HC Deb 31 July 1860 vol 160 cc424-8

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clause 6 (Who shall be deemed to keep a Refreshment House).

COLONEL DUNNE

said, that great confusion and inconvenience had already arisen from the definition of the term "refreshment house" in the English Bill. It would be far better if the Government would adhere to the pledge they had given, namely, not to proceed with it any further this Session. He should not much object to the extension to Ireland of the English law with respect to the sale of wine; but by the 6th clause a tax would be imposed upon great numbers of poor persons, who would obtain nothing whatever in return for their money. He begged, therefore, to move, after the word "buildings," in line 32, the insertion of the words, "which shall be over the value of ten pounds." As the clause stood, it should be remembered that it would impose a tax on those who merely sold food.

MR. AYRTON

contended that the clause in this, as in the English Act, was only to apply to places of public resort and entertainment, such as Cremorne, or tea-gardens, and such places, where the proprietors were under a contract to the public, and not to persons keeping ordinary shops, and who were under no such contract with the public.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that no particular instructions had been given to the Commissioners of Excise in regard to this clause, because no difficulty had arisen upon the construction of it. If any difficulty should arise in respect to it, he should exercise the best of his judgment in giving the interpretation of it. He could not assent to the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, because this being a provision of police and good order, it would not in his opinion be wise to make the exception which the Amendment proposed, which, if agreed to, would stultify the principle of the measure already assented to. He was, however, willing that the provisions of the Bill should not apply to any towns with a population under 10,000 inhabitants.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he was not aware that concession was offered, but as it quite met his objection he should leave the Amendment in the hands of the Representatives of the borough towns. He should not, however, withdraw the Amendment without the consent of those hon. Gentlemen.

COLONEL FRENCH

complained, that while faith had been kept with Scotland, the promise not to extend the operation of the measure beyond England had been broken with regard to Ireland. He did not see why towns with above ten thousand inhabitants should be subject to the clause.

MR. AYRTON

said, he could not see why a person who sold a bun after nine o'clock at night should be more subject to visits from the police than one who sold a mutton chop. The Commissioners of Excise had sent their agents to persons whom Parliament never intended to make liable to the law, and had endeavoured to intimi- date them into taking out licences. He would, however, take another opportunity of bringing the subject under the notice of the House.

MR. HENNESSY

said, that Ireland ought to feel indebted to the hon. and learned Gentleman for the interest he took in this question. There was no doubt but that this was a proposition to impose an additional tax upon the people of Ireland for the supervision of the police, in a manner that must prove most vexatious to the shopkeepers in that country.

MR. BLAKE

said, that to impose a tax of 10s. 6d. on the class of small refreshment houses, which were not allowed to sell wine, would render a measure, in other respects popular, unpopular in Ireland. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman would not press it.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill,"

The Committee divided:—Ayes 34; Noes 24: Majority 10.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Clause 8 (Wine Licences not to be granted for Refreshment Houses under a certain annual Value).

MR. DEASY

moved to substitute the word "eight" for "ten" in line thirty-two. The object was to adopt the same principle as that acted upon in the English Bill, £8 being the Parliamentary franchise in Ireland.

MR. HENNESSY

said, he should op-pose the Amendment. He had himself intended to propose the substitution of "twenty" for "ten."

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 9 to 12 were agreed to.

Clause 13 (Notice of First Application for a Wine Licence for a Refreshment House to be given to Justices, who may object to the granting thereof on Ground stated).

COLONEL DUNNE

objected to the machinery laid down for the procuring a licence, and argued in favour of adhering to the present mode of granting licences in Ireland. He disapproved the scheme for obtaining a licence from the supervisor, and saw no reason why different courses should be followed with regard to wine and spirits. He proposed the introduction of words to the effect that a certificate should be obtained from two justices of the peace approving the licence.

MR. BUTT

said, that the principle of the Bill was to encourage a taste for wine instead of spirits. The Amendment proposed, however, would have the effect of throwing unnecessary restrictions in the way of procuring licences for the sale of wines.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the Amendment went really to counteract the principle of the Bill, by confirming that disturbing power which the Bill was intended to abolish. Parliament had already decided, in the English Bill, that the principle of constituting magistrates judges ns to the number of places in a district which should supply liquor was objectionable, and, as the Amendment would establish that principle with regard to Ireland, he could not accept it.

Question put, "That the words 'such requisition' stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 62: Noes 14; Majority 48.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 14 (Sub-Constabulary Officer or Superintendent of Police may object to the granting of such Wine Licence).

MR. HENNESSY

moved to strike out the words giving the magistrate power to inquire of a man applying for a licence, whether or not he belonged to an unlawful society.

MR. DEASY

said, Clause 13 declared that no member of an unlawful society should have a licence, and this power of inquiry seemed to follow as a consequence.

MR. BUTT

objected to the words of the clause, inasmuch as it would be difficult to prove the fact of a person belonging to an unlawful society, and the provision would give rise to suspicion, and probably to false information.

MR. DEASY

said, he would consider the suggestion, and, if it were thought advisable, introduce it on the Report. In the meantime he would not further object to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to; as were also Clauses 15 to 19.

Clause 20 (Constables and Police Officers empowered to visit licensed Refreshment Houses. Penalty for refusing them Admittance).

LORD FERMOY

objected that the clause gave power to the police to enter a licensed house at any time, and that on their entrance being refused, a fine of £5 might be imposed for the first offence, and on the second the licence might be suspended for two years.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the entrance of the police would be confined to the hours intervening between nine at night and seven in the morning, that being the time which the licence would permit the House to be open, and he proposed words accordingly.

Amendment agreed to; Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 21 to 36 inclusive, agreed to.

House resumed; Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.