HC Deb 20 July 1859 vol 155 cc122-30

Order for second reading read.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

, in moving the second reading of the Bill said, it was almost entirely identical with that introduced in the last Session. He believed that the House would agree to all the propositions, except, perhaps, one which had been the subject of dissensions. The question of weights and measures was considered by a Select Committee of the House of Commons as long ago as 1834, and the result was a report in favour of corn being in future sold by measure with the test of weight per bushel. Measure or weight alone would be no test of value. A pound of feathers weighed as much as a pound of lead; and a pound of bad corn weighed the same as a pound of good. To afford the buyer a proper guarantee for quality as well as quantity the tests of measure and weight should be combined. For instance, if he gave an order for such a quantity of corn to weigh so many pounds per quarter, he there had quantity and quality combined. The first clause of the Bill, however, provided merely that corn should be sold by measure. The Acts for the purpose of the tithe commutation rent charge and the corn returns were all on the principle that corn should be sold by measure; and the introduction of a new system of selling by weight would be attended with obvious inconvenience. From certain returns which had been laid before Parliament, it appeared that in 243 places corn was sold by the imperial bushel; in 14 places by local measures; and in 28 places by weight—the gross number of places being 285. Corn, therefore, being almost universally sold by measure, the object of the first clause was to remove the exceptions, and to enact that corn should everywhere be sold by the Imperial bushel, and not by any local or customary measure. In Scot-laud and in the north of England there was the boll, and there were also a considerable number of peculiar local measures, the use of which caused much inconvenience. There was no difference of opinion on this point—that if corn was to be sold by measure it should be the Imperial measure, and if by weight it should be the Imperial weight. The first clause of his Bill provided, then, that corn should be sold by the Imperial measure only; and he submitted that unless there were insuperable objections to selling by measure that clause carried out the intentions of all the Acts of Parliament that had ever been passed on the subject; whilst if the parties to a sale of corn chose to stipulate that the measure should be of a certain weight it might still be considered a sale by measure and the transaction would not be vitiated as a sale by measure in consequence of any such stipulation. The second clause of the Bill was intended to remove a very serious inconvenience. It enacted that models and copies of weights and measures should be reverified at certain fixed intervals. By the 5th of Geo. IV., c. 74, it was provided that models of the standard weights and measures should be deposited in each county, and by a subsequent Act, passed in the following reign, provision was made for their reverification at the Exchequer in London. But no provision was made for a repetition of the process of verification in future years, and the consequence was that all the weights and measures throughout the country had become very inaccurate; and upon referring to a return, which he himself had moved for, of all the fines which had been imposed upon persons for using false weights and measures, it would be seen that persons had been fined for the slightest deviations from models and copies of weights and measures which were themselves inaccurate and had never been re-verified since the passing of the Act. This, he contended, was a very serious grievance and injury to the parties concerned. It was impossible to say that they had been justly dealt with, and therefore he proposed that the models and copies should be re-verified within the period of three years for weights and six years for measures. He also proposed by another clause to inflict a penalty upon all persons who should knowingly make or sell false beams, scales, or balances, or false weights or measures; for, singularly enough, there was no power at pre- sent to restrain persons either from manufacturing false weights and measures or of vending them with impunity when made. They must not use them, but there was no law whatever to prevent their manufacture and sale. The penalty he proposed in this case was £10. The fourth clause provided that any person convicted of using false beams or scales, or false weights or measures, in the public streets, should be subjected to a penalty of £5, and it empowered inspectors, at all reasonable times, to examine all beams, scales, and balances, and all weights and measures used in any open ground or any public street or thoroughfare. At present the practice of selling by false weights in the public streets prevailed to an enormous extent; but his fourth clause, if adopted, would put a stop to it. The fifth clause empowered certain parties to provide correct beams and scales, and weights and measures, in all public markets, with the view of ascertaining at any moment whether business was carried on fairly or not; while the sixth enabled inspectors of markets to examine all packets and bottles exposed for sale, for the purpose of seeing whether they were of the right weight or measure. Such were the provisions of his Bill. The question as to the mode in which grain should be sold might be discussed in Committee, and he maintained that his measure embodied no principle which ought to induce the House to reject it at once.

MR. EDWIN JAMES

seconded the Motion.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

MR. CAIRD

said, that the question of weights and measures was one of considerable importance and required great deliberation. It was in fact a question between the east and west of England, all buyers and sellers in the west and in Ireland being in favour of weight, and all in the east in favour of measure. At this late period of the Session it would be impossible to consider the question with that attention which it deserved, and, as the hon. Member for Drogheda (Mr. M'Cann) had withdrawn his Bill for the establishment of the system of weight, he thought that the present measure should be postponed also, in order that the two might be referred together to a Select Committee next Session. He moved as an Amendment, that the Bill should be read that day three months.

Amendment proposed to leave out the Word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months.'"

Question proposed, "That the word 'now,' stand part of the Question."

MR. HORSFALL

thought that the hon. and learned Member for Southwark had not treated him fairly in moving the second reading of this Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman had assured him that it was not his intention to move the adoption of the first clause—which would have made the Bill a mere Weights and Measures Bill—and upon that understanding he had told him that he had no objection to the Bill. If the hon. and learned Member was willing to withdraw this clause, he should not object to the other portions; but if the hon. and learned Member persisted in supporting that clause he should feel it his duty to vote for the Amendment.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

explained that what he had stated to his hon. Friend was that if the first clause was generally dissented from by the House he was not anxious to press it, and that in such case the clause might be entirely dissevered from the remainder of the Bill.

MR. HORSFALL

said, he had certainly taken a different view of the conversation. His hon. and learned Friend stated that it was not his intention to move the first clause; whereupon he (Mr. Horsfall) observed, "Then it becomes a mere Weights and Measures Bill, to which I have not the slightest objection." If, then, his hon. and learned Friend pressed the first clause he should certainly give his support to the Amendment. If, on the other hand, he consented to strike out the clause he would as cordially give his vote in favour of the remaining portion of the Bill, which he considered to be most essential for the regulation of the weights and measures of the country.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

suggested that advantage should be taken of the present Bill to vest the appointment of inspectors in the magistrates and council of each borough.

MR. HUNT

said, they could hardly expect at that period of the Session to decide upon the relative merits of weight and measure without a Select Committee to inquire into the subject. As the only point of difference seemed to be upon the first clause he would suggest to his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Locke) that he should consent to strike out that clause in Committee on the Bill, upon the understanding that the second reading should now be agreed to.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

also recommended his hon. and learned Friend to adopt this course. He thought there would then be no objection to the second reading. He hoped, however, that his hon? and learned Friend would give an undertaking to bring in next Session a Bill for the purpose of carrying out the object of the first clause, with a view to its being referred to a Select Committee.

MR. BALL

said, that if the first clause were withdrawn the Bill would be useless, for that clause embodied the whole spirit of the measure.

MR. FINLAY

thought it would be best to refer the measure to a Select Committee.

MR. HENLEY

expressed the hope that the hon. and learned Member would consent to withdraw the first clause. The subject was one upon which great difference of opinion prevailed, and he thought it would be well if it were thoroughly investigated before a Select Committee. With regard to the other clauses of the Bill he approved generally of their principle, though they were at the same time susceptible of modification and improvement.

MR. G. CLIVE

said, it was the opinion of the Government that the Bill should not be gone into, so far as the first clause was concerned, at any rate during the present Session. He had always understood his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Locke) in the sense in which he had spoken that day; and if he would agree to expunge the first clause in Committee he would support the second reading of the Bill. One or two of the other clauses required modification; but that was a question for the Committee.

MR. BASS

said, that the advocates of weights on the one hand and the advocates of measures on the other were so nearly divided in that House, that he did not look forward with any confidence to such a measure as the present being passed in consequence of the appointment of a Committee next year. He did not think that the proposed Committee would be able to adjust their differences, nor did he believe that any more important or convincing evidence would be obtained by such a Committee than had been supplied by the Committee which sat upon the subject in the year 1834.

CAPTAIN LEICESTER VERNON

, as a representative of a corn-growing county, begged to say one word upon the question which had arisen as between selling by weight and selling by measure. That question had been agitated at every fair and market in Berkshire, and by visiting those fairs and markets he had been enabled to ascertain what was the general feeling, whether in favour of weight or measure; and he must say that nine-tenths of the dealers in corn in that county were undoubtedly in favour of selling by measure. They said that if the object in view were the protection of the ignorant, then the ignorant would be better protected by the Imperial bushel than by weight, for if they bought by measure they would have the additional protection of weight, whereas if they bought by weight they could have no additional protection from measure.

MR. M'CANN

said, that in The Times of Monday there was the report of sixteen market towns, out of which twelve had adopted uniformly and without pressure the mode of selling by weight. In London offers among the dealers were made on the principle of so many pounds to the bushel, while in Ireland they knew nothing about measure; the circulars always stated the number of pounds weight which would be given. He had purchased this year two cargoes of wheat which were sold and delivered to him at the rate of 5041bs a quarter. In Liverpool, in Glasgow, and universally in Ireland, nothing whatever was heard about measure in the sale of corn. If this matter were left to itself it would turn out that in a few months there would be no corn whatever sold except by weight. At the present moment he was told that the horsekeepers of London invariably purchased oats at 40lb. weight for the bushel, and at 320lb. weight for the quarter, without any reference whatever to the bushel of measure. He wished that grain should be sold by the pound weight and its multiples, because that was a progressive system adopted by seven-tenths of the British empire, while the system of measurement was a retrogressive one. He had withdrawn the Bill which he had introduced, believing that a Committee was necessary, and seeing that there was no time for inquiry this year; but he strongly advocated a uniform system, this being the only country in Europe in which there was no uniformity in the sale of the article of food.

MR. ADDERLEY

hoped that the hon. and learned Gentleman would consent to withdraw not only the first clause, but the Bill altogether. A legitimate subject for legislation might be found in the present ambiguous use of the terms "bushel" and "pound," and an attempt might very properly be made to enact that the bushel in use should everywhere mean a definite measure and a pound a definite weight. He was sure the hon. and learned Gentleman would best reach his object by withdrawing the present measure and introducing a new one free from the defects of the present one in the course of the next Session.

MR. BRADY

did not see what was the use of reading this Bill a second time if the first clause was afterwards to be withdrawn. He knew that the Bill would prove injurious to the people of Ireland, because there com was universally sold by weight, and even in this country purchasers judged of the value of corn by its weight, though nominally they bought by measure. He hoped the hon. and learned Member would withdraw his Bill.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

said, that it would be perfectly easy to withdraw the first clause, and pass the rest of the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman wished him (Mr. Locke) to introduce a Bill for enforcing the use of the Imperial measure throughout the country, he could only say he must decline to attempt such a task. The hon. Gentleman who undertook it would next have the bottle question about his ears, he would then be assailed by the fruiterers with their fruit meters, and he questioned whether he would ever enjoy a quiet night afterwards. Another hon. Gentleman had argued entirely in his (Mr. Locke's) favour. All he contended for was, that corn should be sold by the quarter, consisting of bushels each weighing 631bs. If the hon. Gentleman would consent to the second reading, he (Mr. Locke) would undertake to withdraw the first clause in Committee.

MR. CAIRD

said, he would withdraw his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read 2°, and committed for Tuesday next.