VOLUNTEERS BILL.—COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 04 June 1863 vol 171 cc332-67

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

MR. BAGWELL

rose to move the Amendment of which he had given notice— That, in the opinion of this House, it is impolitic any longer to exclude Ireland from the operation of the Volunteer system, and unjust, should such exclusion continue, to tax Ireland for the support of English Volunteers. It was not his intention to offer any opposition to the Bill; the measure was unobjectionable, but a sting lurked in the 52nd clause, under which this Act was not to extend to Ireland. He would endeavour to show that this exclusion of Ireland was unjust as well on social as on political grounds. Every person who had made Ireland his study must feel that the great evil of Ireland was the want of opportunities for social intercourse between the different classes of the people, and that wherever these had been afforded—as in the case of the Poor Law Boards—the happiest results had followed. Englishmen could hardly feel the difficulty. Now, the class of people from whom Volunteers would be taken would, as in the case of England, be the inhabitants of towns and large villages, and no one could question the beneficial influence in England of the intercourse produced by that association. It was idle to say that the people of Ireland were disloyal, for this was the very class of the Irish people who had come forward to express their sympathies with Her Majesty on her recent bereavement, and again sent addresses to their future Sovereign conveying their congratulations on his marriage. Surely, then, this was a class eminently loyal and trustworthy. It was ascertained that the population of Ireland was about 5,798,000, or about the same as Scotland, Wales, and Yorkshire. Now, what would be said if there was a clause to exclude Scotland, Yorkshire, and Wales from the operation of the Bill? No Minister who asked such a thing could keep his place. Then, on political grounds also Ireland had a right to the advantages of the system. Almost the last letter written by Edmund Burke had reference to the condition of Ireland, and contained the following passage— There is no hope for the body of the people of Ireland as long as those who are in power with you shall make it the great object of their policy to propagate an opinion on this side of the water that the mass of their countrymen are not to be trusted by their Government. Further on in the same letter he said— My poor opinion is that the closest connection between Great Britain and Ireland is essential to the well-being, I had almost said to the very being, of the two kingdoms. On the 11th of April 1799, after the death of Burke, the House of Lords, in their Address to the King, stated— We entertain a firm persuasion that a complete and entire union between Great Britain and Ireland, founded on equal and liberal principles, on the similarity of laws, constitution, and government, and on a sense of mutual interests and affections, by promoting the security, wealth, and commerce of the respective kingdoms, and by allaying the distractions which have unhappily prevailed in Ireland, must afford fresh means of opposing at all times an effectual resistance to the destructive projects of our foreign and domestic enemies, and must tend to confirm and augment the stability, power, and resources of the nation. How had these brave, honest words been borne out? As long as a different stamp was put upon Ireland, as long as the differences proposed in the present Bill were maintained, and Ireland was not treated as an integral part of the United Kingdom, so long Ireland would be discontented, and her people unhappy, and, instead of being the right arm of this country in the hour of danger, she would be a source of weakness and uneasiness. Sir Robert Peel, in his speech announcing the resignation of Ministers on the 29th of June 1846, used these remarkable words— There should be a real and substantial equality of political and civil rights, so that no person viewing Ireland with an unbiassed eye, and comparing the civil franchises of Ireland with those of England or of Scotland, shall be able to say with truth that a different rule has been adopted towards Ireland, and that on account of hostility, or suspicion, or distrust, civil freedom is there curtailed and mutilated; that is what I mean by equality in legislating for Ireland in respect to civil franchise and political rights." [3 Hansard, lxxxvii. 1044. The noble Lord the Under Secretary for War (the Marquess of Hartington), who had charge of this Bill, when he went to Chatsworth, could surround himself with friends and dependants; but if he crossed the Channel—and he had good Tipperary blood in his veins—he would find there friends as sincere and adherents as loyal as any that he prized in England, and he would ask whether they were fairly treated by this exclusion. Unfortunately, the system pursued by successive English Governments towards Ireland had been Divide et impera; Protestant had been set against Catholic, North against South, and the worst passions of each inflamed against the other. In March 1829, upon the question of Catholic Emancipation, the following words were used by the noble Lord now at the head of the Government:— Under a pure despotism a people may be contented, because all are slaves alike; but those who under a free Government are refused equal participation must be discontented. Everywhere they meet men of the same class, of the same rank, of the same talents, of the same attainments, as themselves, enjoying privileges and advantages from which they are debarred. What must be the inward feelings of such men? and could we be surprised if we found, that while we extorted our oaths of allegiance from their lips, their vows of abjuration should stand recorded on their hearts?" [2 Hansard, xx. 1248.] These were noble words of the noble Lord; but the words spoken then were equally applicable now. He trusted the noble Lord would recognise his own words, and that the lapse of more than thirty years had not chilled his heart. He trusted, at all events, that the House would force the Government to do this act of justice, and that Ireland would be made what she ought to be, the right arm of England. He begged to move, "That, in the opinion of this House, it is impolitic any longer to exclude Ireland from the operation of the Volunteer system, and unjust, should such exclusion continue, to tax Ireland for the support of English Volunteers."

COLONEL FRENCH

seconded the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, it is impolitic any longer to exclude Ireland from the operation of the Volunteer system, and unjust, should such exclusion continue to tax Ireland for the support of English Volunteers,"—(Mr. Bagwell,) —instead thereof.

MAJOR KNOX

expressed his surprise that an Irish Member who had held a high place in Her Majesty's Government should have made such a proposition. Without wishing to cast any imputation on the hon. Gentleman, he must say that he looked upon it only as a piece of electioneering tactics. At a time when so much dissatisfaction existed in Ireland, was it fit to make this proposal? Would the hon. Gentleman tell him that the men whom he proposed to arm would take the oath of allegiance to the Queen? [Colonel FRENCH: Yes, they would] He knew the Protestants of the North of Ireland, if wanted, would, as in 1848, come forward to defend their own rights and those of the Queen; but it would not be safe to place arms in the hands in which the proposition of the hon. Gentleman would place them. If that were done, the people of Ireland would be in much the same position as the people of the United States were now; the Protestants of the North and the Catholics of the South would turn their arms against one another. If only the Act would permit the English Volunteers to visit Ireland, the proposition would be warmly received.

SIR DE LACY EVANS

said, he had heard the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Knox) with surprise and regret, for he drew a picture of Ireland for which he (Sir De Lacy Evans) hoped there was no foundation. The hon. and gallant Gentleman represented one part of Ireland as hostile to another as the Northern and Southern States in America; but there was, he believed, no foundation for any such statement. The hon. and gallant Member seemed to forget that nobody could be received as a Volunteer unless he took the oath of allegiance. In the very temperate statement made by his hon. Friend (Mr. Bagwell) it was shown that within a very recent period there had been manifestations of loyalty and respect to the Throne in Ireland; and were they to be told that it would be highly improper and very dangerous to intrust arms to a large portion of the Irish people? His hon. Friend quoted the opinions of great statesmen, and, among others, an opinion of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, not at all in accord with the present Bill. But there was another authority not inferior, and, perhaps, by gentlemen on the other side considered superior to the authority of the noble Lord, and that was the authority of the late Duke of Wellington. If any person would look into the official letters of Sir Arthur Wellesley, when Secretary for Ireland in 1807—a time when, unfortunately, in consequence of the recent rebellion, a greater distrust of the feelings of the Irish people prevailed—he would find that Sir Arthur Wellesley spoke thus on this very subject of Volunteers:—"Some people say that the people of Ireland are not to be trusted. Now, I do not know that there is any truth in that statement, and I do not believe it." These were the words of a man who was responsible for the safety of this country and the peace of Ireland, a man of un- doubted sagacity in political matters. Now, this exclusion of Ireland from the Volunteer system was not only insulting—it was inequitable also, because Ireland was called upon to pay a portion of her taxes for the maintenance of the Volunteers in England and Scotland. Surely, there ought to be some positive reason given by Government fur inflicting this wrong. He hoped that the matter would be re-considered and that the House would manifest its feeling on the side of the Irish people.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, it would be his duty to oppose the Motion of the hon. Gentleman (Mrs Bagwell), but not upon the grounds given by the hon. and gallant Member for Dungan-non (Major Knox). Three years ago his noble Friend at the head of the Government explained the reasons for which he did not feel justified to recommend Her Majesty to avail herself of the patriotic offers from that country. He said, that it was not by way of insult to the Irish people, nor from want of confidence in their loyalty, that he was disinclined to accept their services as Volunteers; that he had no fear whatever, in case of invasion, that our Irish fellow-subjects, whether Catholics or Protestants, would be wanting in their duty. But a specific reason against raising Volunteers in Ireland was stated by his noble Friend, and it was this—that owing, unfortunately, to strong religious animosities in some parts of Ireland it was very much to be apprehended that the formation of Volunteer corps in that country would assume a religious character, and would not improbably lead to most serious collisions. Nor was that an unfounded supposition. Even in England, where happily religious differences had never reached so great a height, a Volunteer corps in Liverpool had assumed to a certain extent the organization of an Orange Society, and the consequence was that on one occasion a collision, fortunately not attended with loss of life, but in which severe injuries were inflicted, took place between that regiment and a militia regiment in which there were very many Irish Catholics. It was impossible for any man at all acquainted with the state of religious feeling in Ireland not to fear some such result, and it was that which prevented his noble Friend from accepting the services of Volunteers in Ireland. It was not denied that the English Volunteers were available to a certain extent for the defence of Ireland, and that any expenditure upon them was profitable to that country also. ("Oh!") The hon. Member said "Oh!" But, in case of invasion, the presence of so many Volunteer regiments in England would enable the Government to release a certain number of troops of the line for the defence of Ireland. Hitherto the English Volunteers had received almost no assistance from the national exchequer. The expenditure not only of time and labour, but also of money, which had fallen upon private individuals, amounted to a very heavy tax indeed; and instead of a complaint of Irish funds being devoted to the support of English Volunteers, if hon. Members insisted on looking at the matter in that point of view, they ought rather to congratulate themselves that Ireland and Irishmen had been saved from the very heavy tax of the Volunteer movement. It was not on the ground which had been urged by the hon. Member, or because the Government had any fear of want of loyalty on the part of the Irish nation, that he opposed this Amendment, but on account of the religious animosities which unfortunately prevailed in that country. Her Majesty's Government thought it undesirable to place arms in the hands of the people when a law existed under which the Lord Lieutenant, by a proclamation of a county or district might deprive them of those arms next day. On these grounds he must oppose the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman.

COLONEL FRENCH

said, he could not accept the quarrel in a regiment at Liverpool as a reason why Irishmen should not be allowed to protect their lives and pro-petty. He believed the noble Marquis would find that there were many more Englishmen than Irishmen engaged in that riot. He believed that upon all ordinary questions Her Majesty's Government were men of sense and wisdom; but it was once remarked by Sydney Smith that John Bull seemed to lose all his senses the moment the word "Ireland" was pronounced, and that it made him act with the ferocity of a savage and the fatuity of an idiot. He would remind the noble Lord at the head of the Government that the Volunteeer movement was no child of his. The executive Government, on the contrary, strongly opposed the formation of these bodies originally—or at any rate they threw cold water upon the movement—until sense of danger and the determination of the people to protect themselves overcame the noble Lord's scruples, and enforced the recognition of the Volunteers; and now the noble Lord seemed disposed, in his speeches in that House and in the country, to take a little more credit than was fairly due either to himself or his Government. In England the Volunteer movement, in the opinion of the noble Lord, was one of the noblest spectacles of prudence and patriotism of the present day; but when he came to Ireland, he seemed to be of opinion that Irishmen had neither prudence, patriotism, nor common sense. The Government would not trust an Irishman with arms, being apparently of opinion that he would shoot his neighbour with them. It was only when there was real danger that the courage and patriotism of Ireland were recognized. It was the worst policy in the world, and one more calculated than anything else to produce discontent, to maintain so broad a distinction as they did in the legislation for England and Ireland. They who knew the country—and unfortunately the noble Lord was not able to consult any one who did—could tell the noble Lord, however, that on the loyalty and discretion of Ireland the Government might implicitly rely. He appealed to the House to support the Amendment of his hon. Friend, and he trusted it would appear, that if a suspicion of Irishmen prevailed in the Government, it had not gone so far as to affect that House.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Really, Sir, I have very little to say after the short but conclusive statement of my noble Friend (the Marquess of Hartington). My hon. Friend who has moved this Resolution seems to be of opinion that Her Majesty's Government have not accepted the offers which have been made from Ireland for the formation of Volunteer corps because they distrust the loyalty of the people. Sir, we feel no such distrust. My hon. Friend (Mr. Bagwell) speaks for the loyalty of Munster. The hon. and gallant officer opposite (Major Knox) did justice to the loyalty of Ulster. My hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel French) speaks for Con-naught, and I beg leave, so far as my local knowledge goes, to confirm his statement. No doubt some hon. Member will also speak for Leinster; and, putting all these testimonies together, no one need question that the Irish are a very loyal and well-disposed people. I know very well that some months ago some very foolish speeches were made, and were followed by a few very foolish riots; but we quite understand the foolish source in which those proceed- ings originated, and attach no importance to them. I am persuaded that the Irish are as loyal as any nation can be expected to be, and as loyal as most other nations are. I am quite satisfied, that if any occasion should arise which should render it necessary to call upon Irishmen to arm in defence of their country, they would meet that call with the same loyalty and devotion which they have manifested at former periods. Luckily, however, we are not at present in that condition; and I trust that for a long time to come we shall not have occasion to call upon them to arm against a hostile attack. But there is in Ireland one peculiarity which does not equally exist in this country,—namely, that by an unfortunate difference of opinion upon religious questions, there is a tendency to display a national quality which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Roscommon thought we imagined we were deficient in—a national pugnacity. My gallant Friend said we appeared to distrust the pugnacious qualities of Irishmen. So far from calling that quality in question, however, we believe it to be exuberant in Ireland, and we are satisfied, from peculiar circumstances which experience has shown us, that this quality is too apt, without adequate necessity to be called into action. We wish to reserve the pugnacity of Irishmen for the time when some more worthy enemy calls for it to be exemplified. We do not wish them, by way of keeping their hand in, to exercise on each other that admirable quality, which ought to be reserved for a better occasion. That is really the whole matter. I cannot say that we have received any very numerous applications from Ireland, because Irishmen, having the quality of prudence as well as pugnacity, must know that the formation of Volunteer corps is a very heavy expense to those who belong to them; and, as has been very properly stated by my noble Friend, so far from the Irish people being taxed for the maintenance of the existing Volunteer corps, the great burden of those corps falls on the people of Great Britain, who contribute largely and most generously—for great expenses are incurred, not only by the Volunteers themselves, but by gentlemen in the neighbourhood in which each corps is formed. I quite enter into the feelings of my hon. and gallant Friend, who wishes to see the same thing done in Ireland, but I do not admit the force of his quotation. He cited an opinion, expressed before Catholic Emancipation was passed, that there ought to be perfect equality between the two religions in Ireland. We have all come to be of that opinion; but the quotation related to a state of things which happily has long ceased to exist, and has no bearing on the Motion before the House. I trust that the House will not believe that in declining to accept the Amendment we are expressing any doubt of the loyalty of the Irish nation. On the contrary, we feel that loyalty as strongly as the hon. Member can do. But we think that there are peculiar social conditions in that country which would make it unwise to place arms in the hands of those who, having opposite and conflicting opinions, might be led to use those arms in a manner for which they are not intended. If the hon. Gentleman would only carry back his recollection a couple of years, he would be aware of a case in which, arms having been obtained, were used very destructively by two bodies of men, one against the other. We wish for peace in Ireland, internally as well as externally, and therefore we are not inclined to adopt a measure the tendency of which would be, I am afraid, to disturb the peace.

MR. MAGUIRE

Sir, before referring to the speech of the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government, I would say a word in defence of the motives of my hon. Friend the Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell). I do not believe he was actuated by so unworthy a motive as that attributed to him by the hon. and gallant Member for Dungannon (Major Knox), who accused him of having brought this Motion forward as a kind of claptrap for electioneering purposes. Had he done so, he would, in my mind, have been guilty of an unworthy and dishonourable act; for to bring forward a grave and serious subject with such a motive and for such an object, would, according to my notion of public duty, be an act of that character. But I am certain that the hon. and gallant Member did not desire to convey the charge which his taunt no doubt implied. Sir, when the noble Lord asserted that the Irish were a loyal people, there was a laugh of derision from certain quarters. ["No, no!"] There certainly was from some hon. Gentlemen—not from those who now cry "No, no!" But let me assume, merely for the sake of argument, that disaffection does exist in Ireland—I ask, is not the policy adopted by the Government the very policy most calculated to foster and promote it? That policy is calculated to create, in the mind of a susceptible people, the belief that England regards them with jealousy and distrust, and does not wish to allow them the same rights and privileges which she enjoys herself. I am as anxious as any man in England can be to witness a good feeling existing between the two countries; but I solemnly believe that the policy systematically adopted towards Ireland, of treating her differently from England, does prevent the growth of that feeling of amity which I would desire to see existing, and not only induces discontent, but affords an excuse for disaffection. The noble Lord declares he has confidence in the loyalty of the Irish people, and therefore he will not arm them. The noble Lord is quite ready to accept their services when there is danger, but he will not allow them the means of preparing to meet it. When the enemy are at the gates, or when some hostile ship is in the waters of an Irish harbour, then the noble Lord will rely on the pa triotism of the people of Ireland, although he had distrusted them up to that very moment. But how can a people be ready to repel invasion, unless they have previously acquired some military experience, and have learned the use of arms? If they were armed, as the people of this country are armed, then indeed they would be able to defend the honour of their country; but while England is pre pared, through her Volunteer organization, to repel any attack from a foreign foe, Ireland must rely for her defence upon the police of that country, and, comparatively speaking, a handful of soldiers. This surely is not the state of things which ought to exist in the different portions of the same Empire. But the noble Lord states that Ireland is excluded from the operation of the Volunteer system—in fact, from the right of carrying arms—not because the people are disloyal, but because there exists in Ireland strong feelings arising from religious differences. If that be the case, then there must be something wrong at bottom; and it is the bounden duty of Government to search into the cause of those religious differences, to do away with the evil, and free Ireland from its baneful effects. Is the Established Church this cause of difference?—is it the ulcer which eats into the heart of the country? If so—and I do not now attempt to enter into the question as to whether it is or it is not—I say the Government ought to deal boldly and fearlessly with what, on the showing of the noble Lord, is the cause of a state of things which justifies Her Majesty's Government in dealing differently with Ireland from what they do with England. I, however, do not believe that there exists such a feeling of animosity between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland as would lead them to assail and massacre each other, if they had arms in their hands. In three of the provinces of Ireland no such feeling prevails, though in Belfast and two or three of the counties of Ulster some such feeling, excited by foolish persons, may be found. For my own city, and for the south of Ireland generally, I can answer that the feeling of animosity which is alleged as a reason why the Irish people should not enjoy the right of freemen, has no existence. I believe, on the contrary, that if the Volunteer system were extended to Ireland, Catholics and Protestants would be found to act together harmoniously under the same flag. With respect to loyalty, I conceive that the best way to make men loyal is, first of all, to govern them wisely and well. Now, everybody knows that there is great misery and distress in Ireland—that her people are suffering from a series of calamities; and I have no hesitation in saying that a good deal of ill-feeling has been created in that country by the persistent denial of its terrible extent. Every sympathy has been expressed for the distress of Lancashire; and I myself joined in the expression of that sympathy; there have been enquiries into distress in Lancashire, and this very evening the President of the Poor Law Board has given notice of a proposal for public works in Lancashire. Now, deeper and more terrible distress has existed in Ireland for the last two or three years; but has there been sympathy expressed or it, or inquiry made into it, or has there been any attempt to apply the same means of relief as have been given, or as are offered, to Lancashire? If there be discontent in Ireland, it is not difficult to trace its causes. There is one way, and a sure way, by which you can promote good feeing and banish discontent, and that is, by governing the people of both countries in the same spirit, and by giving them the advantage of the same laws. Another way to make men loyal is to trust them with arms. I do not believe, from what I know of my countrymen, that any man who took the oath of allegiance as a Volunteer would violate that oath; for, besides the religious obligation which an oath imposes, there is that feeling of pride and manliness and chivalry in the Irishman which would prevent him from turning traitor to the flag which he had sworn to defend. If, however, the Government will not intrust arms to the people of Ireland, and thus prepare them to repel invasion, should it ever menace their shores, at least let him, in the name of Heaven, afford them the means, by employment and by wise and; generous legislation, of protecting themselves from what is far worse than the foreign invasion—the wolf of hunger that prowls round the door of every peasant's house in that land.

MAJOR KNOX

wished to explain, that in what he had said he did not intend to impute dishonourable motives to the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell).

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

observed, that at the present moment there was in London a distinguished Volunteer Regiment, composed of Irishmen both Protestants and Catholics, and in discipline and in efficiency that regiment was equal to any other regiment of Volunteers. He Was not aware of any very general or urgent desire on the part of the people in Ireland to become Volunteers; but if Ireland wished to have the Volunteer system, it ought to be extended to that country, because the law should be the same for Ireland as for England.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 156; Noes 45: Majority, 111.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.

Clause 7, (Power for Volunteer to quit Corps).

MR. HARVEY LEWIS

said, that this clause was objected to by many Volunteers as cumbrous and unworkable. In the absence of the hon. Baronet the Member for Finsbury, he moved an Amendment to the effect, that instead of an appeal to two deputy lieutenants or one deputy lieutenant and one justice of the peace, in the event of a commanding officer refusing to strike the name of any one off the muster roll, there should be a court of inquiry.

COLONEL SYKES

said, he saw no difficulty in the practical working of the clause.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, he did not see the force of the objection to the clause. It was not intended to place any obstruction in the way of a Volunteer quitting the force if he gave proper notice and fulfilled the prescribed conditions. A commanding officer had no right to retain on the roll a Volunteer who complied with those requirements; and if there was any dispute on that point it, was to be decided by an appeal to the officials mentioned.

MR. HARVEY LEWIS

thought the clause permitted the commanding officer to withhold a discharge.

COLONEL FRENCH

said, that the clause expressly provided that the name of any Volunteer, on his complying with; specified conditions, should be struck out of the muster roll of the corps by the commanding officer.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, he had never heard any Volunteer object to the clause. He thought, however, that it was a serious objection to the court of appeal constituted by the clause that it had not the power of enforcing the attendance of witnesses. At present Volunteers were free, from control except on parade, and could not be compelled to attend before a court of inquiry.

MAJOR KNOX

said, that if the last paragraph of the clause were omitted, that would render the matter of retirement perfectly clear.

MR. HEADLAM

said, the clause stated the circumstances under, which Volunteers were entitled to be discharged, and was drawn solely and entirely for their benefit.

MR. HENLEY

There was some doubt as to the meaning of the words, paying all money due by him "for any subscription or fine, or on any other account." If an appeal was given in any matter of dispute between a Volunteer and the commanding officer, the meaning of the words "or on any other account" should be rendered more clear, and he wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to the matter.

MR. HEADLAM

said, that he would give his attention to the point.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 8 (Discharge of Volunteer taking service in Militia or Army) agreed to.

Clause 9 (Power for Crown to put Volunteers under command of General or Field Officers).

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN

said, that by this clause Her Majesty was empowered to put Volunteers under the command of any General or Field Officers of the Army, when on actual military service, or when voluntarily doing any military duty—including, he supposed, public ceremonies and reviews, He hoped that the Militia would always cordially co-operate with the Volunteers on all occasions, without any jealous feeling; but it would follow from this clause, supposing Volunteer and Militia officers were out together, that the senior Volunteer officer would supersede the senior Militia officer. He thought that on all these occasions the senior officer ought to take precedence. In order to secure this, he would propose the insertion of the words "or Militia" towards the end of the clause.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, the clause made no alteration in the existing law. The clause was simply to enable Her Majesty to appoint an officer of the army to command the Volunteers in actual or voluntary service. In the event of the Militia and Volunteers being associated, and there being no commander specially appointed by Her Majesty, the senior officer would take the command.

MAJOR KNOX

wished to know, whether the clause meant that no Volunteer officer, however efficient he might be, should be appointed to command? Many Volunteer officers had served in the army, and he thought the Secretary of State should be empowered to put them in command, if necessary.

COLONEL SYKES

said, that the proposition of the hon. and gallant Member for North Lancashire would give Militia officers precedence over Volunteers.

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN

said, that was not his intention; but according to the clause as it stood no Militia officer, whatever his rank, could command a Volunteer regiment.

MR. HEADLAM

thought the clause had been misunderstood. It simply gave power to Her Majesty to select a particular individual to command on particular occasions, who should be a general or a field officer in the army. There was no intention to interfere with the status of Militia or Volunteer officers among themselves.

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN

was satisfied with the explanation of the hon. and learned Gentleman, and would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

suggested the insertion after "field officers" of the words "being of superior standing in rank," in order to prevent a major being put in command over a lieutenant colonel.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, the intention of the clause was to give Her Majesty power to appoint a colonel or a lieutenant colonel, and he had no objection to put in words to that effect.

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN

remarked that in the Militia there was no jealousy of being inspected by an inferior officer.

MAJOR KNOX

observed, that under certain circumstances it might be necessary to put a major in command, with the nominal rank of brigadier.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

thought, that on the whole, the question should be reserved for consideration on the Report.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 10 (Annual Inspection).

COLONEL BATHURST

, in reference to this and the following clause, pointed out that the out-lying country corps would be placed at a great disadvantage in consequence of their not being able to attend so many battalion drills as corps in towns. He thought some provision of efficiency should be made in their case.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

understood that each corps would be considered a battalion for the purposes of this Bill.

MR. HUMBERSTON

wished the noble Lord to consider the propriety of substituting, in the Older in Council, at all events in the case of the rank and file, additional drill for battalion drill, and instead of requiring them to attend three battalion parades, to allow them to attend twelve drills, one of which should be a battalion drill, in order to make them effective.

COLONEL NORTH

said, he saw no reason for altering the clause. It ought to be left to the discretion of the inspecting officer of the district whether he would inspect the corps separately or in administrative battalions.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, it was undoubtedly intended most fully to preserve the independence of all the Volunteer corps. No doubt there would be some difficulty in country corps attending in full strength at the inspections. It was very desirable to make the inspection as convenient as possible to every corps; but, as the hon. and gallant Officer (Colonel North) observed, it must rest with the inspecting officer to say whether he would inspect the corps separately or in administrative battalions.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

understood, that there would be nothing in the Bill, or in the regulations intended to be issued, which Would prevent the corps being inspected separately if that were found expedient.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 11 (Requisites of Efficiency under Orders in Council).

On Proviso, That any Order in Council under this section shall not take effect until after the expiration of one month after it has been laid before both Houses of Parliament,

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

proposed, that the latter part of the clause should be omitted, with the view of substituting for it the following words— The draught of any scheme to be from time to time submitted to Her Majesty in Council for approval under the present section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament one month at least before such scheme receives the approval of Her Majesty in Council. It would be an irregular proceeding for the House of Commons to have the power of altering an Order in Council which had been approved by Her Majesty. The usual practice was to lay a draught form before the House, in order that after the House had approved it, it should then receive the sanction of Her Majesty. The noble Marquis then explained the attendance at drill and other qualifications which it was proposed to prescribe for the artillery, rifle, and other Volunteer corps, as the standard of efficiency.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

admitted, that the Government had been liberal both with regard to pecuniary payment and the conditions that were to be attained; but with regard to battalion drill for administrative battalions, he thought the noble Lord could scarcely be aware of the condition of many country battalions. If the proposed conditions were strictly enforced, many of them would be broken up. It would be almost impossible for the men to attend three battalion drills, as each attendance would imply holiday for the day, and that they could not afford.

LORD ELCHO

said, the object of the Royal Commission was to make the drill as light as possible to the Volunteer, consistent with efficiency. The ordinary company drill was the basis of all efficiency, and it was thought, that if the companies were brought together three times a year for battalion drill, that would be sufficient. He believed it was the intention of the Government to act in the main upon the suggestions of the Royal Commission, and to give the 4s. a head for that purpose. But it was stated that there were cases where it would be perfectly impossible to bring the companies together for battalion drill, and it would be very hard that they should lose the grant. Colonel M'Murdo had just put in his hand a draft Order in Council, which provided that in the case of corps so circumstanced the Secretary of State might advise the remission of the number of attendances at battalion drill, on condition that there should be a proportionate increase of company drill, so as to entitle the corps to the grant. It would be left to the discretion of the Secretary of State to exercise his judgment according to the case made out by the applicants.

MR. HUMBERSTON

said, that wherever the companies met, there would be a certain number of individuals who could not be present at the drills.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the Order in Council met the objections which he had felt. If the Government chose to exact a larger number of company drills, the Volunteers would be prepared to undergo them.

COLONEL SYKES

said, that there could be no efficiency in a regiment unless the companies were occasionally brought together for movements in the field.

MR. BUXTON

asked, at what period the Volunteer year was to commence for drill and financial purposes.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, the certificate of efficiency would state that the person had attended drill during the twelve months last preceding the 30th November. He hoped to lay the draft Orders in Council upon the table as soon as this Bill should become law. It was certainly the intention of the War Office, in all ordinary cases, to insist on three battalion drills.

LORD ELCHO

said, that the commanding officer could give leave of absence where a party could not attend drill.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

suggested that the words "during the Session of Parliament," should be introduced after the words in the Amendment requiring the draught scheme to be laid before Parliament one month before receiving the Queen's approval.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said he would agree to the alteration.

The Amendment was altered accordingly and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 12 to 18 were agreed to.

Clause 19 (Application of Provisions as to actual Military Service to Volunteers acting in Suppression of Riots or Tumults).

MR. HIBBERT

expressed his regret that the Government proposed to continue the provision in the 44 Geo. III., c. 54, giving power to the Lord Lieutenant of counties to call upon the Volunteers to aid in the suppression of riots. At present, happily, the Volunteers were highly popular; but nothing could be more calculated to impair that popularity than calling upon them to interfere in disturbances, which might possibly arise from disputes as to wages between workmen and their employers. They should remember the ill-blood that had been occasioned by the employment of the Yeomanry in Lancashire in the early part of the century. It was true the power existed in the old Act, but he did not see why bad precedent should be followed and perpetuated. Cases might arise in which only a portion of a corps might obey the summons of the commanding officer to assemble; and the consequence would be that those who abstained from assembling would be regarded with suspicion as sympathizing with rioters and disloyal. He moved that the clause be omitted.

COLONEL SYKES

said, it might possibly happen that one part of a corps would take one side and another part the other.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the effect of the clause was in fact restrictive of the present power. It was not an exact copy of the clause in the old Act, but it required that the sanction of the Secretary of State should be given to the calling-out of the Volunteers by the Lord Lieutenant. He quite agreed that it was inexpedient that Volunteer corps should be used to suppress riots generally; but, at the same time, it was not impossible that under some circumstances their assistance would be most valuable. The clause put a double check upon the employment of Volunteers on civil occasions, inasmuch as when the Lord Lieutenant had called upon them to assemble for the suppression of riots or tumults, the approval of the Secretary of State was required.

MR. BUXTON

thought that nevertheless the clause ought to be struck out. The fact that there was such a clause would naturally lead Lords Lieutenant of counties to think that they could call out Volunteer corps, and it might he productive of serious evils. Some corps were composed of working men, and in some cases they might he disposed to use their rifles rather against those who led them. ["Oh!"] At least there might be occasions when they might be very indisposed to act against the rioters whom they were required to put down.

LOUD ELCHO

said, he should be sorry if anything should occur to make the Volunteer force less popular than it was at present, but he would remind the Committee that its present popularity had grown up under a power similar to that conveyed in the clauses under discussion. The only difference was that that power was now limited and could only be exercised in very extreme cases, and then only with the express sanction of the Secretary of State. He could not anticipate any such occurrences as those suggested by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. Buxton). The discipline of the Volunteer Corps forbade such a suspicion, and no corps were more highly disciplined than those corps which were mainly or entirely composed of artisans. He might observe that the evidence before the Commission showed that that discipline had had a most beneficial effect upon the habits of the men, who were remarkable for sobriety, and as well disposed as any body of men; the effect of the movement having been, to quote the words of one witness, to convert Chartists into loyal men. The Bill having been drawn up on the principle of Quieta non movere, he did not think it would be advisable to extinguish a power that could only be exercised in extreme cases, and under the special authority of the Secretary of State.

MR. AYRTON

hoped the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert) would persist in his opposition to the clause. They were called upon to pass a new law, and therefore were justified in considering the whole question. It was not correct to say that the cheek of requiring the sanction of the Secretary of State to the use of the Volunteers was a new one, because under the Act of George III. the sanction of Her Majesty was required. The objectionable feature of the clause was, that when Volunteers were called out, they were to be deemed in actual military service, and would receive pay and be subject to martial law. That arrangement would tend to alter the character of the Volunteer force in time of peace, and would place them in an unfortunate position towards their fellow subjects, By the law of the land, in case of riot the sheriff could call upon the community to aid him; and if the aid of the Volunteers was needed, they should be sworn in as constables in their character of civilians.

MR. A.F.EGERTON

ventured to differ from the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) when he said the Volunteers should be employed, as constables. He had a strong opinion that the Volunteer force would never—it was true occasions might arise, but they were so few that he might use the term never—be Called out to assist the civil power; but still he thought the authority to use them ought to be left with the Lord Lieutenant of the county, under the sanction of the Secretary of State.

MR. POTTER

said, he was old enough to remember the disastrous affair at Peterloo, and he knew well that some of the Yeomanry officers engaged in it—most excellent and amiable men—had scarcely ever got over the odium of it. If regular troops only had been employed, there would never have been such a melancholy loss of life; and looking back to the affair, he should strongly deprecate bringing Volunteers in contact with the people.

MR. ROGERS

hoped that the Volunteers never would be called out to aid the civil power, but he looked upon them as an assurance of peace, not only abroad, but at home; and the knowledge that the power of calling in the assistance of the Volunteers existed would always be a security against riot.

MR. EVANS

said, it was perfectly true that in the existing Act a somewhat more stringent clause existed; but of the Volunteers he had spoken to on the subject very few were aware of this clause, or knew they were liable to be called out in that way. It was a duty from which he was sure they would be inclined to shrink. He hoped the clause would be struck out.

MR. SELWYN

desired to point out that the clause applied only to Volunteers who should voluntarily assemble, with the approval of the Secretary of State, on being called upon by the Lord Lieutenant. The cases in which the services of the Volunteers would be thus required would be very rare—he hoped that one might never occur; but it must be borne in mind that the au- thorities of the counties had constitutionally the power of calling out the posse comitatûs, and might therefore call upon the Volunteers. Surely it would be the height of absurdity to call out a body of drilled men, and send them out as a body of special constables with sticks in their hands. He supported this clause in the interests of peace. In many parts of the kingdom the force of regular troops was exceedingly small, and nothing would be more likely to check a riot in its outset than the knowledge that the authorities had the power of calling to their aid a large force of Volunteers.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

thought that in the cause of peace and humanity the clause ought to be omitted. If there was a riot, a small number of regular soldiers would have a greater effect upon the mob than a large number of Volunteers. As regarded its being a voluntary assembling, that was a reason why he objected to it; because if it was necessary to call them out at all, the service ought to be compulsory. He believed this clause would be distasteful to, and have a bad effect upon the Volunteers themselves, and therefore he should Vote against it.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

said, the discussion had changed his views, and he was inclined to Vote with the Member for Old-ham (Mr. Hibbert) very much on the grounds stated by the hon. Member for Westminster. The voluntary part of the clause was the very part that made it objectionable, for it would place the matter somewhat in the nature of a partisan warfare; for some Volunteers would come, and some would stop away. If the force was to be used at all, the employment should be compulsory, and not left to the option of the men. Nothing would be so fatal to the Volunteer movement as to generate the suspicion that the force was a power behind a class for any purpose whatever. The emergencies in which the necessity of the services of the Volunteers would be required would be very few; and when they arose, Parliament would readily make the necessary provisions.

MR. HEADLAM

said, he quite concurred with those who maintained that it was, as a general rule, inexpedient that Volunteers should be employed against a mob; but he, at the same time, thought that when they could be called out for that purpose only by the Lord Lieutenant under the sanction of the Secretary of State, no danger need be apprehended from placing in his hands the power which the clause proposed to give. He could conceive circumstances in which it might be exceedingly desirable to exercise such a power. There were, in the north of England especially, many artillery Volunteer corps, and they might, on an emergency, do considerable service, if posted in strong places, not with the view of using them against the mob, but of holding them while the regular troops and the police were engaged in quelling a disturbance.

EARL GROSVENOR

said, the responsibility of taking the command of a body of Volunteers with rifles in their hands against a mob was one which many commanding officers would not like to assume.

SIR MINTO FARQUHAR

feared, that if the clause were passed, the Volunteer force would be likely to lose much of the popularity which it now so largely enjoyed.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTÌNGTON

said, that as it was apparently the general wish of the Committee that the clause should not be persevered with, he should not press it to a division.

Clause struck out.

Clause 20 (Provision for Officers and Men disabled, and for Widows of Officers killed) agreed to.

Clause 21 (Discipline of Volunteers while not on actual Military Service).

SIR ROBERT CLIFTON

moved an Amendment in the section of the clause which authorizes a commanding officer to strike off the muster-roll any Volunteer for certain specified causes, and for other sufficient cause—"the existence and sufficiency of such causes respectively to be judged of by the commanding officer." The object of the Amendment being to give the inculpated officer the right of trial by a court of inquiry. The clause had been made much more objectionable than it was in the old Act, for now the colonel could dismiss any officer of a corps, as well as any private, without trial, and after the dismissal he had not the power of entering any other Volunteer corps. It seemed to him that they should allow a member of a Volunteer company who had come patriotically forward, sacrificing time and money, at least the privileges of a common soldier. The soldier could call for a court martial, and had the power of appeal; whereas the Volunteer had not the slightest tribunal, and might be at any moment dismissed, he would not say through the whim of, but disagreement with his commanding officer. The hon. Member having referred to the Report and Evidence of the Royal Commission in support of his views, said, he trusted the House would show their sense of gratitude to the gentlemen who came forward most patriotically when the noble Lord at the head of the Government cried "Wolf!" and not deny them privileges possessed by the common soldier.

Amendment proposed, In page 8, line 17, to leave out from the word "cause" to the word "Officer" inclusive, in line 19, in order to insert the words "such causes respectively to be committed to writing, and communicated to the accused by the Adjutant of such corps, and the existence and sufficiency of such causes respectively to be judged of by a court to be summoned by the Commanding Officer, and to consist of one Captain, two Subaltern Officers, and two Non-Commissioned Officers or Privates of the same corps.

MR. HARVEY LEWIS

said, he had spoken to many Volunteers, officers, and privates, and they one and all condemned this clause. Suggestions had been thrown out that it did not apply to officers. He apprehended it might be strained to apply to them; but supposing it could not, why should a private, who was often in as good a position as an officer, have his prospects in life blasted without trial? It was a dangerous power to intrust to any commanding officer, and would only lead to ill-feeling in the Volunteer force, which had hitherto been in a state of harmony.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

loped the Committee would assent to the clause in its present shape. It was, he might add, never intended that it should apply to officers. With reference to the power which it gave over the private, it night be sufficient to say that such a power existed under the old Act. There seemed to be some confusion in the mind of the hon. Baronet between the witnesses and the Commissioners. The hon. Baronet quoted in his favour the opinions of two officers who were examined; but as the Commissioners knew perfectly well that the powers given by the Bill to commanding officers of Volunteer regiments already existed, and as they did not deem it necessary to notice the opinions of those two officers, it might be fairly assumed that the Commissioners did not agree with them. It had been urged that dismissal was a power not given to officers commanding regiments of the Line. This was quite true, but it was not possible to institute any comparison between Volunteers and the Line. It was true a commanding officer in the Line could not dismiss a private; but a private in a Line regiment could not dismiss himself in fourteen days. A Volunteer private could give notice and withdraw in fourteen days; a regular soldier could not quit the army until after a service of many years. The Volunteer was not subject to a variety of punishments which could be inflicted on a private in a Line regiment by order of the commanding officer. This power of dismissal was, in fact, the only power which the commanding officer of Volunteers possessed for the punishment of an unruly or refractory member of his corps; and when they were voting money for the support of the Volunteers, they ought not to diminish the means of keeping up discipline. As to the court of inquiry, it must either be made compulsory on the commanding officer to abide by its decision, or he must be allowed to disregard it. If the commanding officer were allowed to disregard the decision of the court of inquiry, it seemed entirely nugatory; and if it were made imperative on him to abide by the decision of the court of inquiry, it would be investing the court of inquiry with powers which it had never possessed, and which had always been possessed by the commanding officer. The functions of a court of inquiry were clearly laid down in the regulations. It was not a judicial body. It had no power to administer an oath or to compel the attendance of witnesses. It was proposed by this Amendment to make it a judicial body in a very inconvenient form, to invest it with powers of deciding without any security that it would arrive at proper conclusions, and to place the discipline of the force in the care of a committee, instead of in that of the commanding officers with guarantees sufficiently broad to prevent abuse. He was quite aware that there were many commanding officers of Volunteers who were not unwilling to get rid of the responsibility which fell upon them; but the Government was not willing that, while accepting the honour they should evade the duty which attached to it; and he believed that if an officer was not fit to exercise the only power which was placed in his hands, he was not fit to be a commanding officer at all. It seemed to him that a severe blow would be inflicted upon the discipline of Volunteer regiments if the Amendment were adopted; and he would remind those who were inclined to favour it, that if the power of dismissal were misused or abused, the decision of the commanding officer would not be final—although he by no means wished it to be understood that the War Office would intermeddle in an unnecessary and vexatious manner with the decisions of commanding officers.

LORD ELCHO

hoped the Committee would reject the Amendment, for the reasons which the noble Lord had very clearly stated, and retain a clause which was essential to the discipline of the Volunteers. It was only under this clause that commanding officers could exercise proper control over the members of their corps; and even supposing they exercised the power given to them too rigidly, there was an appeal to the Secretary of State, who might refuse to confirm what the commanding officer had done. He thought, therefore, there was no danger of the power being abused. He did not believe that they would have had the question brought forward unless there had been some special reasons for it. In the course of the winter a printed paper was sent to every commanding officer of Volunteers, which contained extracts from a speech just delivered at a meeting in a certain borough, and a portion of the extracts was in these terms— He regretted to hear that dissensions existed in two metropolitan corps, between the colonels and the men. Those corps were the South Middlesex and the Westminster, and the dissensions arose from the colonels having arbitrarily dismissed men under the Act of George IV., from which decisions there was no appeal. That was a mistake, as there was an appeal. The same gentleman went on to say— The brave, honourable, and patriotic men who compose the Volunteer corps are thus treated differently from soldiers in the standing army, and even worse than criminals, at the will, perhaps, of an incompetent officer, whose only idea is to maintain strict discipline. That was the speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for Nottingham, and he did not know whether it was circulated by himself.

SIR ROBERT CLIFTON

said, the printed matter referred to had been cut from the columns of The Morniny Post.

LORD ELCHO

He would venture to say that reprinting such a speech, and circulating it in the manner he had noticed, was not a step calculated to promote discipline, but rather to cause dissensions between commanding officers and their regiments. If the hon. Baronet could point to only two cases among 150,000 enrolled Volunteers, the force having existed since 1859, it was sufficient to prove that the existing law worked well. However, this was the speech, and here was the Amendment. Although an association had been formed called "The Volunteer Defence Association," of which he believed the hon. Member for Finsbury was the head—

MR. COX

said, that although a Volunteer, he had nothing on earth to do with any such Association.

LORD ELCHO

begged to apologize to the hon. Gentleman, and to express his regret that he had connected his name with this association. In consequence of the speech of the hon. Baronet, Petitions, which received but few signatures, had been got up against this Bill, and Volunteers had gone to the parades of other corps to excite hostility to it. He was told that Borne who went to a parade of the "Devil's Own" were informed by the officer in command of one of the companies that he was so far from agreeing with them that he thought that a Volunteer who disobeyed his commanding officer ought to be shot to death by musketry. The two cases to which the hon. Baronet had referred in his speech occurred, one in the corps of Lord Ranelagh, who brought against the parties an action for libel, and compelled them to sign a paper apologizing in the humblest manner, and the other in that of his noble Friend the Member for Chester (Earl Grosvenor), whom no one would suspect of abusing his powers, and who was as much beloved by his men as was any officer who commanded any regiment of Volunteers. The noble Lord the Under Secretary had rested the defence of this clause upon the true grounds that it was one seldom exercised and never abused; and he trusted the House would reject the Amendment.

SIR DE LACY EVANS

agreed with the noble Lord that great difficulties were imposed upon officers commanding Volunteer corps, and that their power was materially controlled by the Secretary of State for War. He was not prepared to say, that because this clause existed in the old Act, it ought to be retained in this one; but he thought that the continued success of the Volunteer movement was evidence that the commanding officers did, to a great extent, perform their duties to the satisfaction of of the public. It would not become him, as an old military man, to interfere with the discipline of these corps, more especially as those who were dissatisfied might appeal to the Secretary of State. It was easy to maintain discipline while Volunteer corps were fêted and applauded on every hand; but this could not continue for ever; and if the organization was to be made permanent, some such authority as the clause provided must be given to commanding officers.

MR. BUXTON

hoped that individual cases would be kept out of this discussion, because in this matter no court of appeal could be more unsatisfactory than the House of Commons. He had intended to support the Amendment of the hon Baronet, because he thought that the clause conferred a most arbitrary power, which might be exercised in temperately and unjustly; but he saw no way of getting over the objection that the court of inquiry would be inadequate to the discharge of the duty sought to be imposed upon it. In this dilemma the only alternative was to leave the power in the hands of the commanding officer, who would probably generally find it prudent to accept the assistance of a committee of inquiry.

MR. COX

was anxious that the Committee should agree to this Amendment, because, if they did not, he expected that he should for the observations which he was about to make receive his dismissal from the corps in which he was a full private. The noble Lord (Lord Elcho) had not stated from whom he obtained his information respecting the Volunteer Defence Association. He (Mr. Cox) had no sympathy with noble Lords who upon hearsay evidence charged other Members of that House with belonging to associations intending to excite ill-feeling between Volunteers and their commanding officer. The noble Lord would have done well before charging him with such a connection to have made some communication to him on the subject. He spoke in the name of hundreds of Volunteers when he said that a severe blow would be struck at the force if this power were retained. Not one man in a hundred, when he joined the Volunteers, knew the existence of the arbitrary power to which he was subjecting himself. The Under-Secretary turned to "the red-book"; but very few had got that "red-book," fewer still had read it, and hardly any of those who read it would be able to understand it. The Petitions against this power, to which reference had been made, were being numerously signed in various parts of the country, and would be presented to the House in a few days. The noble Lord (The Marquess of Hartington) said, if a Volunteer disapproved the system as now existing, he could dismiss himself; but even that satisfaction was sometimes denied. He was acquainted with a Volunteer, who, being unable to concur in the arbitrary proceedings carried on in the regiment of which he was a member, and not wishing to create an unpleasant feeling between officers and men, determined to send in his resignation. He paid every demand that could be made upon him; he complied in every respect with the Act of Parliament; in the presence of witnesses he handed over his rifle and accoutrements in proper order; and having done this, he wrote a very proper and polite letter to his commanding officer, resigning his position in the Volunteer force, and giving his reasons for doing so. According to the rules, as stated by the noble Lord, at the end of fourteen days he would have ceased to be a Volunteer of the particular corps, and might have joined any other of the administration of which he more highly approved. But the commanding officer before the fourteen days expired dismissed him from the service, placarded and advertised him in the shop windows of the neighbourhood and in the newspapers, and this prevented him from joining any other corps. [The Marquess of HARTINGTON inquired the name of this Volunteer.] He had no objection to state, for the information of the noble Lord, that the Volunteer's name was Mr. Hutchins. Having appealed to the War Office, he was referred to the Lord-Lieutenant of the county, and afterwards back again to the War Office, which authority confirmed the sentence of the commanding officer. If the House desired to put an end to the Volunteer force, they would adopt the clause as it stood, which left it optional with a commander to dismiss one of his men for not touching his cap properly. He undertook to say that before the 25th December, if the clause passed, the force would be diminished by fully seven-eighths.

LORD ELCHO

said, it was quite true that Mr. Hutchins had given up his rifle and accoutrements in proper order, and had likewise satisfied all pecuniary claims; but he was informed that the letter was couched in such improper terms that the authorities at the War Office on reading it over desired the commanding officer to dismiss Mr. Hutchins, and not to allow him to resign.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, the question involved in this clause was really whether the discipline of Volunteer corps should be maintained. Commanding officers ought to make up their minds to the bitters as well as the sweets of their position; and if they felt it to be clearly their duty to dismiss a member, they ought to take that step, regardless of the clamour which might he excited.

MR. W. E. FORSTER

wished to give his reasons for voting against the Motion of the hon. Member for Nottingham. The House should consider the position in which the Volunteer commanding officer was placed. If they refused him the power which was now asked, they must relieve him of his responsibility, and give him a court martial. Let them remember that Volunteers, however peaceable, were still men with arms in their hands, and that the commanding officer would be placed in a great difficulty if he could not get rid of a black sheep without appealing to a Committee. It was evident, therefore, that either this power must be given or else the court martial. [Mr. Cox: Hear hear!] The hon. Member for Finsbury said "Hear, hear!" but he could tell him that the institution of Volunteer courts martial would be the most unpopular step that could be taken. Let it be remembered that pending the proceedings the Volunteer must be placed under arrest. He believed that the feeling to which the hon. Member for Finsbury had alluded was very much exaggerated, and he could certainly say for the Yorkshire corps that they had no wish to be governed by a committee instead of their commanding officer. Neither did he think that the power given by the clause was likely to be arbitrarily used, as commanding officers knew very well that such conduct would very soon diminish their corps. Besides, in case of any abuse of the power there were two remedies—one an appeal to the War Office, and another a charge laid before the Lord Lieutenant. He could only speak as a captain of Volunteers, but he knew the feeling of the county from which he came, and he believed that the Volunteers there were fully prepared to submit to whatever might be necessary for the maintenance of discipline.

EARL GROSVENOR

said, that he had been attacked in a portion of the public press on account of some acts done by him in his capacity of commanding officer. He was quite willing to go into the case on which the hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Clifton) had proposed to attack him; but he doubted whether the Committee would be inclined to listen to it. ["No!"] He would prefer to give up his position as commanding officer rather than consent to have his power taken away It should be remembered that the commanding officer had the power of dismissal under the old Act; and the best guarantee a corps had that the commanding officer would use his power discreetly was, that if he did otherwise, he would be very likely to lose a large number of his men. Although the Act had been in operation three years, he was not aware of any instance in which the power had been intemperately exercised.

SIR DE LACY EVANS

supported the clause in the Bill. As an old officer, he knew the necessity of establishing the means of preserving discipline among a large body of men. It was to be remembered that privates and officers of the Volunteer force could relieve themselves from service in fourteen days, whether the commanding officer wished them or did not wish them to do so. The commanding officer ought to have some power as a counterpoise, and under these circumstances he did not see how the House could refuse the very limited power asked for in this Bill. He thought it would not he judicious to enter into the discussion of particular cases, but he must express his opinion that the noble Lord who had last addressed the Committee had managed his battalions very judiciously.

COLONEL SYKES

said, it had been urged that an appeal was given to the War Office in the case of the exercise of any arbitrary power on the part of a commanding officer; but he thought the War Office had quite enough to do at present without additional responsibility being thrown upon it. Some independent court of appeal ought to be provided for the Volunteer force.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, it was not surprising that the Volunteers of the country should be jealous of arbitrary power confided to commanding officers, more especially when they saw that, in dealing with questions in dispute between commanding officers and the privates, the Horse Guards always supported the former against their subordinates. An instance of this had recently come before the public in the case of an officer commanding a regiment in India.

COLONEL BARTTELOT

rose to order. The case of the colonel in India had no- thing to do with the Question before the House.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, the Horse Guards admitted that the colonel to whom be referred had not shown a capacity for commanding a regiment, but they sent him back to make a further trial of his incapacity. He doubted whether the Amendment of the hon. Member for Nottingham would meet the case of the Volunteers in a satisfactory manner; but some measure should be devised for checking the irresponsible authority of colonels.

COLONEL BARTTELOT

hoped the noble Lord would not withdraw the clause, because if he did, the discipline of the Volunteers would be at an end. The country granted a large sum of money for the maintenance of the force, and had a right to expect that it would be maintained in an efficient state of discipline. If, however, they took away from the responsible commanding officers the small amount of power they now possessed, they would tend materially to damage the value of the force. Only three instances had been cited of a commanding officer having dealt hastily or rashly with those under his command, and these had all occurred in London. He believed, that if the Committee left this power in the hands of the commanding officers, they would never have cause to regret it.

MR. EVANS

said, that in the corps to which he, as a private, had the honour to belong, not the slightest difficulty or inconvenience had arisen; and he had not heard a single instance in the other corps in the same county in which the conduct of a commanding officer in dismissing a man had been objected to. He hoped, therefore, the noble Lord would not withdraw the clause.

MR. AYRTON

said, that he had enlisted as a full private when there were only some 500 Volunteers, and when there came to be 150,000 he thought he might retire from the service. The sting of the clause was that the commanding officer was allowed to judge the conduct of a Volunteer, and to pronounce, it might be, sentence of condemnation upon him; and this sentence, they had been told, that the commanding officer thought himself entitled to publish. Now, in this way it seemed possible that what might otherwise he a gross libel would be made, by this clause, a privileged communication. He thought, therefore, that it was necessary either to change the clause, so as to prevent a commanding officer from publishing anything he chose as a privileged communication, or introduce some provision by which the Volunteer might be enabled to bring the matter before a court of justice, or otherwise right himself in the opinion of his friends and of society. In its present form, the proposal of the hon. Member (Sir Robert Clifton) was untechnical and unadvisable; but he hoped that the noble Lord would consider whether the clause could not be modified in the way he had suggested.

MR. DENMAN

said, he had the honour of serving as a private in the corps commanded by the noble Lord the Member for Chester (Earl Grosvenor), in which the agitation had arisen that had been made so much of. He did not speak without considerable knowledge as to the feelings in that regiment,; and he was sure, that if the regiment were polled, nine-tenths of the men would be in favour of retaining the present power in the hands of the commanding officer. He was glad that the clause providing that Volunteer corps might be called out in case of civil disturbance had been withdrawn, because a Volunteer might well say—" Non hœc in fœdera veni." But, on the other hand, when they entered a regiment, Volunteers knew perfectly well that they would be under the orders of the commanding officer, and that if they misbehaved themselves, they would be liable to dismissal. He had never yet heard any one say that in the instances which were brought forward, and particularly in that which was to be discussed upon the Motion of the hon. Member (Sir Robert Clifton), the commanding officer had not done quite right, and had no other option.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

believed that this clause would operate most detrimentally to the Volunteer force. Many of these commanding officers were young men, who had obtained their commands owing to their high rank and position, and who ought hardly to be intrusted with the arbitrary control which they would possess if the clause were not qualified.

MR. HEADLAM

said, he was glad the clause had been so much discussed, because it had shown a great preponderance of opinion in favour of its retention. Whatever the merits or demerits of the question it was clear that the law, as it now stood, was precisely the same as that which regulated the original Volunteer force, and which still regulated the Yeomanry and existing Volunteers, and he thought it would be wise to let well alone. There had been, hitherto, extraordinary harmony between the officers and men of the Volunteer corps, but the remedy now proposed would inflict great injury on the service. The court of inquiry which the hon. Baronet proposed was objectionable, as the sentence would ultimately depend on the commanding officer, while he would be deprived of all responsibility. If they were to have a tribunal to determine these cases, he knew of no other than a court martial; and the question was, whether they would subject Volunteers to a trial of that description. In a regiment of the Line the commanding officer had ample power to enable him to maintain discipline. If a man were guilty of the slightest impertinence, or of even using a disrespectful word, he could summon him before a court martial; and if he struck an officer, he was liable to be shot. But in a Volunteer regiment no power of that kind existed, and it was impossible the commanding officer could maintain discipline unless he possessed the power given by the clause. That power was infinitely better than anything proposed in its place, while it had been in force many years without doing injury to any one.

SIR ROBERT CLIFTON

, in reply, said that it was in consequence of a letter which he had received from the noble Earl, (Earl Grosvenor) that he had not the other night brought on the question to which reference had been made. It would have been his duty to read several letters from the noble Earl; and as he understood the noble Earl was labouring under illness, he thought it would not be courteous to bring on the case in his absence. But, on the part of Mr. Reece, he would even now say that he was ready to refer the matter to a court of inquiry, and to abide by its decision. Mr. Reece had been posted all over Piccadilly as having been dismissed for gross carelessness and negligence, and that to a medical man was nearly as bad as shooting him. He could not help thinking that too much despotic power was now placed in the hands of the Volunteer colonels. He expected that the Volunteer officers in the House would oppose his Motion; but if there had been a few more privates in the House, the result would have been different. Yet, he believed that Volunteer officers who divided against him would find themselves rather less popular with their men than they would otherwise be. ["Oh!"]. He was confirmed in this belief by the number of letters he every day received on this subject.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 108; Noes 21: Majority 87.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 22 and 23 agreed to.

Clause 24 (Power for Corps to make Rules, subject to Approval of Crown).

MR. HARVEY LEWIS

said, this clause gave the corps power to make rules, subject to the approval of the Crown; but the clause provided that the rules shall not have effect until the commanding officer "thinks fit" to transmit them to the Lord Lieutenant. He moved to leave out the words "thinks fit to," and insert "shall."

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, he thought the commanding officer ought to have a veto on the rules.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 25 (Vesting of Property of Corps in Commanding Officer ex officio) agreed to.

Clause 26 (Storehouses for Arms).

MR. HUMBERSTON

proposed at the end to add— It shall also be lawful for justices of the peace, municipal corporations, and trustees or commissioners for public or parochial purposes, out of the public funds at their disposal, to provide and furnish, and pay the rent for, any storehouse for arms, rifle range, drill ground, room, or other building used or required by any Volunteer Corps for storing arms and ammunition, rifle practice, or drill, or towards the construction or establishment of any such: Provided, That any order by justices be made by vote at their general Quarter Sessions, by any municipal corporation at some monthly or quarterly meeting of the Council, and by such trustees or commissioners at some meeting duly convened.

MR. HENLEY

objected to the Amendment, on the ground that it would have the effect of casting additional burden upon the county rates, which was a horse, in his opinion, sufficiently laden already. The case of the militia force was different, inasmuch as it was generally a stationary force, whereas the Volunteer force was scattered all over counties. If the Amendment were agreed to, there might be de- mands for the establishment of fifty little armouries in one large county, involving a very heavy charge upon the county rates.

LORD ELCHO

said, he did not think that such a provision was at all necessary, and he should recommend the hon. Gentleman not to press it. The fact that the provision was merely of an enabling character would in many cases give rise to discussions on the bench of magistrates, and would probably have the effect of making the Volunteer force unpopular. When the Commission inquired into the proposed grant of £1 per man, it was suggested that a portion of the money granted should be appropriated to rifle ranges required by the force. They should not try to get out of the country more than they felt themselves reasonably entitled to ask for.

SIR JOHN WALSH

concurred in the objections urged against the Amendment, but thought it was worthy of the consideration of the Government whether some charge out of the general taxation of the country might not be made for the proper custody and preservation of the arms of the Volunteers.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

begged to remind the Committee that the militia force was the old constitutional force of the country, which the Crown had power at any time to call out, but the Volunteer force was one over which the Government had no control.

COLONEL SYKES

also objected to the Amendment.

MR. HUMBERSTON

said, that in deference to what seemed the general opinion of the Committee, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Motion withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 27 to 47 agreed to, with verbal Amendments.

Clause 48 (Interpretation).

On Motion of the Marquess of HARTINGTON, words inserted, "The Term 'Volunteer' means a Non-commissioned Officer or Private belonging to a Volunteer Corps, exclusive of the Permanent Staff thereof."

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

New Clause added in Part V., "Acquisition of Land for Ranges," excepting the Isle of Man.

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON

said, that it was not intended to diminish the allowances of clerks of lieutenancy; but as a misapprehension existed on that subject, it had been deemed advisable to substitute the old schedule in Lord Herbert's Act for the one in the present Bill. On the Report he would bring up the Schedule proposed.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 152.]