HC Deb 27 March 1863 vol 170 cc105-10

Resolutions (March 26) reported.

First Thirteen Resolutions agreed to.

Fourteenth Resolution read, That a sum, not exceeding £6,741, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for conducting the business of the Civil Service Commission.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

asked for an explanation respecting the first appearance in these Estimates of the First Commissioner of the Civil Service Commission. The duty had been hitherto performed by unpaid Commissioners. It appeared now, that though the duty had been well dune by the unpaid Commissioners, the country was now called upon to vote £1,500 for this First Commissioner of the Civil Service Commission. He, like many other hon. Member, had been taken entirely by surprise by the rapid progress made last night by the Government in taking these Votes; and he thought they outfit to feel indebted to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) for having exposed this juggling system of passing the Votes.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that he could not understand the debt of gratitude which oppressed his noble Friend in connection with what he had described in the not very complimentary term "juggling." lie could not understand the disappointment of hon. Gentlemen who had failed to be in their places when the Votes were brought forward after due notice. The words used by the noble Lord were hard ones, and hard words ought not to be lightly used; when they were applied, they ought to be supported by proof that they were deserved. If they were used, and that such proof could not he brought forward, they ought to be apologized for. With respect to the Vote on which his noble Friend asked for some explanation, it was explained last year. The fact was, that when the Civil Service Commission was appointed in 1855, the country had been fortunate enough to obtain the services as Commissioners of two most able men—Sir John Lefevre and Sir Edward Ryan—both of whom received salaries from other appointments. This was a state of things that could not be expected to last. Sir John Lefevre for eight years discharged most arduous duties on the Commission, but in 1861 he informed the Government that his physical strength was not equal to the discharge of the duties of the Civil Service Commission and of the Ecclesiastical Commission, in conjunction with those of Clerk to the House of Lords. Therefore, it became absolutely necessary to appoint some person in his place on the Civil Service Commission, but it could not be expected that they should meet with another person who would discharge the duties of a Commissioner gratuitously. Sir Edward Ryan received a salary as a retired Indian Judge, and likewise as Assistant Controller of the Exchequer during the eight years he had been on the Civil Service Commission in conjunction with Sir John Lefevre. The Deputy Controllership of the Exchequer had been virtually abolished, and by the re-arrangements made by the Government he thought they saved more money than they spent in giving Sir Edward Ryan a salary as Civil Service Commissioner.

MR. HENNESSY

said, that the charge against the Government was not that they had proceeded with the Estimates, but that after the Secretary of the Treasury had placed on the paper this notice—"Civil Service Estimates: Votes on account," they had proceeded with the Votes themselves. A Cabinet Minister, while defending the Government, was forced to admit that this course was unprecedented and inconvenient, and surely, therefore, a Member of the Opposition might describe it as "juggling." He was anxious to know how it was that since the public funds had been expended upon this Civil Service Commission the number of open competitions had declined.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

thought that the Secretary of the Treasury had been wanting in consideration, he would say courtesy, to Irish Members in proceeding with the Irish Votes without sufficient notice.

MR. PEEL

said, that the fact that Irish Votes were passed last night in the absence of Irish Members might easily be accounted for without supposing that Irish Members were inattentive to their duties, and without there being any justification for the charge that he had been wanting in consideration or courtesy. The Votes last night passed with unusual, rapidity; partly, perhaps, owing to the circumstance that they had been prepared with great care, and that hon. Members who had studied them found little in the Estimates to object to. Class 5 also occupied less time than could have been anticipated, owing to the postponement of the Colonial and Consular and Diplomatic Votes; and, consequently. Class 6 might have come on before hon. Members had expected. There was no ground for saying that he had stolen a march on the House or taken an unusual course. On Monday evening he gave notice that he should last evening move the Revenue and Civil Service Estimates, Classes 2, 5, and 6, and that notice was printed on the paper which was distributed on Tuesday morning. At the same time, he gave a separate notice that he should on Wednesday move Votes on account. On Wednesday he endeavoured to do so; but an hon. Member behind him objecting he was compelled to postpone the Motion till last evening. Last evening he was obliged to move those Votes on account in order that they might be reported to-night. It was in that sense that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War spoke when he said that the course taken was unusual. It was unusual, because the necessity for Votes on account of these Estimates arose for the first time this Session in consequence of the change in the mode of Voting the Civil Service Estimates which was made last year.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that he objected to the taking of the Votes on account on Wednesday, because the notice had only appeared in the paper that morning. The course adopted last night, if not a juggling, was certainly a bungling, irregular, and inconvenient one. It had, he believed, never before occurred, that after the House had agreed to Votes on account it had been called upon to consider the Estimates in extenso on the same evening. He begged to move the reduction of this Vote by £1,500, the salary proposed for the First Commissioner.

Amendment proposed, to leave out "£6,74l," and insert "£5,241,"—instead thereof.

Question proposed. "That £6,741' stand part of the Resolution."

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

said, he thought the Government, having the Votes on account, might have postponed the definitive Votes until after Easter. By the course adopted hon. Members had been put in the position not to be able to make observations which, under other circumstances, they would have wished to offer. The same remark applied to the Irish Votes. In his opinion it would have been much more desirable that the Government, having obtained the Votes on account, should not have ventured on a course which the Government themselves said was unusual and inconvenient, and which a much respected Member characterized as objectionable and unconstitutional.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that a meaning was attached to the word "unusual" which it did not bear. The practice to vote on account was entirely novel, because it was incident to a system which had been adopted for the purpose of giving effect to an important administrative improvement. It was necessary to prepare a list of Votes on which probable advances would be required before there was an opportunity of bringing them definitively before the House. That was unusual, but it was a practice to which recurrence would have to be had in future years. As to the objection to the combination of Votes on account with definitive Votes, he did not deny that there was a certain degree of inconvenience attached to it, but it was entirely bound up with the new system, and he thought it very immaterial. His right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Peel) was liable to no censure whatever; and if there was an ambiguity in the notice, it was an ambiguity arising from the impossibility to foresee the speed with which the Votes would be passed. If he had known it would have been so, he would have withdrawn these Votes from the list of Votes to be taken on account. With regard to the Amendment, he was sure the House of Commons would not agree to the Amendment, or refuse to reward Sir Edward Ryan for the discharge of duties which he had hitherto performed without receiving any reward.

MR. LYGON

said, the Notices were certainly such as the House could not understand, and therefore it was unjust to charge Members with not attending to their duties when they could not anticipate that such business would be brought on. The right hon. Gentleman had not answered the question as to the number of competitive examinations.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the hon. Gentleman had better move for a Return.

LORD HENRY LENNOX

disclaimed any intention, in the use of the word "juggling," to say anything adverse to the claims of the eminent gentleman whose name had been mentioned. Having been a Lord of the Treasury, at a time of unexampled difficulty, when the Government were in a considerable minority, he had felt that it would he very convenient at times to use a little "hocus-pocus;" so that he had used the words in no offensive sense.

MR. HENNESSY

said, it was distinctly understood by many hon. Members that the balances would not come under discussion last night. The mode of proceeding which had been adopted was not only inconvenient to Members, but was most embarrassing in the conduct of public business.

MR. CLAY

hoped, that after the explanation which had been given, the Motion would be withdrawn,

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that as he understood another salary was saved in another quarter, he had no objection to withdraw the Amendment.

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

asked the Speaker whether it was within the rules of the House, that when a Vote had been moved on account, and no Report had been made on that Vote, that there should afterwards, on the same night, be taken a Vote on the balance. If the Vote on account were negatived on the Report, it was difficult to see how the Votes that were subsequently passed could be said to be Votes of balances.

MR SPEAKER

The question ought not to be put to me; it should be put to the Chairman of Ways and Means. The Chairman is responsible for the conduct of the business in Committee, and no appeal lies from him to me; and I feel it would be extremely wrong to express an opinion on a point that arose in Committee.

MR. TORRENS

asked what the aggregate salary of Sir Edward Ryan would now be.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he would answer the question at a future time.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Resolution agreed to.

Fifteenth and Sixteenth Resolutions agreed to.

Seventeenth Resolution read 2°.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members not being present,

House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock, till Monday 13th April,