HC Deb 12 June 1860 vol 159 cc322-9

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Annuity Tax abolished).

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he thought that power should be given to the Commissioners to recover the arrears of the tax, and he would therefore propose in line eight, after the word "imposed," to add, "and all arrears of the said tax then due shall be payable to the Commissioners hereinafter appointed, who shall have power to collect and recover the same." He did not know whether the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Black) was still in arrear, but he believed that he was so some time ago.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he was opposed to the Amendment, inasmuch as it would have the effect of making it obligatory on the Commissioners to recover the arrears. He was of opinion that the recovery of the arrears should not be dealt with at all by the Bill, but left to the discretion of the Commissioners.

MR. BLACK

said, it was perfectly true as had been stated that he had for a considerable time refused to pay the annuity tax, and his object in thus acting was to make the condition of the clergy so uncomfortable that they would be ready to agree to any reasonable proposition which might be made for the settlement of this question. He considered the proposition made by the present measure was a very fair one, and, therefore, he should not continue to withhold the payment of the tax. He had no objection to the principle involved in the Amendment, but he believed that if they left the collection of arrears in the hands of the Commissioners, they would consider themselves bound to secure every farthing of arrears from the inhabitants of Edinburgh, which would have-the effect of continuing the irritation in regard to this question. On this ground he should oppose the Amendment.

MR. DUNLOP

said, that he thought that if the object was really to promote peace, it would be much better not to press the Amendment.

MR. MURE

observed that he was of the tame opinion.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, that as the feeling of the Committee was opposed to him, he should not press the Amendment.

Amendment withdrawn; Clause agreed to.

Clause 3 (Commissioners appointed).

MR. CAIRD

said, he objected to the composition of the Commission, which was to administer the affairs of the churches, on account of the undue preponderance given to the legal bodies. The three legal bodies of Edinburgh, who contributed only a very small proportion of the tax, ought to have only one representative instead of three. The other two representatives should he conferred on the Kirk Sessions. He should propose an Amendment by which the appointment of one Commissioner would be placed in the hands of the three legal bodies in Edinburgh, and to leave three to be appointed by the Kirk Sessions.

MR. BLACK

said, he agreed with the hon. Gentleman that those legal bodies contributed a very small proportion of the tax, but on the whole he would be better pleased to have the Commissioners elected by the legal bodies than by the Kirk Sessions.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he held that the legal bodies, being now liable to the impost, were entitled to three representatives on account of their weight and intelligence.

MR. DUNLOP

observed that he was in favour of the Amendment.

MR. MURE

said, he had placed a notice on the paper to amend the constitution of the Commission by declaring that one of such Commissioners should be elected by the Kirk Session of the Tron Church.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he was prepared to modify the clause, and to place the appointment of the Commissioners in the hands of the legal bodies, the Merchant Companies, and the Kirk Sessions. The legal bodies to appoint one, the Merchant Companies to appoint one, and three to be appointed by the Kirk Sessions, who were to be composed of all the parochial churches of Edinburgh. In that way the total number of Commissioners would be raised from ten to eleven.

Clause, as amended, agreed to; as was also Clause 4.

Clause 5 (Commissioners to appoint an Agent and Secretary).

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he wished to move as an Amendment, to insert the word "property," after the word "of" in line fifteen, in order that the property in the churches should be transferred to the Commissioners as well as the administration of them. He thought it quite clear that those who ministered and maintained the churches ought to be the proprietors of them. Why should the churches remain in some anomalous way the property of the town council, to be quarrelled for hereafter, and to give the council a right of interference.

Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 15, after the word "of," to insert the word "property."

MR. BLACK

remarked that he should oppose the Amendment. The churches were all built by the inhabitants of Edinburgh, who had laid out immense sums upon them, and it was not because they gave up their administration that they should be divested of their rights of property.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

remarked that the inhabitants would be represented in the Commission as well as in the Council.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he thought it advisable to allow the property of the churches to remain vested in the Corporation.

MR. MURE

admitted that the churches had been built by the inhabitants, but thought it was absurd to suppose that the Commissioners would do more to deteriorate their value than the Town Council, in whom they were at present vested.

Question put, "That the word 'property' be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 40; Noes 78: Majority 38.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 (Property of the City Churches transferred from the Magistrates and Council to the Commissioners).

MR. LOCKHART

said, he proposed in line 34, after "respectively," to insert "with the exception of not less than one-tenth of the number which shall be reserved as free sittings for the use of the poor." His object was to secure a certain amount of accommodation for the poor.

MR. BLACK

said, he opposed the Amendment. He thought if such a proposition were assented to the Commissioners might be prevented from raising the funds necessary under the Bill.

MR. BLACKBURN

observed that at present the seats were let by the magistrates, but their authority was much disputed. The Bill gave to the Commissioners the right of letting the seats, and it certainly ought to provide that a certain proportion should be reserved for the poor, who were unable to pay for accommodation.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that while thoroughly sympathising in the object which the hon. Member had in view, he believed it would be better attained by leaving the matter to the discretion of the Commissioners than by allotting a limited number of free seats to the poor. He might add that he was not aware that in any of the churches in Scotland there was a want of seats set apart for the poor. If, however, it were the general feeling that the Amendment was necessary he should not oppose it.

MR. LOCKHART

said, that as he read the clause, the Commissioners had no alternative but to let the whole of the seats.

COLONEL SYKES

said, he should at all times support any proposition for giving proper accommodation to the poor in churches.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

remarked that they ought to establish in the Bill the principle that a certain portion of the seats in the various churches should be set apart for the use of the poor as free seats.

MR. CUMMING BRUCE

supported the Amendment, in order to establish the principle that a certain portion of each church should be devoted to the use of the poor.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, the principle which ought to be adopted was not the distinctive allocation of so many pauper seats, but the exemption of a certain class of persons from the payment of seat-rents. There was a strong feeling in Scotland against the poor being limited to a certain part of the church.

MR. BLACK

submitted that in the churches of Edinburgh, at all events, there had never been any complaint of want of accommodation for the poor, although it was true in the church of St. Andrew there were no free sittings.

MR. CUMMING BRUCE

said, it appeared to him that the example quoted by the hon. Member for Edinburgh was a sound reason for the adoption of the Amendment. He was desirous of extending the operation of the clause to the church of St. Andrew.

SIR JOHN TRELAWNY

said, he would vindicate the rights of the poor to free sittings in the churches of Scotland as well as in those of this country.

MR. HOPE

remarked, that the system of free seats worked very well in England, and also in the country districts of Scotland. There was no reason why, if it were tried, it would not also operate beneficially in the towns of Scotland.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he would suggest the omission of the words "for the use of the poor."

Amendment, with this alteration, agreed to; Clause agreed to; as was also Clause 7.

Clause 8 (Commissioners to provide for the Repair of the Churches and other Expenses out of the Surplus of the Seat Rents, and to invest the Balance remaining)

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he could assert that after paying £600 a year to thirteen ministers of Edinburgh, the funds provided by the Bill would leave no margin whatever for the expenses of the Commission, and the possible, indeed dining the next year or two, almost inevitable diminution in the amount of the seat-rents. There ought also to be some provision for the two suspended parishes. He would therefore move an Amendment to the effect that the amount of annuity tax to be raised should be £5,000, instead of £4,200.

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 37, to leave out the words "four thousand two hundred," and insert the words "five thousand,"—instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words 'four thousand two hundred' stand part of the Clause."

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he should oppose the Amendment, as contrary to the whole spirit of the Bill. The principle of the Bill was that it was a fair settlement of the question to make provision for thirteen ministers; but if the Amendment were adopted, it would entirely set aside that arrangement.

MR. MACKIE

suggested as a compromise that the sum to be raised should be £4,500.

MR. BLACK

said, the Town Council of Edinburgh complained that £4,200 was too much, and thought £4,000 would be quite sufficient.

MR. MURE

said, that the provision made by the Bill was wholly inadequate to secure a salary of £600 a year for each of the thirteen clergymen whose interests were affected, and at the same time to defray the expenses of the Commission. The people of Edinburgh ought not to object to raise £5,000 a year when the object for which it was raised would relieve them of a tax which at present amounted to £15,000 a year.

MR. BLACK

said, the people of Edinburgh believed that the amount to be derived from seat-rents was considerably underrated, and that more than ample provision was made both for the clergy and for the expense of the Commission.

MR. MURE

said, he was confident that under the present arrangement there would not be enough money to pay the salaries of the ministers for the first few years of the new system. The proposed addition to the tax was so very trifling, not a farthing in the pound, that he hoped it would be conceded.

MR. BLACK

called in question the data upon which the hon. Member (Mr. Mure) based his calculations. He thought that any attempt to increase the amount proposed would have the effect of occasioning irritation among the people of Edinburgh.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he had no doubt that, even if there were any deficiency at the first, the Established Church would find no difficulty in raising the £300 or £400, which might be required. The seat-rents might be increased, and the expenses of collection might be reduced, and the congregation might come forward to take upon themselves the expense of repairing the churches. On the other hand, the Amendment, if insisted on, would have the effect of defeating the settlement which they were on the eve of accomplishing, and which, he was sure, all parties must desire.

MR. DUNLOP

said, he thought that the Church had no right to complain of the proposed arrangement. The sum provided was already too large. Nor was there any risk of the clergymen being deprived of the salaries proposed. On the contrary, he was of opinion there would be a considerable augmentation of the funds from the seat-rents.

MR. BUCHANAN

said, he was in favour of the suggestion which had been made by the hon. Member for Kirkcudbright (Mr. Mackie)—namely, that the sum should be increased from £4,200 to £4,500.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, the Church of Scotland had already made a great concession in consenting to the reduction of the number of the City clergy; but there was a point beyond which they ought not to go, and that was the point of ensuring the thirteen ministers who were retained a salary of £600 a year. He was of opinion that it was impossible, with a due regard to principle and propriety, to fix less than £4,500 as the settlement.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he would withdraw his proposition in favour of the suggestion of the hon. Member for Kirkcudbright (Mr. Mackie), so that the sum should be fixed at £4,500.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Another Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "two," and insert the word "five," instead thereof.

MR. HADFIELD

deprecated the principle of paying the clergymen £600 a year, besides providing means for the collection of the funds.

Question put, "That the word 'two' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 89; Noes 58: Majority 31.

Clauses 8 and 9 were then agreed to.

Clause 10 (Assessment to be collected along with the Police Assessment).

MR. MURE moved, that the following Amendment be added to the Clause:— That the tenants or occupiers of any property liable in payment of the said increased police assessment, shall be entitled, and they are hereby authorized, in making payment of the rent of the said property, to retain from such rent the amount of such increased assessment, except in the case where the said property shall, prior to the passing of this Act, have been let for a term of years, in which case the said increased assessment shall be borne by the occupier till the expiry of the period for which the said property was let.

MR. BLACK

stated, that every Act relating to this tax that had been passed distinctly provided that it should be levied on occupiers. It would be unjust to the proprietors of Edinburgh to transfer the incidence of the tax to their shoulders. He was, therefore, opposed to the proviso.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he believed that the proposed Amendment would tend to promote peace in the collection of the tax.

SIR WILLIAM DUNBAR

observed, that he was of opinion that the Amendment would be an entire departure from the compromise that had been agreed to.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided—Ayes 53; Noes 85: Majority 32.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 10 to 13 inclusive; House resumed; Committee report progress; to sit again on Friday, at Twelve of the clock.

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