LEAVE. (Hansard, 15 March 1861)

§ COLONEL FRENCH
moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Laws regulating Grand Jury Presentments in Ireland. The hon. and gallant Member said the subject had undergone very full discussion on that night week, and the attention of the House had been called at considerable length to what appeared to be the defects in the existing system of Grand Jury Laws in Ireland. Now, he did not deny that there were certain objection 2131 which were of a tenable character, and that amendments might, in some particulars, be introduced with advantage. But the grand jury system, as a whole, had been very much, and, as he thought, unjustly decried in the course of that debate. His object, therefore, in asking for leave to introduce the present Bill was to afford an opportunity of calmly considering the present state of the law, with a view to the introduction of amendments where they appeared to be required. A great objection which had been urged by the hon. and learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Butt) was, that it was a system of taxation without representation. But he hoped to show the House, not alone that all taxation must originate with the cesspayers, but that every step was carefully guarded by law to prevent expenditure from being incurred, except where it was imperatively required by the circumstances of the district. In the first place, no person could make application for the repair of a road, or for any new work, in any barony, unless he was himself a cesspayer in that barony; and the application was further required to proceed from two persons. The most extensive publicity was insured, for, in the first place, notice of what the presentment was to be—what road was to be repaired, or the work to be performed, should be served on the secretary to the grand jury, on the county surveyor, and also on the clerk of sessions in the district where the greater part of the work was to be performed. Copies of such notice to be posted on the churches, chapels, and police barracks in the district. Before any notice could be taken of the application it must be proved to the satisfaction of the cesspayers and the justices that these notices had been served. These cesspayers before whom, conjointly with the justices, application for power to execute these works was to be made, consisted of a certain number—not less than five and not more than twelve—selected by the grand jury from among the highest rated. These cesspayers were influenced in a double manner: they had a material interest in the improvement of the roads for the conveyance of their produce to market, and they were likewise interested in seeing that the work proposed was executed as economically as possible, as the expense of the work was to be borne by themselves. In arriving at a conclusion they had the professional assistance of the county surveyor, who was in attendance 2132 to answer any questions as to the condition of the roads—ascertained by actual inspection—as to the quantity of material required for the repair, and generally to give his opinion whether the application was one that ought or ought not to be entertained. Upon him, likewise, devolved the duty of seeing that proper plans and specifications were prepared. In case the application received the approval of a majority of the magistrates and cesspayers, public advertisement for tenders was made, and the lowest offer was of necessity taken, provided the contractor found security which could be approved of. These were not the only safeguards. After all these steps had been taken, a schedule of presentments had to be laid before the grand jury, which was composed of the chief persons in their respective districts, who met in open court, where the county surveyor was again in attendance to give his professional assistance. The grand jury had not the power of originating taxation; but they could impose a veto upon it whenever a proper case was made out. In the event of any person being discontented, either with the decision of the magistrates and cesspayers, in the first instance, or with that of the grand jury in the second, without incurring any expense, he had a double power of appeal. In the first place, it was competent for him to apply to the Judge before whom the presentments were laid to be fiated, and to obtain his opinion as to their legality; and in the next, if he doubted the utility of a particular presentment, he might enter a traverse, and from the jurors who were in attendance on criminal business a jury would be impanelled, and their opinion obtained on the particular question, without any expense being incurred. He did not think it possible for any other system to be surrounded with so many guards to prevent abuse. It had now been at work in Ireland for about a century, and everybody had derived from it the greatest advantage. If the presentment sought for was for a new work it had to come twice before the baronial sessions, and twice before the grand jury. The roads in Ireland were maintained for the sum of £480,000, and there was not one shilling due by the counties—whilst in England, 26,000 miles of road were bankrupt for £3,000,000 sterling—£3,000^000 were likewise levied in England for private roads, which in numberless cases were admittedly in a very bad state; whilst in Ireland the private roads were as good as 2133 the public. In England this tax was levied by the magistrates in quarter sessions, without any associated cess-payers. To show the economical working of the system, he might mention that the preliminary expenses of any work brought before an Irish grand jury did not exceed 50s. or 60s., whereas in England the costs attendant on obtaining a private Act of Parliament to make a new road were not less than £600 or £700. The objections to the system, as well as he had been able to gather them from the speeches of the, hon. and learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Butt), and the noble Lord the Member for Marylebone (Lord Fermoy), were three-fold. The first was, that the Parliamentary requirement—that a grand juror should be called to represent each barony in a county—could be evaded by the high sheriff, who had only to call a person whom he knew would not answer to his name. He proposed to remedy that defect by making it incumbent on the sheriff to call another gentleman from the same barony in case the first did not answer. Another objection was, that magistrates came from distant parts of the county, not having property in the particular barony where the sessions were held, and swamped the local cesspayers. This objection he proposed to remove by enacting that no magistrate, not resident in the barony, nor having a fee simple or freehold qualification of £200 a year should vote in the particular instance alluded to. The third, and by far the most important, objection was, that cesspayers were nominated by the grand jury in place of being elected, and that thus there was a system of taxation without representation. The remedy which he proposed in this case was the same which had been advocated in a Bill introduced by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kerry (Colonel Herbert), when Chief Secretary for Ireland. He proposed that the grand juries should retain the power they at present possessed of declaring the number of associated cesspayers, and that the individuals should be elected by all persons rated from property of the annual value of eight pounds. In this way the legislative institutions which were required would be secured without difficulty. He thought he was not asking too much in requiring under his Bill that imperative presentments, by which he meant the expenditure for lunatic asylums under the Board of Works and in connection with the Post Office 2134 &c., should not be sent down to the grand (juries in the middle of their fiscal business, but should be put forward five clear: days before the county at large sessions, in order that they might be fairly considered and included in the printed schedule. There was an item which he considered totally unnecessary, but which was at present compulsory—namely, that for auditing the treasurer's accounts. He believed this might be omitted with safety and advantage. Such were the leading features of the Bill which he now begged permission to introduce; and from the encouragement to private Members, thrown out a few nights since by the Government, he hoped their assistance might be given in passing it into law.

§ LORD FERMOY
was unable to understand the exact principles of the Bill which his hon. and gallant Friend proposed to bring in. It seemed as if it ought, in his eyes, to be altogether unnecessary to amend the grand jury system, after the very elaborate defence of their action and constitution which the House had just listened to. He did not believe that a subject so important ought to be left in the hands of private Members. On a former evening his right hon. Friend, the Chief Secretary for Ireland, made a suggestion to private Members to bring in Bills on this question; they had now the fruits of that appeal, and he could not say much in their favour. It was a subject of all others which the Government ought to deal with, and which they only could deal with efficiently. Everybody but those directly interested denied that the grand jury system required to see a reform. The only persons who attempted to stand up in defence of the system were grand jurors themselves—the body of all others in whom the country on fiscal questions had entirely lost confidence. The question was one involving a million of taxation levied on the poor ratepayers of Ireland. Even the thick and thin advocates of grand juries, like his hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon, could not deny that blemishes existed; and it was therefore peculiarly a question with which the Executive Government should deal on its own responsibility.

§ MR. BUTT
thought it scarcely fair to a question of such great magnitude, that an attempt should be made to discuss it at such an advanced hour. On the suggestion thrown out by the Chief Secretary, the other night, he had himself given no- 2135 tice of a Bill on the subject, but finding it utterly impossible to do justice to it at such a time of night, he had postponed it till an evening when the state of the paper led him to hope for a more favourable opportunity. Although he did not hope to be able to effect that extensive change which he desired to see in the grand jury system, he felt that he was bound not to shrink from the responsibility cast upon him by the Chief Secretary for Ireland. There were questions on which legislation was admittedly required, that might be left to the discretion and responsibility of the Government; but, in the present instance he protested against blame being thrown on the right hon. Gentleman for declining to bring in a Bill.

§ MR. CARDWELL
said, it would be impossible, at such an hour, to renew the discussion on the financial Government of Ireland, All he wished to say on that occasion was, that in the history of this question, both in England and Ireland, the measures brought before the House had been usually in the hands of private Members, although, he was sorry to add that neither in the hands of private Members nor of the Government had that satisfactory progress been made which the advocates of alteration desired. A Bill was now proposed by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Roscommon, which he understood to contain some of the principal changes recommended by the Committee which reported in 1842. When that Bill was printed and in the hands of the House, they would be able to see whether it deserved a second reading. Other changes were contemplated in the measure promised by the hon. and learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Butt); and the House, when it had both these schemes before them, would be better able to decide on their respective merits.