§ MR. MAGUIREsaid, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he had made inquiry in respect to the alleged attempts on the part of certain persons in Skull and Skibbereen to stir up a spirit of discontent amongst the people against the landlords; and if he could say on what occasion the attempts were made, and by whom and in what manner?
§ SIR ROBERT PEELSir, the hon. Gentleman has not given notice of the exact terms of the Question that he intended to ask, but I have no objection to answer it as far as I am able. No doubt, the hon. Gentleman has asked the question with a view of endeavouring to throw doubts on the accuracy of a statement which I made the other night. In the zeal which he manifests for the interests of the landlords and tenants of Ireland he wishes to know the authority from which I derived the information which formed the substance of my reply to his own criticisms. It would take some time to read the letters in my possession; but if the House would permit me, I could answer the question fully. I am quite sure the House, and particu- 268 larly Irish Gentlemen in the House, have accepted the statements I made as emanating, on my part, from the most loyal desire to state what really was the condition and the wants of the poorer classes in Ireland. It will be quite evident that I can have no wish and no desire whatever to conceal or exaggerate the real condition of those classes. Indeed, I should be really ashamed to be a party to any appearance even of such concealment; and, if even now, after anxiously considering the matter, I thought or had reason to believe that in any way I had been misled or was mistaken, I would, at once, frankly acknowledge it, and do my best to correct the erroneous impression which I had been the instrument of creating. But I am bound to say that the statement which I made the other night, and which the hon. Gentleman impugns, is literally correct. I do not wish to enter into a discussion of the relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland, but I can assure him, and I believe I speak what every Irish Member in the House at this moment will endorse, that it is an unsatisfactory thing that we should have a repetition of the hon. Gentleman dragging before the public and the House of Commons the purely imaginary sufferings of the majority of the people of Ireland.
§ MR. MAGUIREI rise to order. I beg leave to state that I never alluded to sufferings either imaginary or real. I asked a certain question in reference to a certain district, and I now request an answer.
§ MR. SPEAKERThat is not rising to order.
§ SIR ROBERT PEELIf I answer the question, I am bound to express an opinion as to the subject to which particular reference is made. The hon. Gentleman evidently assumes by the notice he has given that what I stated in reference to the relative positions of the landlords and tenants in Ireland was not true. He referred to the district of Kanturk. I have received a letter this morning from Kanturk, which, if the House will permit me, I will read, because it is a complete refutation of the—I may almost say—calumnies on the state and condition of the country.
§ MR. MAGUIRESir, I again rise to order. I beg to ask whether, inasmuch as new matter has been introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, I shall be entitled to reply?
§ MR. SPEAKERThe whole course of this proceeding is verging on irregularity. The notice of the hon. Member as it stands on the paper would have been irregular, for it is founded on a reference to a past debate. I pointed out that to the hon. Member, who at once altered the form of his Question to meet the rules of the House. I must now, inform the right hon. Gentleman that in his reply it will be his duty to avoid all reference to what has taken place in this House on a past occasion, and suggest that he should be as concise in his answer as justice to the subject-matter will permit
§ SIR ROBERT PEELI will make it as concise as possible. The hon. Gentleman asked me for a specific reply as to the districts of Skull and Skibbereen. I would observe that I not only referred to these two districts, but also to the Roman Catholic diocese of Tuam. If the House will permit me. I will read a letter I have received from Kanturk this morning. The writer says—
Sir,—I think it only right your hands should be strengthened"—This is from an ex officio guardian of the Kanturk Union. [Mr. SCULLY: Name.] I decline to name the writer. The House, I suppose, will take my word that the letter is authentic.Sir,—I think it only right your hands should be strengthened with reliable information while dealing with professional agitators who are trying to make political capital out of the present partial distress in certain parts of Ireland. The accuracy of Mr. Maguire's statements as to Kanturk Union will be estimated by the following facts: The workhouse accommodation—
§ MR. SPEAKERTo read a document commenting on debates in this House, and referring to a Member by name, is irregular.
§ SIR ROBERT PEEL, continuing to read—
The workhouse accommodation there is fixed by sealed order for 1,111 persons. On the 1st of February there were only 579 paupers therein, of whom 199 were in hospital, and 98 children under five years of age. Yesterday the numbers were reduced to 553. These numbers are really not extravagantly high, as the union is very large, contains 104,000 acres, is poor, remote, for a great part mountain, with a small resident proprietary, and contains several villages in addition to the chief town of Kanturk. In 1850 and 1851 there were about 5,000 in the workhouse and its several auxiliaries, and 24,000 receiving out-door relief.The hon. Gentleman has asked me whe- 270 ther I have received any information with reference to the unions of Skull and Skibbereen, and parts of the diocese of Tuam. If the House will permit me, I would also read a letter I have received with reference to what has taken place in that far district of Ireland, and which, I feel sure, will confirm what I stated was the real state of things there. I said there was an attempt unfortunately to set the tenants against their landlords. In confirmation of what I then stated, I must ask the permission of the House to read this one letter. I think it will convince the House that I was thoroughly justified in the statement I made the other evening.There was a meeting held at Castletown, Berehaven, with regard to the suffering there. A gentleman got up and stated that the greatest distress prevailed in that part of Ireland, worse than in 1847. Another gentleman got up at a very excited meeting and made use of these extraordinary expressions. He said:—' You have heard that property has its claims and duties as well as its rights, but the landlords of Ireland have ever been the curse of Ireland. They have taken particular care of their rights, while they have shamefully neglected their duties, retiring at night to rest to dream how they may harass and oppress the unfortunate people whose lives are in their keeping, and add a shilling or two to each pound of their rent-roll.'Is not that a proof of an attempt to set the tenants against their landlords? I shall not now enter more fully into the matter, as the hon. Gentleman has to-night given notice that he will bring forward the whole question, but I do venture to say that when that debate comes on, the statements I have made will be corroborated by hon. Gentlemen in this House who are conversant with the real state of the case. For myself, I shall certainly not hesitate to express my opinion upon that subject, in spite of the attacks and the insults which for the last three months have been heaped upon me by interested and dissatisfied agitators.