§ MR. HENRY SEYMOURrose, according to notice, to call the attention of the House to recent occurrences in Japan, and said, that great care was requisite in the selection of a Minister to Japan since the opening of the ports in 1858; but the fact was that two gentlemen sent out as Consuls there had misconducted themselves. One of them, Mr. Hodgson, had been recalled, and Mr. Morrison, as far as the merchants in Japan could ascertain, had been sent home to answer certain accusations made against him for very indiscreet conduct as British agent in that country. From the published papers it now appeared that Colonel Neale also was at variance with the whole of the British community out there. He did not wish to impute any blame to Colonel Neale, but he wished to know whether any further despatches had been received than had yet appeared, for in one of this officer's letters he seemed to allude to some further despatches as having been sent home by him, and the British residents were very anxious that the Under Secretary should produce any despatches in which Colonel Neale had attacked them, or, if no such despatches had been received, should state so publicly. He wished also to ask what steps the Government intended to take in consequence of the outrages which had been perpetrated on British subjects in Japan. These 1420 outrages began on the subject of other countries. In 1859 an attack was made on a Russian naval officer and a sailor; in 1860, on two Dutch captains; in the year following, on the American Secretary of Legation at Yeddo; then there were two attacks on the British Legation; and in 1862 occurred the cruel murder of Mr. Richardson. The British merchants and their friends, feeling the insecurity of life in Japan, were naturally most anxious to know whether the Government would take any steps to prevent these lamentable occurrences. He believed he represented the general feeling of the British merchants in Japan when he said that sufficient care had not been taken by the Foreign Office in the selection of its agents; and he thought it was quite possible, in opening up relations with Japan, for the Government to choose gentlemen who would be able to execute our consular duties and at the same time conduct themselves as Christian men. Colonel Neale, our Chargé d' Affaires in Japan, was a gallant gentleman; but what were the antecedents which, in the eyes of the Foreign Office, qualified him for his present post? He had not had Oriental experience. He found that the gallant Colonel joined the liberating army of Portugal in 1832, and until 1860 he had not been further east than European Turkey. Suddenly he received a despatch, from the Foreign Office appointing him to an official post in China, whence he had since been transferred to Japan. At that time our relations with Japan were extremely delicate, and surely some gentleman versed in Eastern diplomacy could have been found to fill the post. This country had been involved in wars which cost us millions by the ignorance or unfitness for their duties of consular agents sent to foreign countries. There had not been a more fruitful source of expense to this country than the bad choice of our agents abroad; and that remark applied in many cases, from Mexico to Pekin. He hoped the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs would afford the House some information on the points to which he had directed his hon. Friend's attention.
§ MR. LAYARD, in reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen (Colonel Sykes) said, that all the papers which the Foreign Office possessed with regard to our relations with China had been laid upon the table of the House. He had no information on the subject of the 20,000 1421 dollars referred to by his hon. and gallant Friend as having been offered for the head of General Burgevine. His hon. and gallant Friend relied much on his private correspondence; but, judging from the manner in which it had misled him (Colonel Sykes) last year, he feared it was not so trustworthy as it might be. With regard to Captain Dew's proceedings at Ningpo, if his hon. and gallant Friend would take the trouble to look into the papers laid on the table, he would see that all that gallant officer's operations were described in them.
As to the Question put by the hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Stirling) he was sure his hon. Friend would quite understand that it would be impossible for Her Majesty's Government to lay upon the table of the House despatches containing a recital of conversations held by our agents abroad with persons in the exalted position of the Pope or any other European Sovereign. It had never been the custom to do so; and in the present instance it would be improper and inconvenient to produce the despatch or any part of the despatch referred to by his hon. Friend. But he might repeat that what took place on this occasion—when an inquiry was made by the Pope whether in the event of his being compelled to leave Rome an asylum would be afforded to him in England—was fully and accurately reported in the despatch of Earl Russell, dated the 29th January, which had been laid upon the table. It was true, as his hon. Friend said, that certain French papers—he knew not on the responsibility of what persons—contradicted our account of those transactions; but he was convinced that what the noble Lord had stated on the authority of Mr. Odo Russell was strictly true; because of this we might be sure, that the utmost reliance might be placed on the word of an English gentleman, and more especially on the word of a public servant so honourable and conscientious as Mr. Odo Russell. Under these circumstances he did not think it necessary to vindicate Mr. Odo Russell or to contradict any charges which the French papers might make against us. But his hon. Friend said, that the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office had taken many weeks to answer the question which the Pope had addressed to Mr. Russell. The fact was, the latter gentleman had left Rome at the beginning of the unhealthy season, and it was quite untrue, as stated 1422 in the French papers, that he had been called to England in consequence of anything that had taken place between him and the Pope. When Mr. Russell's leave of absence had expired, and he was returning to Rome, Lord Russell took the opportunity of furnishing him with the despatch to which his hon. Friend referred.
With regard to the Question of his hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Henry Seymour), his hon. Friend had been very much misinformed with respect to Mr. Consul Morrison. That gentleman was not recalled to this country to have his conduct investigated: he came home after a considerable residence in Japan, during which his health had become impaired. It was quite true that charges were made against him by a Singapore paper which much affected his character as a consul and a gentleman; and when these charges were brought under the notice of the Foreign Office, an immediate order was given for a full inquiry on the spot. The result of the investigation was an entire acquittal of Mr. Morrison. It was true that he had struck a Japanese, and the Government took occasion to express their disapprobation of his conduct in so doing. He trusted that when he returned he would be more careful in regard to his treatment of the natives; but he must take occasion to say, that Consul Morrison was one of our ablest agents, that he was intimately acquainted with his Consular duties, and had obtained in their discharge the approval both of the British Mission and of the British residents in Japan. As to the barbarous murder of Mr. Robinson, the House might rest perfectly certain that Her Majesty's Government would take the proper steps to obtain the fullest satisfaction for the outrage; but as the instructions which they had sent out had not yet been carried into execution, they could not with propriety lay them on the table. His hon. Friend (Mr. Henry Seymour) had made some observations with regard to the appointment of our agents in the East, and had criticised the conduct of Lord Russell in reference to his selection of those gentlemen. His hon. Friend had referred to the Foreign Office List for the antecedents of Colonel Neale, and, having first said that he had had no Eastern experience, he then told the House that he had been for some years in the consular service in Turkey. It would have been difficult to have obtained a diplomatic officer who had experience in Japan itself, because our di- 1423 plomatic relations with that country had only existed for a very short time. But Colonel Neale had shown remarkable qualities as a Consul in the East—indeed, he had been one of our best Consuls—and when the position of Secretary of Legation at Pekin became vacant, the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Office, thought he was the man best fitted for the post. His conduct in China justified the selection of the noble Lord; and when it became necessary to send a chargé d' affaires to Japan, Colonel Neale was selected; and he (Mr. Layard) ventured to say, that a better selection could not have been made. His hon. Friend made his accusation in such general terms that he had not even excepted Sir Rutherford Alcock, than whom no officer in the service was more deserving of consideration. The hon. Gentleman had asked whether Colonel Neale had sent to England any observations in reference to the accusations made against him by the merchants in Japan. The answer was, that no such statement had been sent to England by Colonel Neale. He believed that after the despatch printed in the blue-book had been written, a good understanding was restored between Colonel Neale and the merchants; and therefore the Colonel very wisely thought it better not to carry on the controversy. They had all become good friends again, and no such observations as those alluded to had been sent to England.
§ SIR GEORGE BOWYERthought it was necessary to make a correction of the statement of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Layard). He understood the hon. Gentleman to say that Mr. Odo Russell asserted that the Pope had asked whether in certain events an asylum would be afforded to him at Malta. He did not think it had ever been alleged before, either in the despatches or otherwise, that the Holy Father had mentioned Malta. All that the Pope was alleged to have done was to inquire whether, if at any time circumstances should lead him to take refuge in England, he would be likely to be well and hospitably received. Of course to that Mr. Russell (it was stated in the printed despatch) could only give a general answer. Then the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs suggested Malta in a despatch which was read to Cardinal Antonelli. The real explanation was, that it was a mere random expression of the Holy Father just as Mr. Russell was leaving the 1424 room, which Mr. Russell had taken too much au pied de la lettre. The thing occurred at a time when Garibaldi was carrying on his operations in the South of Italy. The Holy Father said, "We are in bad circumstances"—"Siamo in cattive acque" was the expression he believed; and he went on to say something to this effect—" It is impossible to say what may happen; we may have to ask the assistance of your Government." It was a mere random expression, taken too seriously by Mr. Russell, who probably was only too glad to have something to report to his Government. It was something very like the extraordinary report which got about last year, that there was to be a rifle match between the Lord Chancellor and the Speaker. A noble Lord went up to the Speaker when he was busy, and began talking to him about a rifle match, to which the Speaker answered in a jocular way, "If I am to go to a rifle match, it must be with the Lord Chancellor of course." This the noble Lord took seriously, carried a message to the Lord Chancellor, and that noble and learned Lord actually announced from the Woolsack that he was going to shoot a match with the Speaker of the House of Commons. Of course it was explained that the Speaker had not meant anything serious from his casual expression. He believed the conversation between Mr. Russell and the Holy Father was precisely analogous, and that Mr. Russell had attached too much importance to it. Cardinal Antonelli, when Lord Russell made a serious offer of asylum to the Pope at a time when nothing seemed likely to happen to put him in want of it, explained that the whole thing was a misunderstanding; though, of course, with that courtesy which distinguished great ecclesiastics and Sovereign Princes, the Pope thanked the English Government for the offer. Too much had been made of the affair. He must say he thought the despatch which Lord Russell wrote, recommending the Pope to accept the asylum, and stating that circumstances might arise which would make him glad of it, was uncalled for and improper. It was a part of that system of meddling which distinguished the noble Lord, and which had produced so many inconveniences in all parts of the world. He was afraid that what had occurred had placed Mr. Russell in a more unfavourable position than he had occupied before with the 1425 Papal Government—although he had never held a diplomatic position. He hoped the hon. Gentleman opposite would be able to state that this was not the case.
§ MR. LAYARDThe hon. Baronet is perfectly correct. It was a slip of the tongue when I said Malta; I meant to say England, of course. I believe Mr. Odo Russell's position at Rome is as satisfactory as ever, and his conduct is as much liked as ever.
§ MR. ARTHUR RUSSELL (Tavistock)said, that of course it was very difficult to contradict any account of what had taken place in conversation between the Pope and his brother, at which only the two were present, but, of course, he believed the statement of his brother in preference to any other. He remembered distinctly having a conversation with his brother on the subject, and the account which he gave of it. It should be remembered that the circumstances were then very different from what they were now. Garibaldi was marching on Rome from the South, the Vatican was alarmed, the French General had withdrawn his troops from the Southern frontier, and was concentrating them at Civita Vecchia. The Pope feared some act of treachery such as had occurred before; for it must be borne in mind that he was not at all grateful to his Imperial protector, not being able to forget that he had lost two-thirds of his States under that protection. Of course, if this conversation were published officially, it would put his brother in a very awkward position at Rome, for it was contrary to all diplomatic usage to publish private conversations with a Sovereign, and to make use in this way of the confidence with which the Pope had honoured him in a critical moment. An hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stirling) had called attention to the great abuse lavished on Mr. Russell by the French press. The position of an English agent at Rome was one of exceeding difficulty. In every other capital of Europe English agents were able to co-operate thoroughly with the representatives of Franco; but at Rome there could be no such co-operation, for there unfortunately he represented a policy which was entirely opposed to that of the French Ambassador. In popular opinion at Rome the English agent represented national independence and the liberation of Rome from foreign occupation, and the French agent represented the perpetuation of the temporal power of 1426 the Pope and the perpetual occupation by the French troops. That was an inconvenience inseparable from the different policies of the two Governments, and nothing could alter it. The best and the most prudent policy for the English Government was to have as little to do with the Pope as possible, and to leave the Pope and the Catholic Powers to get out of the difficulty as well as they could. In a moment of great difficulty Lord Russell had offered the Pope an asylum at Malta under the protection of British guns. In case any pressure should be put upon him by his Imperial protector, that offer must be of great importance to the Pope; but instead of satisfying the Catholics of Europe and England, it seemed only to have irritated them, and they had not shown the slightest gratitude. He was glad to assure the hon. Baronet (Sir George Bowyer) that his brother's position was not in the least altered by what had occurred. The day before yesterday he had received a letter from his brother, assuring him that Cardinal Antonelli still fronted him with the same courtesy and confidence. The Pope had never denied the conversation, he merely said that his brother had attached greater importance to it than it deserved. But considering the respect he owed to his Holiness, it was only his brother's duty to conclude that the Pope was not speaking at random.
§ Motion agreed to.