MR. MONTAGUE SMITHsaid, he rose to call attention to the insufficient accommodation in the Courts of Law at Westminster and in the City of London. He hoped the Government would give serious attention to this subject, which was of considerable importance. When a Judge was obliged to suspend his sittings because the state of the court was dangerous to the health of those who had to attend in it, and when the business of the Queen's Bench was thus impeded, it was surely high time that a remedy should be provided for so great a scandal. The Government were bound to provide proper accommodation for the administration of justice. The present courts were, however, utterly unworthy of the country and totally unfit for the purposes they had to serve. They combined all the defects which a court could possibly exhibit, and were as objectionable on account of their want of space as on account of the absence of convenient arrangement. The Bar might, perhaps, become acclimatized to the bad atmosphere of these places; but some consideration should be given to the suitors, witnesses, jurors, and the general public, who were occasional visitors. Of the six or seven courts of Westminster, only two, the Queen's Bench and Exchequer, were in the least suitable for the transaction of business. The Common Pleas, in which a full third of the important law business of the country was conducted, was much too small, and extremely ill-ventilated. When there was a trial which attracted public attention, the court was most inconveniently crowded, and there was an utter want of that proper accommodation and that regard for the health of those who were engaged in the court, which ought to be exhibited in a tribunal of so much importance. The Court of Common Pleas might probably he borne with, but the Bail Court and the Court of Exchequer Chamber, which were now used for 606 purposes for which they were not originally intended, were utterly disgraceful. With the exception of some of the courts in the City of London, they were the worst he had ever seen. There was but one entrance, and the greatest difficulty was experienced in transacting the business with common decorum and decency. But the courts in the City of London were infinitely worse. In the City six courts were now required because each of the superior courts had two courts for the trial of causes. At Guildhall there were only two or at most three courts which were fit for the transaction of business. The Queen's Bench and the Common Pleas, although nothing to boast of, were large and well ventilated; but the others were the very reverse. There were two new courts, which seemed to have been constructed for the purpose of preventing business being satisfactorily done in them. They were modelled after the fashion of cucumber frames, being large square boxes with glass tops, and in hot weather it was impossible to remain in them without extreme danger to health. It was in one of these courts that Mr. Justice Mellor recently found himself unable to go on with the business. The occurrence was reported in The Times, and the report, appearing as it did in a paper read throughout Europe, was a disgrace to the country which permitted such a state of things to continue. It was as follows:—
The Lord Chief Justice, upon taking his seat to-day, said that he had received a note from Mr. Justice Mellor, to the effect that it was utterly impossible, with due regard to the health of the Judge, the bar, and the jurors, to continue the sitting of a Second Queen's Bench Court in what was called the south court of Guildhall. The atmosphere at this time of the year was most oppressive; and as there was no proper means of ventilation, long continuance in it was attended with most pernicious and injurious results. His Lordship added that Mr. Justice Mellor was about to leave for circuit, but, under these circumstances, he could not ask any other Judge of the Queen's Bench to incur the serious inconvenience from which his brother Mellor had suffered for several days. There would, therefore, be no Second Court of Queen's Bench for the remainder of these sittings.The consequence had been a great addition to the arrear of causes. But the report in The Times did not go far enough, for he believed that Mr. Justice Mellor complained also of the confined space of the court, and its inconvenience in every respect. On the following day the Recorder for the City held a sitting in the same court. He presumed the City authorities 607 acted on the principle that they might do what they liked with their own; but certainly the learned Recorder must have sat in an atmosphere extremely injurious to his health. The City authorities were scarcely to be blamed for this state of things, because it was only in recent years that two courts bad been required at Guildhall for each of the superior Courts, and he believed that the additional accommodation provided was intended to be only of a temporary character. Unfortunately, however, it had existed without change for a number of years, and, notwithstanding numerous complaints, no effort had been made to remedy the inconvenience. He had been speaking of the courts only as yet, but the accessories of the courts were miserably defective. Neither at Westminster nor in the City were there waiting-rooms or retiring-places for witnesses, many of whom were women; and all attending the courts had either to haunt the purlieus or to remain in neighbouring taverns until they were called. No attempt had been made to give the Bar any accommodation whatever. At Westminster there was no room where the Bar could have a library. In that respect Edinburgh and Dublin were far before London, and a much better state of things existed even in Liverpool and other provincial towns. He did not wish to throw blame on the present Government. Only a year ago, indeed, they endeavoured to provide a remedy by proposing the establishment of a Palace of Justice. It was to be regretted that their scheme was defeated by a hasty division; but he was bound to say, that although the hon. and learned Member for the Cambridge University (Mr. Selwyn) had the apparent honour of defeating it, he believed it received its death-wound from some unseen hand at the Treasury. He hoped the Government would either re-introduce that measure—and if they did, he believed the House would be ready to accept it—or bring forward one of a less comprehensive character; for if millions could be expended on fortifications, and if a large sum could be voted for the purchase of a building for a collection of stuffed animals, surely we could afford to provide Courts of Justice affording suitable accommodation for the suitors, the Bar, and the Judges.
§ MR. MALINSsaid, that bad as were the defects of the courts of law, they sank into insignificance compared with those of the courts of equity. By alterations made 608 during the last three or four years the courts of equity had been turned into nisi prius courts. The Chief Commissioner of Works, who had visited Lincoln's Inn, would know that a vast amount of the administrative business of the Court of Chancery was conducted in chambers not larger than the room behind the Speaker's chair, and which were utterly unfit for the transaction of any business whatever. Then the courts of equity themselves were in a worse state as regarded accommodation than even the courts of common law. There was no space for a jury-box, no place for the jury to retire to when they had to consult together, no room for the Bar and the solicitors, and the room into which the Judge had to retire was about eight feet square. Two of the Vice Chancellors sat in sheds that were erected twenty years ago, when the judicial staff was increased. There ought to be one great central building, where justice in all its branches could be duly and decorously administered, instead of having the courts scattered, as was now the case, in different parts of the town. The courts of equity might be kept together at Lincoln's Inn for an outlay of about £100,000 only. If that were carried out, he would be glad to support the scheme for placing all the courts of law under one roof between Lincoln's Inn and the Temple. He would be happy to concur in that or in any other situation which the Government might fix upon in which to provide suitable courts with accommodation for the Judges, the Bar, the solicitors, the suitors, the jury, and the witnesses; so that there might be some approach made to the proper and decent administration of justice. When the Government contemplated making an expenditure at Kensington or elsewhere, there seemed to be no lack of means for the purpose; and the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought not to refuse to provide the funds for an improvement so important and so imperatively called for as the present. He thought that £1,000,000 would suffice for the whole of the Courts of Law and Equity, the interest upon which at 3 per cent would be £30,000. The suitors, he was sure, would be gladly taxed to pay that amount of interest; although, as the Solicitor General knew, the means already existed for defraying it. He appealed, therefore, to the Government to take the necessary steps without delay for securing an object which ought to be the first concern of a civilized State.
§ MR COLLIERthought the hon. and 609 learned Member for Truro (Mr. M. Smith) deserved the thanks of the profession and the public for calling attention to what had long been a crying grievance. The complaints regarding the defective accommodation in Westminster Hall were very old, and Lord Erskine had once called the Court of Common Pleas "a hole in the wall." There had been a vast increase of judicial business of late years, owing to a variety of causes, and the courts of law were entirely blocked up: there was a great delay in the hearing of cases, and if a case was entered in the Court of Queen's Bench, the chances were that it would not be disposed of for twelve months. Indeed, it was a question with him whether the existing judicial strength was sufficient for the transaction of all the business which now came before the courts. He regretted that the comprehensive scheme of the Lord Chancellor, for erecting one large building in which all the courts should be concentrated, had not been successful. He was glad to hear that there would be no further opposition from Lincoln's Inn if that scheme were again brought forward.
MR. WHITE SIDEsaid, he would point to the Probate Court recently erected in Ireland as an instance of bad taste and inconvenient arrangement. He wished, before the Solicitor General spoke on this subject, to put to him two questions—a particular question and a general one. The particular question related to the assimilation of the law in the two kingdoms. A person had lately been tried in Ireland for sending a threatening letter. There they might establish the proof of writing by comparison, but in England that law was made to apply only to civil cases; in Ireland it applied to both civil and criminal cases. He wished, therefore, to ask the Solicitor General which was the best law; and whether, as there were two separate laws of evidence, the one in civil the other in criminal cases, that distinction should prevail. The other question he had to put was general. Elsewhere something was being done in the consolidation and assimilation of the statute law; he wished to know if anything was to be done in that respect for Ireland.
THE SOLICITOR GENERALobserved, that at that late period of the Session it would of course be impossible for the Government to introduce any measure on the subject of the Law Courts with any chance of carrying it. He had, however, 610 heard with great interest and satisfaction the observations made by so many of his hon. and learned Friends relative to the deplorable condition of the courts compared with those of any other civilized country. He owned, if those eloquent statements from the other side had been made last year, they might have been attended with considerable effect:—but the measure introduced by the Government, which was now described as an excellent comprehensive measure, was lost by a majority of one, and his hon. and learned Friend for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) was that individual. He did not mean to say what would be the best course for the Government to take with the uncertainty that might still prevail as to the views of Lincoln's Inn, and of other Members sitting on the same side of the House with his hon. Friend the Member for Walling-ford. Undoubtedly the evil complained of required a remedy; but he should not so much regret the temporary continuance of the miserable state of things described as an attempt to meet it by incomplete or inadequate measures. The country had a real and important interest in providing properly for the administration of justice; and we had actually got the money in hand. Not one farthing need be voted by the House. There was every reason to believe that the funds in the Court of Chancery which might be legitimately used for this purpose would be adequate for the whole expense of the purchase of ground and buildings. He hoped this discussion would not be without fruit; but he certainly did not admit that the Government in 1863 was to blame for the continuance of the inconvenience complained of. With reference to the questions put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside), he had to state that the rule of evidence ought to be the same in criminal as in civil matters, and before long he hoped the anomaly would be removed. With regard to the general consolidation of the Irish statutes, that was a very large undertaking, as to which he could give no promise at present. In England the work of expurgation and reduction was going on; when that was done, other undertakings might follow. He believed that arrangements were actually in progress for dealing with the Irish statutes in the same manner and to the same extent as had been done with the English statutes.
MR. LYGONprotested against its being 611 supposed that there were not serious objections to the great and comprehensive scheme which had been referred to. In his opinion it was unnecessary and extravagant. The better plan would be to mate use of existing accommodation, and add to it anything which might be needed. He was, however, content to leave the matter upon the Treasury Minute of 1861, which showed that it was probable that according to the scheme proposed a large charge would fall upon the public.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the Treasury Minute referred to was not a statement of the outlay which the scheme must necessarily involve, but a maximum estimate of the sum which it might cost. Of late years the Treasury, warned by what had occurred with regard to public buildings, more especially with regard to the Palace of Westminster, had adopted the course of submitting to the House only maximum estimates—estimates of the highest sum which the works referred to could possibly cost. Unfortunately, hon. Members had, in two or three cases, assumed that these were minimum estimates, which would be sure to be exceeded, and thus a certain amount of delusion had been produced. With respect to the building of new courts, the Government had been waiting for the concurrence of the House, and after the encouragement which they had received in the course of this debate they would no doubt be ready to discharge the duty to which the hon. and learned Member opposite had directed their attention.
§ MR. O'HAGAN (Attorney General for Ireland)said, that the consolidation of the Irish Statutes was actually in progress, and that two gentlemen of capacity and experience were engaged under his direction in doing for the statutes of Ireland what was now being done for those of England, and he had no doubt that their work would be efficiently and successfully performed.
§ MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCK, as a Member of the Committee which examined the scheme for the construction of the courts of justice, said, that the opinion of that Committee was that the estimate was not a maximum but a minimum one, and that the building could not be erected simply out of the Suitors' Fund. The fact was that it was the case of "the Brompton boilers" and Captain Fowke over again. It was a pet scheme of the present Lord Chancellor, then Attorney General, who 612 had his pet architect, Mr. Abraham. Mr. Abraham himself was forced to admit, that if the proposition of Lincoln's Inn were accepted, one half the expense would be saved.
§ Question put, and agreed to.