution. The hon. Member last year gave him notice of the points to which he wished to call attention, and as far as any intention to proselytise on the part of any one connected with the education at the Hibernian School was concerned, he had shown that there was no real ground for the accusation; or, at all events, that if any indication of an attempt to proselytise the Roman Catholic children had ever been made, it had been checked and rebuked by the Governors of the institution. But he had been compelled to admit that in the educational staff of the college almost the whole—[Mr. MAGUIRE: Entire.]—perhaps the whole of the staff were of the Protestant religion. The Governors, however, assured them that 260 in the selection of the teachers they were not prompted by any religious feeling, and that their invariable practice had been to select those candidates who appeared to them to be most fitted for the posts. He had stated last year that the Government did not consider that that was entirely a satisfactory state of things. They thought that that principle ought not to be strictly adhered to; and Earl De Grey was of opinion that, considering the different religions of the children, the candidates for teacherships should, to a certain extent, irrespective of their other qualifications, be Roman Catholics. That opinion of Earl De Grey was communicated to Sir George Brown and the Governors of the institution, who immediately held a meeting and passed a resolution that in future appointments the religion of the candidates should be considered, and that it should be a rule that a certain proportion of Roman Catholics should be appointed. He made inquiries the other day as to what had been the result of that decision, and the information that he received was that the only vacancies which had since occurred to which Roman Catholics could be appointed were—for one pioneer corporal and three women servants. For these, Roman Catholics had been selected. Also two monitor-ships, since the 1st February last, had been held open, in hope that the Board of National Education would recommend candidates qualified for the appointment. He was sure that the Committee would agree that, after the declaration of the Governors, no further assurance could be needed that the promise would be carried out. He had no knowledge of the individual cases brought forward by the hon. Member, but he understood that no cases of proselytising had taken place since the last debate. Certainly, if any instances of proselytism had since occurred it was contrary to the spirit of the correspondence between Lord De Grey and Sir George Brown, and without further information and inquiry he could not believe that any such attempt had been made. The hon. Member had referred to the case of a refusal to admit a Roman Catholic child, who was afterwards admitted as a Protestant. Of course, having had no prievous notice of the case, he should offer no explanation with regard to it. The facts might be as the hon. Gentleman had stated them, but he did not think the inference that had been drawn from those facts was the correct one. If the child had been refused 261 admission, as stated, he should be inclined to believe it was not because the child was a Roman Catholic, but because there was no vacancy at the time, and that it was the occurrence of a vacancy, not the change of faith, which procured the subsequent admission.
§ MR. BRADYwas glad to have this assurance from the noble Marquess, but when he looked at the largeness of this Vote, extending to £10,000 or £20,000, and that of the officers of the institution not one in the higher positions was a Roman Catholic, he must enter his protest. The institution was entirely a Protestant one in its character. The noble Marquess said there were no attempts at proselytism in that establishment. This assertion might be correct in the sense in which the noble Lord meant to apply it—namely, that no direct influence was brought to bear OH the children there to induce them to change their religion; but when the Committee saw that children of tender years were associated in the Royal Military School with persons of a different religion who had an influence over them, it was a natural consequence that those children would receive impressions which would weigh upon their minds. It was a well known fact that no Protestant parent believing in the doctrines of his Church would place his children under a Catholic teacher any more than he would place them under one of the Jewish persuasion, and it would be well that in this institution the Catholic children had not any inducement to become Protestants. The school was established as a boon to the people of Ireland at the time of the Union. It was intended as a boon, and might yet be made a boon if it were conducted aright. But the reverse of this had been the case, and it had provoked irritation in the minds of the Catholics. It ought not to be the policy of the Government further to attempt to estrange the feelings of the people of Ireland from this country. The Government had the opportunity to make amends for the past, and by seeing that this would be conducted in a fair spirit to the people of Ireland, it would tend to diminish that feeling of hostility which the Irishmen who had left for America had entertained, and which arose from the notion that justice had not been done to them at home.
§ MR. MAGUIREexpressed his acknowledgments to the noble Marquess for the assurance which he had given. He (Mr. Maguire) should be sorry to make a state- 262 ment which he did not believe, and as an act of justice to himself and the noble Marquess, who had nothing to conceal, he would ask him to grant as unopposed the Returns he had moved for. They might render unnecessary any further appeals to the House on the subject.
§ MR. WATKINcalled attention to the allowance for the messes of the cadets, and said as there were only 200 cadets, each of them must cost the country £180. This must be an expensive mode of education.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (3.) £88,345, Surveys, &c.
§ (4.) £107,700, Miscellaneous Services.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he wished to call attention to an item of £5,000 for expenses attending the carrying out of the Act 27 & 28 Vict. c. 85, for the prevention of contagious diseases at certain naval and military stations. It was, he thought, remarkable, after all that was said and done in connection with the moral and intellectual improvement of soldiers, that it should be deemed necessary to propose a Vote of £5,000 for the purpose of ministering to their vices and tempting them into immorality. The proposed expenditure was of an entirely novel character, and he should be glad to know how the money was to be appropriated and what towns were to have the disgrace of participating in its distribution. A more discreditable proposal was never brought under the notice of the House.
§ MR. LOCKEsaid, that as a Member of the Committee who sat upon the Bill which had now become law, and on which this Vote was based, he must protest against the extraordinary description which the lion. Member for the Tower Hamlets had given of the measure. It was wholly incorrect to talk of that £5,000 as being intended for the purpose of catering to the vices of the soldiers. It was simply intended for their protection; and if a similar measure could be carried out throughout the whole country it would be a very great advantage. The object of the Act was that where a woman was proved to be a common prostitute—a term well known to the law of England—she should be taken care of, and not allowed to be the source of mischief to other people. It was an 263 Act for the protection of the health of soldiers. A kinder or more benevolent Act he could not conceive. The hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) had objected to it in the Committee because it was not sufficiently extensive, and seemed to think that they ought not to attempt to mitigate the evil because they could not entirely extirpate it. His hon. Friend (Mr. Ayrton) absented himself from the Committee, except on one day, when he expressed his entire dissent from the Bill. The Committee thought they did good service. They were unanimous. They were satisfied with themselves, and they were equally satisfied with his hon. Friend because he stayed away.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that the proportion of teachers to students at the Ecole Polytechnique at Paris was much greater than at the Military College. The hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) was correct in saying that there were only 200 cadets at Woolwich, but the charge for education was fair and reasonable. With regard to the item of £5,000, it was proposed to extend it in the hire of certain Lock wards in different places; and, although it was not quite decided, yet it was contemplated to commence a hospital in one or two places where no such wards could be procured. The proportion of the grant to Aldershot would be expended either there or in London, to which those persons would be removed. It was the general opinion of persons competent to judge that the Bill would be of great use.
§ MR. BRADYsaid, that there was no city of Europe in which public hospitals were not open to this class of patients. They ought to be more general in this country.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he had attended the meeting of the Committee one day, when he proposed that the law of the land should be put in force for the protection of the soldier.
§ Vote agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he did not propose to move the next Vote for the administration of the army until the Report of the Committee was received.
§ (5.) £26,100, Rewards for Military Service.
§ (6.) £74,200, Pay of General Officers.
§
(7.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £455,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of
264
the Pay of Reduced and Retired Officers, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1866, inclusive:"—
§ Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Torrens.)
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ (8.) £162,100, Widows' Pensions and Compassionate Allowances.
§ (9.) £28,200, Pensions and Allowances to Wounded Officers.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £33,200, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, and the In-Pension thereof, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1866, inclusive.
§ COLONEL DICKSON moved that the Chairman report Progress.
§ MR. HENNESSYsaid, he wished to have some information on this Vote. It appeared that only £15 a year was allowed to maintain soldiers' widows, and he wished to know how many widows had applied. Surely that was not the whole sum allotted to this purpose?
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, that he hoped the hon. Member would not persevere in asking information then, as Progress had been made, and he was only marring the attempt to postpone the consideration of the Vote.
THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, that usually this Vote passed without discussion. He could see no objection to proceeding with it.
§ MR. WATKINsaid, he hoped the Committee would act like an assembly of business men. This was a Vote which everybody approved, and he appealed to the gallant Member not to obstruct business by this mode of objection.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, these discussions always arose upon the Estimates, as the hon. Member would have known if he had been as long in the House as he (Colonel Dunne) had. It was the hon. Member's inexperience which led him to make that suggestion.
COLONEL DICKSONI thought I had moved that Progress be reported. Really it seems as if the Government are trying to get these Estimates in an unfair manner.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONregarded the proposal as unreasonable, but as they had got already many Votes the Government would give way.
§ Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Colonel Dickson,)—put, and agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again on Monday next.