HC Deb 17 February 1862 vol 165 cc404-13
SIR GEORGE LEWIS

In the early part of this evening, before Mr. Speaker left the chair, the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), asked me a very pertinent question, Whether the charge covered by the first vote in the Estimate I have now the honour to propose was limited to the North American provinces, or applied generally to the army. The reply I have to make is, that with respect to this and the remaining votes in the Supplementary Estimate the charges are for extraordinary expenses incurred in consequence of reinforcements which have been lately sent out to the North American provinces, and which would not have been incurred if those reinforcements had not been sent out. The whole of the Supplementary Estimate is to be attributed to that cause exclusively, and I fear there will be some extraordinary charges which will not come in course of payment before the first of April next, and for which it will be necessary to make provision in the general Army Estimates for the year. I mention this, as the sums may not be inconsiderable. I therefore wish to guard against the inference which the remarks of my hon. Friend might suggest, that the entire cost of the reinforcements would be covered by this Supplementary Estimate. I will state as briefly as I can to the Committee the principal items of which the Estimate consists. I will preface my explanations by remarking that the number of men was in excess of the Vote during the earlier months of the year, and therefore it became necessary for the department to take steps for reducing it, in order that the number should be short of the Vote in the latter part of the year, and in that manner that a balance might be established. Accordingly, the recruiting of men was stopped in the summer, and the number was allowed to fall below the establishment. But when the alarm of a rupture with the United States arose, the Government thought it right to recommence recruiting in order to increase the battalions in North America by 200 rank and file each, so as to bring them up to a war establishment. However, as soon as we received the pleasing intelligence that the Government of the United States had determined to give up the four men, the suspension of the recruiting was resumed, only 1,393 men having been enlisted in the mean time. I think that the course taken by the Government must satisfy the Committee that they had not contemplated any war; that they did not follow any warlike policy, and that the preparations which they felt obliged to make in consequence of unexpected intelligence were not continued after it became known that there was no danger of hostilities. The whole of the extraordinary sums now asked are owing to provisions made for an emergency. There is a considerable charge for the medical staff. When it seemed likely that the militia in Canada would be called upon to make great exertions in assisting to defend that colony, we thought it right to send out officers to train them, and also a medical staff, who would be ready for immediate service. From all we had heard, there was a confident anticipation that the North American provinces would exert themselves to the utmost for their own defence, and in order to meet the assistance which they were to receive from the mother country. In reference to some remarks which have been made this evening, I would say that the reinforcements sent out were strictly of a defensive character. If it so happened that England had no colonies beyond the Atlantic, undoubtedly she would not have moved a single soldier. The reinforcements sent out were for the defence of our own colonies, and not for an aggressive purpose. In the position in which Canada and the other provinces stand with respect to us, we manage their foreign relations. Any offence given to us naturally affects them; and we should be justly obnoxious to the charge of pusillanimity and of being unmindful of the interests confided to our care if, when the people of Canada were threatened with invasion in consequence of an insult to our flag, we had shown any remissness in giving them that assistance which, undoubtedly, was their right, inasmuch as the quarrel was not theirs, but ours, and Canada was only incidentally involved in it. I quite agree with the opinion expressed this evening, that the insult offered to our flag was an unhappy accident; but on the part of the officer in command of the American ship, it was premeditated. He himself informed his countrymen that he made the seizure in consequence of his studies of international law. Therefore, it was a deliberate insult so far as he was concerned; but as regards the United States Government it was unintentional and accidental. Every one must have seen from the first that it was utterly impossible that any instructions could have been sent to Captain Wilkes. He never pretended that he had any, and Mr. Seward gave the most positive assurance to this Government, through Mr. Adams, that the act was entirely without the authority of the American Government. But, though so far an accident, still, on the part of an officer of the United States Government, it was a deliberate affront to our flag. In consequence of that affront our North American provinces were entitled to our assistance, and I think we should have shown an utter absence of all sense of honour and high feeling if, having drawn the people of Canada and New Brunswick into our quarrel, we had left them to extricate themselves from it as best they might. I think we were not only justified in sending these reinforcements, but that every obligation of national honour made it necessary to defend their frontier. The Government took this step in the most efficacious manner that seemed possible, but certainly under a sense of great difficulty in consequence of the short notice and of the absence on our part of any idea of a rupture with the United States, because I can give the Committee the most positive assurance that the news of this seizure came quite suddenly on the Government, and that we had no expectation of any rupture with the United States. The news came, too, at a time when the communications between this country and North America are most difficult, the navigation is most perilous, and the weather is very inclement in Canada. However, as the Committee is aware, those difficulties have been overcome without the loss of a single life, as far as we are aware of. The Committee will agree with me that the Government had no option as to the course which they were called on to take. Though I shall move the Votes separately, it may be convenient that I should now explain a few of the more important items. In Vote No. 3 there is a considerable charge for the purchase of horses. Some of those were for six batteries of Royal Artillery—94 horses to each battery, making a total of 564 horses. Only 180 were sent out from England, so that the rest had to be provided in Canada. Other horses were required for two battalions of the Military Train, which were sent to facilitate the transport of the stores. The entire number of horses was 716, which, at an estimated cost of £35 each, give a gross charge of £25,060. It is a considerable amount, but the money is not wasted. There are then items for medicine and for expenses rendered necessary in consequence of the cold to which men travelling through Canada at this season of the year are exposed. There is an item which was incurred owing to the additional hands put on when the troops were ordered to embark, in order to send out a supply of muskets for the militia in Canada. One of the principal items is £178,000 for the purchase of warm and extra clothing for the troops in British North America. It was thought necessary to incur considerable expense in order to provide warm clothing for men who had to serve in that most inclement climate. Those hon. Gentlemen who have been in North America, or who have read accounts of that climate, will be of opinion that the expense incurred for the purpose of providing warm clothing for the troops, although not inconsiderable, was a necessary precaution for the health and comfort of the men. The expense for each private soldier amounts to £2 17s. 2d., but that includes a complete provision of all that was required. There was one article that was not used by any of our regiments, and which was not in store in this country—the article of long boots. The French Government, having been informed of our difficulty, undertook the supply of 1,500 boots; which came over in forty eight hours from Paris, and at a cost for which they could scarcely have been obtained from our contractors. I am happy to mention this as a proof of the friendly disposition of the French Government. There has been a large issue of provisions, amounting to £126,900, but that is so considerable a supply as to diminish the Estimate that I shall have afterwards to lay upon the table by about £50,000. The stores purchased on this occasion will be useful to a great extent, and, although this is an extraordinary expenditure, yet the stores will be available hereafter. One of the principal items of warlike stores is for gunpowder. The purchase of saltpetre amounts to £20,000, and various other stores of this kind amount to £170,000. If the Committee wish, I will give them all the details—["No!"]—but I may briefly state that ample provision was made for every contingency, and that the comfort, convenience, and health of the soldiers were fully provided for. Every arrangement was made for conducting the war in an effective manner, if war had unfortunately broken out, and for making our troops as efficient as possible. I believe, too, that no waste was incurred, and that great care was taken by the efficient officers of the War Department to observe economy, even when a great pressure was put; upon them to send out the men as soon as possible. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving a Vote for £11,785 for pay and allowances.

(4.) £11,785, Land Forces, beyond Ordinary and Supplementary Grants.

MR. ADDERLEY

said, that the vote having arisen from expenses connected with the defence of our North American colonies, it would be well for the Committee to know what their prospects were to be for the time to come. It was quite true that it would have been an act of pusillanimity not to send out troops for the defence of the colonists, as they had been drawn into the dispute without having been consulted; but the quarrels that affected the empire, affected all its dependencies, and it was extraordinary if those who shared nine-tenths of the advantages were spared the burdens of the expenditure of the empire. He did not blame the Government for what had been done, nor did he sympathize in the least with the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright), who, as the noble Vicount had said, stood absolutely alone in the sentiments he had expressed. Every other hon. Member in the House must give the noble Viscount credit for the promptitude, vigour, and success with which he had averted war by sending succour to Canada. When, however, it was truly said that Canada was our weak point, he could not help asking himself the reason why Canada was in so defenceless a state as it undoubtedly was at the commencement of the dispute. He agreed that it was a matter of good fortune that the noble Viscount succeeded in averting war and in saving Canada. But he would ask the noble Lord what would have happened if England had been engaged at that moment in defending her own shores, and if the interests of France had not concurred with ours, but had been adverse to our own? Canada would not have been able or ready to hold her own, even for a time, while England would have been seeking in every quarter for assist- ance. That might be good fortune, but it was not good statesmanship, and he wished to ask whether we were to trust in future to good luck for the defence of the colony, and to leave it the next time in a state so defenceless that unless England had her hands free, and was able to send out troops, Canada must be lost to this country. He by no means sympathized with the opinions recently expressed by Professor Goldwin Smith as to the value of our colonies. Socially, commercially, and imperially, they were an absolute necessity to an island-country like this, and it was because he valued such a colony as Canada in so high a degree that he thought her defence ought not to be left to chance. Still he did not understand why we should consider the defence of the whole empire as belonging to ourselves so exclusively that we should wholly undertake it, and deprive the rest of the empire in common with ourselves of the natural privilege and effort of freedom, or why, from some imperial pride and vanity, we should keep our colonies in a helpless state and prevent them from putting forth their own resources. The noble Viscount had published the fact of his good fortune, and the vigour with which the Imperial Government had come to colonial aid, but he had also published to the world that England was the only portion of the British dominions that was active and ready to fight, and that all the rest of the British Empire was passive and to be fought for. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would tell the Committee a little more about the Canadian militia, and whether the Canadians would be expected in future to tax themselves somewhat more as Englishmen were taxing themselves at home for their security. There were now 18,000 British troops in the North American provinces, and he presumed they were to be kept there for several years for the purpose of enabling the North American colonies to form an army on the same basis. If that were the case, were the colonists going to pay anything towards the expenses of the troops and the stores? Would they pay for the medical stores sent out for their prospective militia? [Sir George Lewis: "Medical Officers have been sent out."] There were items in the expenditure for hospital and other stores besides arms and equipment of every kind, and the colonists for whose benefit they were sent out might fairly be expected to contribute towards such expenses. He did not think by ask- ing them to take their fair share in the expenses of an empire like this we should be depreciating the value of the connection. He believed they knew exactly how to value in pounds, shillings, and pence the present connection with this country; but he firmly believed that they would put a greater and more permanent value upon the natural relations which should prevail.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

The question which the right hon. Gentleman has raised is not necessarily involved in the discussion of this Estimate, which is to meet an extraordinary charge in consequence of reinforcements sent out under the special circumstances of this case. Now, it may have been very wrong that our predecessors had not adopted the policy which the right hon. Gentleman recommends, and had not required that the colonies should make a large contribution towards the expenses of their own military and naval defence; but, inasmuch as that provision had not been made, Her Majesty's Government could deal with the circumstances only as they existed, and I think it must be seen that if we did not send out this force, the frontier of British North America would have remained undefended. I cannot admit, therefore, that this question has any direct bearing on the Vote. At the same time, the right hon. Gentleman has taken a perfectly fair and proper course in calling attention to an important principle of policy which is involved in the case before us. Now, during the American war the Parliament of this country passed an Act by which it declared that it was illegal to tax the colonies. I am afraid that it would be very difficult to pass an Act declaring it illegal for the colonies to tax us. The system under which the military and naval defence of Canada rests on us virtually amounts to a tax imposed on the mother country for the benefit of the colonies; but, inasmuch as the colonies are dependencies, as we allow them no option with regard to our foreign relations, but make them follow in our wake, compel them to share our fortunes, and involve them in our wars, it is not unnatural on the part of the colonies to expect that a very large portion of the expense of their naval and military defence should be defrayed by the mother country. It is an unquestionable fact that this has been the case, with very slight exceptions, up to the present time; and it is a matter for the consideration of the House whether a change in this established policy should be effected. There was a Committee appointed last Session which went into this subject very fully, and made an interesting report. The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. A. Mills) has given notice of a Motion founded on the report of that Committee, and it is his intention to move a Resolution shortly in which the whole of that policy will be brought before the House. I think it would be better to reserve ourselves until that Motion is before us, rather than now go into a somewhat desultory discussion of that large question, which is not confined to Canada, but extends to the colonies in general. As I am on the case of Canada, I will point out circumstances which I think will not unnaturally weigh with a Canadian. He would remember that the frontier line between Canada and the British Provinces of North America on the one hand and the United States on the other, was some years ago in contest, and it was settled by negotiation, conducted by a Plenipotentiary from this country. Many people thought the line which he obtained between the United States and those provinces was unfavourable to the provinces, and that he gave up rights which he might have retained. Well, I am not saying that the treaty was not for the interests of the empire, but I think it is not an unnatural thing that the Canadian should say, "If you take the negotiating of our frontier out of our hands, and bring the Americans close upon oar river; if you even concede some portions of our territory"—for that, I believe, was a fact—" it is fair you should do something to help us when we are threatened with a war from that quarter." I think when we discuss those matters we ought to put ourselves in the position of our colonists, who do not take the same view as many hon. Gentlemen in this House are inclined to take. With respect to the time during which the 18,000 men will be maintained in Canada, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to give him or the Committee any pledge with respect to it. I can only say that it is certainly not in the contemplation of the Government to maintain for any time like five years the increased force which was required only by a temporary exigency, and which was meant to meet a peculiar occasion. I do not contemplate the necessity of keeping the present amount of force for a long time in Canada, but how long it may be necessary to maintain it there is a matter upon which I am not now able to give a very distinct pledge. With regard to the Militia, it is certainly true that both in Canada and New Brunswick it has not been very effective, and that there has been a neglect in calling them out and training them; but that subject has been brought under the attention of the Governors by the Colonial Department, and they have exerted themselves very much, and I am bound to say that the population has responded with great spirit and readiness, for they have shown the utmost alacrity in making pecuniary sacrifices for their own defence. I think it would be impossible for me to express in too strong terms the excellent spirit which the entire population of the North American Provinces have shown on this occasion. I believe they will take measures for improving the system of their Militia; but the Committee must bear in mind that the North American Provinces naturally imitate the example of their neighbours in the United States, who never kept up any large standing army, as we see by the measures which they are forced to have recourse to. They are driven to very extraordinary measures in order to raise an army, and, of course, labour under a great difficulty in the absence of trained officers, or of any military system, and hence they are forced to supply by lavish expenditure the defect of a regular trained army.

SIR HARRY VERNEY

said, that great praise was due to the officers and soldiers for the alacrity and energy with which, on so short a notice, they had proceeded to the scene of duty. Heavy loss, he feared, would be entailed upon many of them in consequence of the failure of the transports Victoria and Adelaide, but he hoped that whatever pecuniary loss the troops had really suffered would be supplied by the Government.

COLONEL DUNNE

observed, that the pay for the general staff was put down at £2,260, which appeared to him far under the necessary sum to pay the general staff officers of an army consisting of 15,000 men.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he believed the sum represented the excess of the pay for the current year of the staff officers sent to the North American station beyond the pay voted in the ordinary Estimates.

Vote agreed to, as were also the following:—

(5.) £76,510, Miscellaneous Expenses.

(6.) £11,000, Manufacturing Departments, &c.

(7.) £27,275, Wages.

(8.) £178,500, Clothing, &c.

(9.) £126,900. Provisions, &c.

(10.) £170,077, Warlike Stores.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he did not see any Vote in the Estimates for the purpose of fortifications. He knew the disgraceful State of the fortifications in British North America, and he was quite certain that it would be necessary to go to considerable expense in repairing them. There was in the War Office an able report by General Eyre on the subject, and he should like to know the intentions of the Government in respect to the matter.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

remarked, that the subject just touched on was one of considerable importance. He had read the report alluded to, and acknowledged that it was a comprehensive and able document; but it now had merely historical interest, for it bore date as long back as 1826. [Colonel DUNNE intimated that there was a more recent Report.] He had not seen a more recent Report; but, if there were one, it no doubt was made before the introduction of railways, which had almost entirely changed the aspect of the defences in Canada. The subject naturally occupied the attention of the Government, and he believed that the Governor was instructed to cause an inquiry to be made by some of the Engineer officers now sent over into the defences of Canada, and the Government would thus have in their possession a complete account of the existing condition of those defences.

Vote agreed to, as was also

(11.) £7,362, Barracks.

House resumed.