QUESTION. (Hansard, 4 May 1860)

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL

Sir, I will endeavour to answer the various questions which have been addressed to me, but I will not now attempt to enter into a discussion with the hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) as to the general policy which has been pursued by Her Majesty's Government.

The first question which has been addressed to me concerns our relations with the Empire of Japan, and I have to inform the hon. Member that since the papers to which he referred were laid on the table, other despatches of considerable interest and importance have been received. In forming a trading connection with a country for the first time very considerable difficulties have unavoidably to be encountered, and in the case of Japan one of these difficulties was the state of the currency, because, while the proportion of gold to silver in this country has been as one to fifteen, or thereabouts, in Japan it has been as one to five. It was therefore a very profitable business for the British merchants, or rather their agents in Japan, to obtain quantities of silver, and with that to purchase gold for exportation. That trade naturally excited a good deal of apprehension and objection on the part of the Japanese Government and people; but I am happy to say that the Japanese Government have, pursued a sensible course in this matter, and have made the proportions of gold and silver in their currency the same as has been generally adopted in the countries of Europe. The opening of our commercial intercourse with Japan has been attended with various other occurrences, more than one of them, I am sorry to say, of a very distressing character. For instance, one of the servants of the British Mission was a native of Japan, who had passed many years in the United States, and was a master of the Japanese and English languages. His conduct bad provoked a great deal of animosity on the part of his countrymen, and some of them having assaulted him he placed the offenders in the hands of the police, thereby causing a great deal of ill-feeling. The consequence was that one day, when he was standing at the door of the Mission, two or three persons suddenly rushed upon him and stabbed him so severely that he died instantly. The British Consul insisted that proper reparation should be made, and that the offenders should be prosecuted. The deceased accordingly received a public funeral, and his murderers were ordered to be arrested. All 687 this was done without exciting any ill feeling; and in his latest letters Mr. Alcock, while representing the state of affairs as still very unsatisfactory, and the apprehension that other murders might be committed as still prevalent, expressed himself more hopefully than in his former letters as to the prospect of the difficulties being overcome and of a considerable trade being established. At the same time it appears that the trade which is carried on consists almost entirely of Japanese produce supplied in return for silver, and that there is no considerable demand, indeed hardly any demand at all for British manufactured goods. In regard to the measures which have been taken for the protection of British subjects, I may say that there are ships which visit Yeddo from time to time, but as they are unable to approach within four or five miles of that town, they cannot be on the spot to interfere on any occasion when their presence might be required. As soon, however, as the Admiral can spare ships, that protection will be afforded to our countrymen in Japan to which they are entitled. I feel very strongly that we must be very careful that none of the clerks or agents of British merchants out there should commit any offence against the customs of the Japanese, for unless they abstain entirely from behaviour of that kind, we cannot justly complain of outrages against us, and it will be impossible to maintain satisfactory relations between the two countries.

The next question was put to me by the hon. and learned Member for Belfast, and refers to the delay which has been occasioned by the Brazilian Government in the disposal of the claims of British subjects laid before the Mixed Commission under the convention of the 2nd of June, 1858. The reason of the delay was, that an immense number of counter claims had been made, chiefly founded on slave trade transactions, some most notorious slave traders between Brazil and Africa complaining of the hindrance caused by the British cruisers to their nefarious traffic. Great difficulty was found in disposing of these claims. The British Government thought that those cases did not come within the terms of the convention; but the Brazilian Commissioners decided that unless they were investigated no inquiry should take place into the English claims; and thus the Mixed Commission was suspended on account of the differences which arose. An application has since been made by the Brazilian Minister 688 to have the Commission renewed, but as the subject is attended with so many difficulties, and as those cases ought not, it appears to me, to have come before the Commission at all, I have resolved to take the opinion of the law officers of the Crown on the question. About a week or a fortnight ago the papers were accordingly submitted to those officers, and are still under their consideration. I cannot of course say at present what will be their decision.

I now come to the question which was addressed to me by the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Acton) in regard to the Despatches and Reports from the diplomatic agents of the British Government in Rome from the year 1855 to the present time, relating to the condition and administration of the Roman States. The diplomatic agent we have at Rome is not one of the regular character, but only an attaché to another mission in Italy, and therefore is not in the habit of transmitting diplomatic reports in the absence of any regular diplomatic relations with the court of Rome. I will endeavour, however, to see whether between 1855 and 1858 there are any Despatches which will throw the light which the hon. Baronet wishes upon the Government of the Court of Rome. Our information on that subject is not entirely founded on the Reports of our diplomatic agents, because various acts have been published from time to time and circulated in the provinces of the Roman States, which did not immediately concern the Court of Rome, and have not been reported to us by our agents. For instance, Bologna was for a considerable time in the hands of the Austrian army, and all the criminal jurisdiction of the place was conducted by Austrian courts-martial. That, of course, was different from the judicial system of Rome, and had nothing to do with the general conduct of that Court.

The hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. Hennessy) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dundalk (Mr. Bowyer) seem to think I have some very peculiar objection to the Government of the Pope. I beg to say that for the personal character of the Pope I entertain very great respect. I believe him to be a most benevolent man, and a book has been written by an hon. Member of this House (Mr. Maguire), which shows that with regard to certain departments of the Papal government, such as the administration of hospitals and so on, nothing could be more charitable or afford a stronger proof of kindness of heart than the conduct of the Pope. But there are other 689 departments of Government, such as more especially the administration of justice— ["Hear, hear"], which—I do not say the present Pope in particular—but the ecclesiastical government generally is, in my opinion, ill-calculated to discharge to the benefit of the people. The hon. Member for King's County said that, as a member of the Church of England, I might, of course, object to Papal government. Now I will say that though I have a very great respect for the Archbishop of Canterbury, yet, I believe, if Her Majesty were to transfer the Government of the county of Kent to the Archbishop, that county would speedily become the worst administered part of the kingdom. It is not, therefore, from any Protestant prejudice that I have not thought particularly well of the government of the Pope; but, at the same time, I confess there are opinions held by Roman Catholics in which, of course, I as a Protestant cannot share. For instance, an Italian gentleman, who is very much respected, has written a pamphlet, in which he says that to take the Romagna from the Pope is not an aggression, is not a robbery, but is a sacrilege. [Mr. BOWYER: Hear, hear.] No doubt my Italian Friend stated those as the opinions of Roman Catholics, but they cannot expect that Protestants will deem it sacrilege to deprive the Romagna of the Government of the Pope. With regard to the Despatches written by Mr. Russell, there is this to be said—Cardinal Antonelli has spoken to Mr. Russell with the greatest openness about the mode of government in the Pope's dominions, and has said, "As you are not a regular diplomatic agent, we can speak to you with less reserve than we could if your character were strictly official." That is a reason, I think, why we should not produce to Parliament everything which Mr. Russell reports. The last thing to which the hon. Member for Dundalk referred was our conduct with regard to Naples, and he expressed an opinion that we have very unnecessarily interfered. But the conduct of that Government has been such to its subjects, both in Naples and Sicily, that it may at any time bring on complications and armed interference by one party or another, to which we cannot be indifferent. There is this likewise to be said—the Ministers of the King of the two Sicilies have from time to time communicated with us, which shows a reliance, and, in spite of my hon. Friend, I will say a just reliance, 690 on the friendship of Her Majesty's Government. Upon one occasion there was a report that General Garibaldi was going to Genoa, that ships were being armed there, and that they would sail to Sicily. The Government of the King of the Two Sicilies immediately applied to Her Majesty's Government to endeavour to stop that expedition, and I lost no time in applying to the Sardinian Government, asking them, if they had any authority over General Garibaldi, not to allow him, while holding a Commission from the King of Sardinia, to proceed. But if we are asked for such acts of friendship, I think it is fair for us to say, on the other hand, "If you wish no aggression and no insurrection, it is at least desirable that you should conduct your government with such justice, and in accordance with such acknowledged principles, that discontent will not arise among your own subjects." It is only fair that with friendly intervention, not by arms, on our part, we should say to them what is our opinion of their Government. That is the course which I have pursued. I have never attempted to threaten the Government of the King of the Two Sicilies with any interference; but I have not concealed from them the opinion, not merely of Her Majesty's Government, but of every party in the country, with regard to some acts committed by the police of Naples.

There was another question, with respect to Mr. Cobden. I have stated already to this House, that Mr. Cobden being in Paris last year as a private individual had a great many private communications with the Ministers of the Emperor of the French. It was supposed that those communications might lead to a treaty, and then he was invested regularly, just as Mr. Eden, who was only a private individual, but in opposition to the Government of the day, was invested in 1786, with the titles and functions of Plenipotentiary, as regarded the Commercial Treaty. Mr. Cobden is now again in Paris, but he has gone from this country as one of a Commission to carry out the 13th article of the Treaty of Commerce. There are three Commissioners—Mr. Cobden, a gentleman from the Board of Trade, and a gentleman from the Board of Customs, who are associated with him, and who are persons most fitted to act. I do not believe that any one person or any three persons can be acquainted with all the details of a question of converting ad valorem into specific duties; but I believe that Mr. Cobden is especially fitted to treat 691 with the French Minister of Commerce. It is a specific matter, in which he does not act as Plenipotentiary; but, if any convention should ensue, Mr. Cobden will be associated with Earl Cowley in that convention. It has been very properly said that the British Government ought not to depend on volunteers. There is no salary for a person on a special mission, but it is proposed that the expenses of Mr. Cobden while on that mission shall be defrayed out of the public purse.

With respect to China, I have been asked whether orders have been sent out to stop the military and naval expedition from undertaking any operations. There is no truth whatever in that report. On the contrary, the Earl of Elgin was very desirous that if there were to be any naval and military expeditions, they should be commenced before he reached China, so that the responsibility might not be placed on him of ordering them. I believe that if such operations are to be undertaken, they will be undertaken before the Earl of Elgin arrives. I have now, I believe, given the best answers in my power to the questions that have been addressed to me.