HC Deb 02 July 1861 vol 164 cc191-7

Order for Committee read.

MR. BLACK said, that he did not object to go into Committee on the Bill, but he did not think it would afford a satisfactory settlement of a subject which had been contested in Scotland for a long time. What was desired was a national sectarian system of education, and he did not think the Bill provided it, inasmuch as it declared that the teaching in the schools should be according to the Shorter Catechism, which set forth the doctrines of the Presbyterian Church, The Church of Scotland, the Free church, and the United Presbyterians would, no doubt, be satisfied with the Bill, because they got in it all they wanted. But there ware some smaller bodies who would not be satisfied. It had been said it was a step in the right direction, but in his opinion it was a complete obstacle to further progress. He should not oppose the Committee, but he wished to express his dissatisfaction with the measure as it now stood.

House in Committee.

(In the Committee.) Clause I (Interpretation of Terms),

MR. MURE

said, he would move an Amendment to the effect that the word "heritors" should mean persons qualified under the Act of 1803.

MR. BUCHANAN

said, that by the Bill they were changing the payment of schoolmasters from so many merks Scots to pounds sterling, and he thought some change should also take place in the designation of heritors, whose qualification was an absolute one of £100 Scots, a kind of money that no longer existed.

MR. MURE

said, he thought they should adhere to the definition laid down in the Bill of 1803.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed. There was not the least doubt as to the meaning of the word, and he would take care that the Bill should be made perfectly clear.

MR. MURE

said, he was willing to accept that promise, and he would withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2 (Salaries of Schoolmasters).

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he wished to move to insert words which would make the minimum salary £35, instead of £30. The Bill provided only how much the heritors should have to pay, but did not intend to limit the salary to so low a sum. The maximum he should propose would be £60, but he would prefer to make it £70, and as that maximum was at the option of the heritors the sum would not be extravagant.

MR. BLACKBURN

complained that no grant was given to the parish schoolmasters out of the general educational fund.

MR. G. W. HOPE

said, he thought the salaries of the schoolmasters should be in proportion to the number of pupils they had.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

was very much of that opinion. He knew a case in which a school was endowed with salary to the amount of £600 a year, and the master, in order to get quit of the scholars, used to flog all new-comers severely, so that in time the school was deserted.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

proposed, as an Amendment, that the maximum salary should be £70.

MR. DUNLOP

said, he would suggest that it should be £80.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. MURE

proposed that £50 should be substituted for £40, and £80 for £60, in cases where there might be more school-masters than one.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. BLACK

proposed to add to the end of the clause words that would enable proprietors and occupants, as well as heritors, to discharge all duties performed by heritors.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 (Salary to be fixed by the Heritors and Minister, and to be payable in money at the terms and under the conditions now in use),

MR. DUNLOP

proposed to insert a series of Amendments making the salaries of the schoolmasters payable by the parties liable according to the real annual value of their lands as appearing in the yearly valuation roll made up under the recent Valuation Act, instead of, as at present, according to the old "valued rent." That was a valuation made in the reign of Charles II., and not at all applicable to the present state of things. The payment should be based on the rental as at the time of payment, and not on the rental which the lands yielded two centuries ago, since when the proportionate value of properties had totally altered. The first of these Amendments would merely be to provide for the payment of the salaries half-yearly "by equal portions," but he would take the sense of the Committee on the whole plan by moving the insertion of these words.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he did not wish to counteract the view taken by the hon. Member for Greenock, but as his hon. Friend had not said how his proposal was to be carried into effect, he suggested that he should withdraw his proposal in the meantime, and bring up a clause in the Report by which the mode of carrying out the new valuation in the case of schools might be determined.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MURE

said, he would propose to add words giving power to heritors holding one-third of the valuation of a parish to call a meeting to fix the salary of the schoolmaster when a vacancy took place, in the event of the minister delaying or refusing to do so.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to,

Clause 4 omitted.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6, (Heritors may provide retiring allowances to Schoolmasters),

MR. MURE

proposed to add words to the effect that on a schoolmaster being reported by an inspector of schools and by the Presbytery as infirm or unequal to the discharge of his duties, the heritors and minister might call on him to resign or dismiss him, and should have power to grant to him a retiring allowance of not less than two-thirds of his salary.

Clause omitted.

Clause 7 (Examination by Examiners appointed by the Universities to come in the place of the examination by the Presbytery),

MR. DUNLOP

thought that a Board of Examiners, consisting exclusively of University professors was deficient in one essential element, that of parties conversant with the practical business of teaching in schools, and he proposed an alteration which would have the effect of substituting for two of the professors two members of the Educational Institute of Scotland on the Board of Examiners.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he regretted that he could not consent to the Amendment, not because he had any objection to give the power proposed to the Educational Institute, but because it would interfere with the principle that the examining body should be connected with the Universities. He wished to see the schools of Scotland affiliated to the Universities of Scotland, and though he had the very highest opinion of the Educational Institute he did not see that their services could be made available in this case.

MR. DUNLOP

said, his Amendment would leave the selection of the examiners in the hands of the Universities, and he, therefore, could not see that there was any force in the objection taken by the learned Lord. He would, however, add to his Amendment the words "being graduates of the University."

MR. G. W. HOPE

said, he objected to the examination of schoolmasters being placed in the hands of a voluntary body like the Educational Institute.

MR. MURE

said, he thought it would be of importance to introduce into the Examining Board persons practically acquainted with teaching.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that if his hon. Friend the Member for Greenock allowed the matter to stand over, he would endeavour to introduce a clause on the Report which would give effect to what might be called the practical teaching element in the examination.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. BUCHANAN

said, he proposed to leave out the words "licentiates of the Church of Scotland," and insert "Presbyterian Churches in Scotland." In appointing the examiners they should avoid sectarianism as far as possible.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he must oppose the Amendment.

SIR ANDREW AGNEW

said, he would rather leave out the latter part of the clause specifying what class of persons should be appointed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MURE

proposed words to the effect that a Professor in the Faculty of Divinity, or the deputy nominated by him, should always be one of the examiners.

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 36, after the word "number," to insert the words "of whom a Professor in the Faculty of Divinity, or the Deputy nominated by him, shall always be one."

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 31; Noes 58: Majority 27.

MR. DUNLOP

objected to this which would practically give a veto on the passing of any candidate to the Professors of Divinity.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to, as was also Clause 8.

Clause 9 (Parochial Schoolmasters not to be required to sign confession of faith or formula but to make a declaration, and to undertake to conform to the shorter catechism),

MR. BLACK

said, that he had the strogest objection to that part of the Bill, by which a test was imposed upon schoolmasters. He was no party to the compromise by which the Bill had been introduced; but this he thought was the sting of the whole. No man had a right to impose a test upon another, and in that case not only was the principle a bad one, but other safeguards of religion were provided. Not only was a test wrong in principle, but it was dangerous and mischievous in practice. He moved the rejection of the words by which the test was imposed.

Mr. ADAMS

said, he also opposed the imposition of a test. It had been proved that they could get good religious teaching without tests, and he believed that the feeling of Scotland was gradually rising against them. At the same time he hoped his hon. Friend would not endanger the Bill by pressing his Amendment to a division.

CAPTAIN CARNEGIE

said, he also opposed tests, but he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he must appeal to the hon. Gentleman not to divide the Committee. He agreed in every word which had fallen from him as to the uselessness of tests; but he well knew what was the fate of Bills that had been sent up from the House without the test, and he begged him, therefore, to allow the compromise to be effected.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he would likewise urge the hon. Member for Edinburgh not to press his Amendment.

MR. BLACK

said, he found plenty of hon. Members to agree with him, but as they would not vote with him he would very unwillingly withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he proposed that the following additional declaration should be taken by schoolmasters previous to entering office— And that I will not exercise the functions of the said office to the prejudice or subversion of the Church of Scotland as by law established, or the doctrines and privileges thereof.

SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKE

said, he objected to the introduction of the words.

MR. BLACK

said, he would not have withdrawn his Amendment had he thought that the evil of the test was to be aggravated in the way now proposed by the Lord Advocate. He would divide the Committee on the proposal.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he could not consent to the withdrawal of the words. He had only to say that the withdrawal of these words would be tantamount to the withdrawal of the Bill altogether, as he could not see the possibility of carrying the Bill without them.

MR. CAIRD

suggested that the hon. Member for Edinburgh should divide upon the next Amendment, which was far more important, as it referred to the tribunal by which schoolmasters were to be judged.

Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he would then propose to insert the following words— And the wilful contravention by any schoolmaster of the said declaration shall be considered and dealt with as neglect of duty under the provisions of the said recited Act; provided always, that it shall not be competent to insist in any proceedings against any schoolmaster for such contravention without the consent of Her Majesty's Advocate being first obtained, on a representation to him by the heritors of the parish, and after such inquiry as he may think necessary.

MR. DUNLOP

said, that he trusted the learned Lord did not consider that the rejection of this Amendment would be tantamount to the rejection of the Bill, as he, and he believed many other Members would rather lose the Bill than consent to the Amendment as it stood, for its effect taken in connection with another clause which left the trial of schoolmasters for "neglect of duty" in hands of Presbyteries, would be to make the Presbyteries of the establishment the exclusive judges of contravention of the declaration, for which they might depose schoolmasters from their office.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again on Thursday.