§ Order for Committee read.
§ House in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ Clause 9 (Parochial Schoolmasters not to be required to sign Confession of Faith or Formula, but to make a Declaration and to undertake to conform to the Shorter Catechism).
§ MR. HADFIELDobjected to the test proposed in the clause, and said that he would take the sense of the Committee upon that proposition. The paltry sum of £35 a year which was paid to these persons ought not to be made the means of violating the principles of civil and religious liberty—the very weakness of such persons ought to be a protection against such legislation. The present Bill was a renewal of the Text Act in its most odious forms. It was an act of gross cruelty to stultify a poor schoolmaster, and demora- 793 lize him by applying to him this test and calling upon him to take a solemn oath, which throughout the whole of his life would bear heavily upon his conscience. He appealed to the learned Advocate General not to insist upon this test. Entertaining a strong opinion to the principle embodied in the clause, he should move its omission from the Bill.
§ Question put, "That Clause 9, as amended, stand part of the Bill.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 45; Noes 9: Majority 36.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 10 (Jurisdiction of the Presbytery in cases of immoral Conduct or Cruelty transferred to the Sheriff),
§ MR. DUNLOPobjected to the omission in this clause of charges for neglect of duty, which instead of being transferred along with those for immoral conduct and cruelty to children were still left to be tried by the Presbytery, and contended that neglect of duty, like other charges, should be tried by the sheriff. He proposed the insertion of words which would have that effect. Presbyteries, he maintained, were the worst possible tribunals for judicial functions, and the result of the jurisdiction allowed them by the Act 1803 had been that, although their sentences were declared by the statute final and not subject to revision, yet their blunders in procedure, and not keeping within the Act, had so constantly laid them open to challenge, and so many of their sentences had been quashed after long litigation, the expenses of which fell on the mentors or the Presbytery themselves, that scarcely any process was ever instituted now against a schoolmaster, and many improper parties were thus allowed to continue in office. Besides, it would be a mockery to open the parish schools to teachers of other denominations and leave them liable to be tried and deposed by the church courts of that establishment.
THE LORD ADVOCATEobjected to the Amendment. The jurisdiction of the sheriff was confined to criminal cases, and the general superintendence of the Presbytery was preserved by the Bill. He would not object to take from the Presbytery the power of deposing a schoolmaster, but he thought cases of neglect of duty ought to be under the superintendence of the Presbytery.
§ MR. BLACKsaid, that the position of these unfortunate schoolmasters appeared to be very hard indeed; for, not content 794 with compelling them to pass through the meshes of numerous examinations, it was proposed to establish something like a police in the shape of the Presbytery to watch over him as though he were a person not fit to be trusted. He could not help thinking that the whole Bill was a mockery and a delusion, and one which would not be attended with any beneficial result to the cause of education in Scotland. He hoped that the time would soon come when they would have a Ministry not afraid to deal with this question in a liberal spirit. It would be very much better if the Bill were lost, and they had to wait a little longer for a better measure.
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, it was no doubt quite true that the Bill did not go so far as could be wished, but still it was a step in the right direction, and one which would open the schools to the children of both classes, and would form a useful basis for future enlightened and liberal legislation.
§ MR. BUCHANANconsidered that, although the Bill was not altogether satisfactory, he still regarded it as a step in the right direction, and hoped that the hon. Member for Greenock would not press his Amendment.
§ MR. DUNLOPsaid, that his Amendment was, in his opinion, essential to the good working of the Bill, and declined to withdraw it.
§ SRI EDWARD COLEBROOKEattached great importance to the Amendment, and thought that they ought to deprive the Presbytery of every rag of judicial power which they now possessed, in order that the Dissenters might be convinced that justice would be done to them in the management of the schools.
§ MR. MUREsaid, the Bill had been framed with a view to the satisfaction of all parties, and to secure its passing in that and the other House. If they were to deprive the Presbytery of all power of interference in the case of neglect of duty, they would reduce them to a state in which they would have no power of superintendence whatever.
§ MR. BLACKBURNsaid, the effect of the Amendment would be to separate the schools from the Church altogether. That would be entirely opposed to the object of the Bill.
§ MR. CARNEGIEhad no fears that the Presbyteries would abuse the power granted to them by the Bill, and opposed the Amendment.
§ MAJOR CUMMING BRUCEasked why they should deprive the Presbytery of that remnant of connection with the schools which they had so long enjoyed? It was to the Church they owed the schools, and it was the connection of the Church with them that had led to the happy union of secular and religious teaching which had so long distinguished the schools of Scotland.
§ COLONEL SYKESwould support the clause as it stood, as it was only by preserving it in its integrity they could hope to pass the Bill.
§ MR. G. W. HOPEthought they should at least leave the Presbytery to judge of the daily doings and shortcomings of the schoolmaster. They had deprived them of every other power in connection with the school; but, as they must be the best judges of the schoolmaster's conduct, he thought they should be allowed to retain the superintendence that was still left to them.
§ MR. DUNLOPwould withdraw his Amendment, provided the Lord Advocate would consent to take from the Presbytery the power of libelling the schoolmaster.
§ SIR JAMES FERGUSSONthought each side ought to make concessions on this question; but he begged to observe that the withdrawal of powers from the Presbytery proposed by this Bill would create pain among many persons in Scotland.
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he was prepared so to amend the Bill, that the Presbytery should be invested merely with the power of censure and suspension, and not with the power of dismissal.
LORD STANLEYasked how long the suspension of a schoolmaster might continue, and whether it would involve a loss a salary?
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, that the suspension, like an ecclesiastical censure, could be prolonged indefinitely, and that it would involve a loss of salary as long as it continued.
§ MR. G. W. HOPEsaid, that there was no reason to apprehend that the heritors would allow the school to be closed for any length of time; so that practically the power of suspension would not be of an indefinite extent.
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, he was 796 ready to adopt that suggestion. He would limit the power of suspension to a period of three months; and he hoped that under those circumstances the hon. and learned Member for Greenock would not press his Amendment.
§ MR. DUNLOPsaid, that in answer to the appeal of the Lord Advocate, he would withdraw the Amendment. He felt less difficulty in doing so, as he had reason to think that, on a division, he would not receive the support of many of those Members who agreed with him upon the general principle.
§ Amendment, by leave, withrawn.
§ MR. DUNLOPproposed the insertion of words which would entitle the Presbytery to institute proceedings against a schoolmaster on the application of the heritors and minister, or of any six heads of families in the parish who had children attending the school.
§ SIR JAMES FERGUSSONthought the Amendment would give power to persons in the parish needlessly to annoy a schoolmaster.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ On the Motion of Mr. MURE, words were added to deprive a schoolmaster of his salary when under suspension, and to appropriate it towards providing a substitute.
§ Clause as amended, agreed to, as was also Clause 11.
§ Clause 12 (Repeal of Clauses of the recited Act requiring an Estimate of the Value of Grain to be made at successive Period),
THE LORD ADVOCATEproposed to add words to the effect that the right of electing a parochial schoolmaster jure devoluto, conferred by a 15th section of the recited Act on the Commissioners of Supply of the county after the expiration of four months from the time when the vacancy in any parochial school had taken place, should not arise or accrue to the Commissioners of Supply until the expiration of six months from the time of such vacancy.
§ Amendment agreed to,
§ Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 13 omitted.
§ Clause 14 (Schoolmaster's House to consist of Four Apartments),
§ MR. LOCKHARTproposed the addition of words to enable heritors to take ground for the schoolmaster's house, &c., 797 and to provide an adequate supply of water.
THE LORD ADVOCATEobjected to the Amendment, which would impose a heavy expenditure in many instances.
LORD STANLEYsaid, the words proposed gave a very great power to a very limited body. They would enable the heritors to take any ground they might fix upon.
§ Amendment withdrawn.
§ Clauseagreed to.
§ Clause 15 agreed to.
§ Clause 16 (Schoolmasters in Royal Burghs not to be required to sign Confession of Faith or Formula of Church of Scotland),
§ MR. DUNLOPmoved to insert, in line 12, after "thereof," the following words, "nor shall any such schoolmaster be subject to the trial, judgment, or censure of the presbytery of the bounds for his sufficiency, qualifications, or deportment in his office."
§ Clause agreed to, as were also the remaining Clauses.
§ MR. DUNLOPmoved a new Clause to enable heritors from time to time to discontinue existing side schools.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ MR. DUNLOPmoved a new Clause to enable the heritors to appoint a female teacher.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ MR. DUNLOPmoved a Clause to the effect that teachers might be required to resign, provisions being made for them during life.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ MR. DUNLOPmoved a Clause to enable the electors of schoolmasters to choose more than one candidate to be tried by examiners.
§ Clause negatived.
§ SRI JAMES FERGUSSONmoved a Clause to the effect that, upon agreement between the heritors and schoolmaster, the office of schoolmaster might be declared vacant, a retiring pension being provided.
§ Clause agreed to.
THE LORD ADVOCATEproposed that the following should come after Clause 9:—
It shall be competent for the Presbytery of the Bounds, or for the heritors, whensoever they shall see cause for instituting proceedings against the schoolmaster of any parish for contravention of the said declaration, to present a complaint to one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of 798 State against such schoolmaster; and it shall be lawful to the Secretary of State thereupon to appoint a Commission to inquire into the said charge, and to censure, suspend, or deprive such schoolmaster, as they shall find to be just, provided that no such sentence shall take effect until it has been confirmed and approved by the Secretary of State.
§ MR. BLACKobjected to the clause. He believed it would not be put in force; but if proceedings were never taken under the clause it would be a mere sham, and ought not to be enacted.
§ MR. ADAMalso objected to the clause, and contended that the only true course was to separate religious from secular teaching, and leave the people to say what religious teaching should be given to their children.
THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, the people of Scotland were divided in opinion upon many things, but they all agreed in this, that secular and religious teaching should not be separated from each other.
§ MR. ADAMdid not mean to exclude religion from the schools; but held that the people should be left to choose religious education for themselves and their children.
§ SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEobjected strongly to the test that had been introduced into the Bill.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ MR. ADAMmoved a Clause to the effect that were a schoolmaster was absent for more than three weeks continuously, except in vacation time, it might be lawful for the heritors to appoint a substitute to be paid out of the salary and fees received by such schoolmaster—absence from ill-health not coming within the meaning of the clause.
§ Clause negatived.
On the Motion of MR. LESLIE,a Clause was adopted to the effect that on the retirement of a schoolmaster the house and premises of the school should be made over within a certain time to the successor, and where the house and premises formed part of the retiring allowance, the heritors should make reasonable compensation to the ex-schoolmaster.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ A Clause was added, on the Motion of Mr. MURE, providing for the resignation of a schoolmaster declared by the inspectors to be incompetent to discharge his duties from infirmity or old age, also providing for the resignation of a schoolmaster, who from negligence or inattention shall fail efficiently to discharge his duties; and providing for the payment of a retiring allow- 799 ance when the resignation shall not be caused by any fault of the schoolmaster.
§ Preamble agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 243.]