NAVY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 24 April 1865)

§ SIR JOHN HAY
said, he wished to ask for explanations of the estimated cost of altering the armour-plating of the Royal Alfred.

§ MR. CHILDERS
said, he would give the explanation when the Report was brought up.

§ SIE JOHN HAY
said, he was happy to see a reduction in the dead weight amounting to nearly £30,000 in the pay to reserve officers; but there was so much the greater reason that some consideration should be shown to those officers whose case had been so often brought before the House, and especially the reserve captains on the F G list. The Committee appointed to consider the question of naval retirement could not enter into the grievances of these officers, because they involved a money question which had not been submitted to the Committee. These captains were removed from the active to the reserved list when the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Francis Baring) was First Lord of the Admiralty. Certain officers had served with considerable distinction, and as they were getting old they were offered the retirement which then existed for officers of that rank. They declined that offer, and refused to accept the retirement, but the First Lord was determined to remove them from the list, and he caused a reserved list to be framed. Having declined to accept the retirement, they were persuaded to go upon the list thus created, believing that by this removal they Continued to enjoy all the advantages accruing to officers on the active list, except that they would not receive the same amount of employment. They received Commissions like officers on the active list, and not similar to the Commission of retired officers, and they believed, and were assured, that they would lose nothing by accepting promotion on the reserved list. This impression of theirs received some corroboration from what occurred at the time of the Russian war, when many of them applied for employment, for Sir James Graham did not decline their services upon the ground that they were on a list which incapacitated them from serving, hut because their services would not be required, as there was no probability of a great naval war with Russia. No doubt, there was considerable advantage at the time in removing these officers from the active list, as room was thus made for promotion, but there was also considerable hardship in the fact that in accepting the reserve list they were not aware that they were accepting a retirement. He would suggest that a small boon should be granted to them, and that 997 they should be allowed, rising pari passu with captains on the active list, the same additional pay of 2s. a day as officers on the active list became entitled to; and that they should also be entitled at the proper time to their reserved flag. Considering that the country received in the present year £30,000 from the diminution of the list, and that an expenditure of about £5,000 a year for a very short time was all which the adoption of his suggestion would entail, he thought that the Government would do well to consider the proposal. He was aware that the matter had often been discussed in Parliament; and that the Law Officers of the Crown had decided that these gallant officers had not the right which they had imagined they possessed; but, considering their age and services, it seemed very hard to withhold from them that to which they scemed to have a reasonable claim, and he trusted that their case would receive further and favourable consideration.

§ LORD CLARENCE PAGET
said, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had often brought the case of these gallant officers before the House, and had urged that they ought to be allowed to rise pari passu with officers on the active list. The right hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir Francis Baring) was the First Lord of the Admiralty when the Order in Council, having reference to the officers in question, was issued, and that right hon. Gentleman had often stated that he never had the intention of giving them the same advantages as officers on the active list. These officers were commanders, and they were promoted from commanders to captains on the reserved list, receiving the lowest rate of captains' half pay. He could not concur in the statement that these officers had accepted their promotion with the understanding that they were to rise pari passu with the active list, and receive the higher rates of pay attached to that list. The question was, whether it would bo a sound and just measure to allow officers promoted to the reserved list, and whose services the public thereby lost (as it was a clear understanding with tlicm that, unless on some great emergency, they never would be called on to serve), to rise pari passu with officers in the active list, who were liable to be called on to serve. He did not conceive that there could be a difference of opinion on the subject. It would be perfectly unjust and disadvantageous to the navy if officers were to 998 be told that they might, if they chose, go on the reserved list, and that then they should have exactly the same pay as officers likely to be called on to servo. The Law Officers of the Crown had given their opinion that there really was no case in favour of the claim made on the part of these officers. Their case was brought under the consideration of a Committee of that House two years ago, and the feeling of the Committee was in favour of granting them any boon that could possibly be conceded, and the Government, in consequence, decided that their services should count towards increased pay under the terms of the Order in Council which granted increased pay for length of services; so that those officers not only received their 10s. 6d. a day, but also increased pay according to length of service. The suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member for "Wakefield (Sir John Hay) would, if acted on, cause many of the officers to be losers, because there were many now receiving 4s. a day in addition to the pay they would have been entitled to had they remained on the active list of captains. There were seventeen of these officers who received considerably higher pay than captains on the active list. There was one officer receiving 16s. 6d. a day, who if he bad gone on pari passu with the active list would have now been receiving 14s. 6d.; and there were several receiving 14s. 6d., 15s. 6d., and 15s. 9d., who if they had remained on the active list would only have been receiving 12s. 6d. He could not, therefore, hold out any hopes that the Government would be prepared to ask the House to extend any further boon to those officers.

§ ADMIRAL WALCOTT
had learnt with considerable regret, from the speech of the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty, the continued indisposition of the Board of Admiralty to meet the claims advanced in their memorial by the reserved captains of the Navy. At the same time, he frankly admitted that when the right hon. Baronet the Member for Portsmouth, in the year 1851, at that time presiding at the Board, drew up the Minute offering retirement to these officers agreeably to that Minute, he had done so in the full belief that it did not lay open to any misunderstanding. He, however, contended an amount of ambiguity was apparent which justified these officers in arriving at a different impression, and certainly a 999 subsequent Board of Admiralty had thought so, or they would not have consented to the submitting this memorial of these captains for the legal opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown; in equal fairness he admitted that opinion had been against their claims. Still, when submitted to the House of Commons, the Committee appointed by the House to investigate them had recommended a favourable consideration might be extended in their favour, and agreeably as had been said by the noble Lord, inasmuch as some increase in their half-pay had been granted in their behalf. And he further added that those of them who had served long and faithfully had had proper consideration allowed to them; but he (Admiral Walcott) maintained that meritorious officers had shown themselves anxious for active service, but had unfortunately failed to obtain it from the want of Parliamentary or political influence, were equally deserving of the favourable consideration of the Government and the nation. He had had personal communication with several of these captains, and they had assured him on their honour that when they accepted the offer of retirement contained in the Minute they had done so in the full and firm belief that they, though set aside from active service, where by it insured to rise in rank and increase of pay similarly with captains on the active list, according to seniority. He had advocated the claims of these officers on former occasions, because he had believed it to be just, and he still retained this strong opinion. If the Government looked to the officers, whether of the army or the navy, to perform meritorious services to their country, it was incumbent on it to deal out a meed of justice to them all, and in doing so he believed it would be applauded by the nation. He, therefore, regretted the decision at which the Government had arrived in this matter, and feared it would cause great dissatisfaction in the service.