HC Deb 15 July 1859 vol 154 cc1333-58

(14.) £657,155 Customs Department.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he wished to know how it was that the Estimates, as issued in March this year, showed a decrease on the whole amount £4,700,000 in comparison with those of last year of about £100,000, and the Estimates issued in June showed an increase of £16,000? He also wished to know whether, notwithstanding the change made in the theory of these departments, according to which the whole produce of the revenue departments was to go into the Exchequer, the salaries and expenses were not in fact paid by the departments themselves before the money came into the Exchequer? It was taking a great responsibility upon themselves to pay so large a sum of money without the vote of the House of Commons.

MR. LAING

stated that the object of the change referred to was to bring this money more within the control of the House. No doubt the salaries were paid as the year proceeded, but then the House could check the repetition of anything it disapproved of in a future year. As to; difference of amount exhibited in the Estimates, he could only say that the Estimates of March and June were both produced by the late Government. It would be seen that the increase was accounted for under each head. Under (he head of Customs there was an increase of £7,800 upon an expenditure of £849,000. The principal increase had been in the Post Office Department, amounting to £25,000, which was chiefly owing to the increase of business and a slight addition to the wages of the letter-carriers. There was £9,000 for official postages, arising from an accidental increase of business.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he considered that the giving of these amounts in the Estimates was one of the most important reforms of modern times. Formerly these charges were deducted from the amount raised, and thus they were kept entirely out of the sight of the House. He thought that the civil service estimates ought not to be proceeded with, because they were only just in the hands of Members. He had had no time at all to consider them.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, that he found two Estimates both professing to give the amount of the salaries and expenses of the Post-office department for the financial year ending March, 1859. The one was dated in March, and the other in June. The former gave a relative decrease in the amount of the salaries in the Post Office of £103,000 as compared with the amount of the previous year; while the latter gave an increase of £25,000.

MR. LAING

said, he could only repeat that the estimates now before the House were the final estimates furnished by the Post Office, and adopted by his predecessor. All the items were given in great detail, so as to afford every information which any hon. Gentleman could require.

MR. DUNLOP

said, he wished to call attention to the fact that certain officers belonging to the Customs in the Clyde ports were paid at a lower rate than the same class in Dublin, Bristol, and other places.

MR. LAING

assured his hon. and learned Friend that he would cause the matter to which he had referred to be properly inquired into.

Vote agreed to, as were also the following:—

(15.) £1,049,864 Inland Revenue Department.

(16.) £1,551,213 Post Office.

(17.) £356,221 Superannuations.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he must protest against these enormous Votes being hurried through Committee in order that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might make his financial statement on Monday. He ventured to say that no Member of the House had had time to examine any one of these Votes, which were not delivered till Wednesday last. His time had been wholly occupied in examining the thousands of items in the Army and Navy Estimates. He would move that the Chairman report progress.

MR. FITZROY

said, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would not persevere in that Motion. These Estimates were ready for delivery on Saturday last. No new sums were asked for any considerable works. These were merely commonplace Estimates, and, as the Session was so far advanced, and hon. Members had had sufficient opportunity of ascertaining the character of the Estimates, he thought they ought to be passed without delay.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, these Estimates, during the administration of the late Duke of Wellington, amounted to no more than £2,000,000. They had since gone on increasing year after year till they were now between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000. He required time to examine them, and should persist in his Motion.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had appealed to them not to make long speeches on the Army and Navy Estimates, and he had thereby led many hon. Members to believe that the Civil Service Estimates would not be taken.

SIR JOSEPH PAXTON

said, that several hon. Members he knew had left the House believing that these Estimates would not be taken, in consequence of the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if the Naval and Military Estimates were passed, he would make his financial statement on Monday. he intended to call attention to some of the Civil Service Estimates, but he was not prepared to do so, as he had only learnt within the last quarter of an hour that they were to be proposed.

MR. POLLARD URQUHART

said, he thought that the period of the Session precluded anything like a careful examination of these Estimates this year. Perhaps the better way would be to let them pass, and defer examination until similar Estimates were proposed next year.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, there was no disposition on the part of the Government to press anything contrary to agreement. The Miscellaneous Estimates contained a great number of items, some of which no doubt the hon. Member for Lambeth would wish to examine in detail, but there were many without variation from former Votes, and surely they might make some progress, postponing those which his hon. Friend wished to examine with minuteness and care, and taking those only upon which no difference of opinion was likely to arise. Monday would be occupied by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and if they could make some progress it would be very desirable.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, it was not voting money, it was throwing it away, if the House were to be forced to go on; and what he could do he should do to prevent it. The first Vote, that for the royal palaces, was most important and contained some very extravagant items, which he intended to oppose.

MR. MACKIE

said, he should be very sorry if the Government insisted on proceeding.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

suggested that they should read over the Votes, and withdraw those to which there was objection, or upon which hon. Members might wish to make detailed observations.

MR. WILSON

said, these Estimates were usually commenced on the first meeting of the House after Easter. It was now the 16th of July. If they did not go on they would find three weeks hence that, instead of having got through the seven books, they would only have got through three, and the other four would have to be hurried over at morning sittings, and when many hon. Members had left town.

SIR JOSEPH PAXTON

observed that he was satisfied with the suggestion of the noble Lord, and he would appeal to the hon. Member for Lambeth to withdraw his Motion.

MR. DODSON

said, he did not quite understand the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson), that they were to hurry on now, lest they should have to hurry on three weeks hence, because he thought the objection was to the Estimates being hurried through the House at all. He was, however, content to accept the noble Lord's first proposition, to pass over Votes to which there were objections, taking only those of an ordinary nature which did not show an increase.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he did not know what the Votes were, nor did the noble Lord himself. The Votes were the Votes prepared by the late Government, and it was a farce to pass them in this way. He was in the habit of comparing each Vote with the same of several preceding years, and it was only by these means that he could arrive at a conclusion whether they were reasonable or extravagant.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that he did not pretend to say that he had looked over the Estimates, but his right hon. Friend and his hon. Friends on the Treasury bench were quite prepared to give every explanation. His hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth presented to the Government a rather awful prospect. If he were to be allowed the time necessary for him to get through seven or eight volumes of these Votes, and compare the items with the corresponding items for six or seven years past, they would not be finished until the middle of September. His hon. Friend had better have some confidence in the Votes proposed. Since they were the Votes of two Governments he might think there was some probability, at all events, of their being correct.

SIB HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, that he had just glanced over the items. He thought some of them very objectionable, and that there was ample ground for requiring time. For instance in the Vote for Royal Palaces there was an increase this year of £3,000, one of £15,700 for Marlborough House, and in Royal Parks of £24,000. The fifth item was the vexata questio of the Houses of Parliament. Now that the Naval and Military Estimates had been taken the Chancellor of the Exchequer might proceed with the financial statement.

MR. FITZROY

said, the increase of £15,000 in the Vote for Royal Palaces was necessary to prepare Marlborough House as a fitting residence for the Prince of Wales.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report these Resolutions to the House."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 19; Noes 61: Majority 42.

(18.) £41,988, Royal Palaces.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

I beg leave to move that this House do now adjourn.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he wished his hon. Friend would not persevere in his Motion. He had no objection to postpone this Vote if desired, but the only increase in it was accounted for by the necessity of placing Marlborough House in a suitable condition to receive his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, to the expenditure for which purpose he felt assured his hon. Friend would not be disposed to object.

MR. BUTLER

said, he also would express a hope that the hon. Gentleman would not test the feeling of the Committee further. He had followed his hon. Friend into the lobby because he was left in the lurch, and because the Committee had certainly not had time to examine the Estimates; but he trusted, after having tested the feeling of the Committee, that the hon. Gentleman would now allow them to proceed.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he did not know what his hon. Friend meant by observing that he had been left in the lurch. He had taken the course which he adopted simply with the view to discharge his duty to his constituents, whose pockets he had been sent to that House to protect.

MR. BUTLER

said, he had a full appreciation of the exertions of the hon. Gentleman, but then it was quite true that he had been left in the lurch, inasmuch as he had been supported by only nineteen Members in the division which had just taken place.

MR. BALL

said, he trusted the House, taking into consideration the present period of the Session, would not fritter any further time away, but would proceed with the Estimates.

Vote agreed to, as were also:—

(19.) £82,740, Public Buildings, and

(20.) £18,000, Furniture for Public Departments.

(21.) £58,525, New Houses of Parliament.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he wished to ask for some explanation in regard to this Vote, inasmuch as the Committee were told on the last occasion of a Vote being taken for the new Houses of Parliament that that would be the last occasion on which it would be applied for. Was there still to be an annual demand under this head?

MR. FITZROY

said, it would be seen on looking through the accounts that no new works whatever had been undertaken, or were contemplated, in connection with the Houses of Parliament. The two items of £4,000 for the completion of the western front of the clock tower, and £2,500 for expenses in connection with hanging the bells and fixing the clock, had been omitted from the accounts of last year, in which they ought to have been set down, as was stated by the Member for North Leicestershire at that time. He pledged himself that so far as he was concerned no new works were authorized without the sanction of Parliament; but there were certain necessary expenses for maintaining the edifice, which, though insignificant in themselves, presented a considerable amount in the aggregate. He had gone through these very carefully that morning, and he found that they disclosed no charge whatever of an improper or extravagant character.

MR. BALL

asked if £6,500 was required for the clock?

MR. FITZROY

said, that £4,000 of the Vote was for the tower.

MR. BALL

said, that they had been watching the clock anxiously for months. Sometimes it went, and sometimes it was still; sometimes it struck, and sometimes it refused. He wished to know if this Vote would complete the works?

MR. FITZROY

said, the item of £4,000 to which he had alluded had nothing to do with the reception of the clock, but was to coyer the expense of completing the western front of the clock-tower, which had been left unfinished on the supposition that a wing corresponding to that at the other end would be erected, but the plan had now been abandoned. Hon. Gentlemen would see an item of £1,000 which was asked for on account of the clock, and, so far as he could ascertain, no further Vote would be requisite. Two hands were about to be substituted for those which were too heavy to go, but the cost of this alteration would be covered by the proceeds of the gunmetal of the discarded hands.

MR. AYRTON

said, he wished to call attention to the outrageous manner in which the ventilation of the building was conducted. Frequently when the House was very warm cold air was pumped in at the feet of the hon. Members, the effect of which was to drive the blood to their heads, and to produce those injurious effects which were so constantly complained of and which had often compelled him and others to leave the House. Then, recently, the most abominable odours had been pumped in through the holes and slits at their feet. The smell of the chloride of lime which was used was pleasant enough; but at other times the uncorrected atmosphere of the Thames was wafted through the floor, and then the effect was dreadful indeed. When they were paying £4,000 or £5,000 annually for what was called ventilation, they had, he considered, a right to expect that matters would be conducted in a more satisfactory manner. The fact was that the whole of the arrangements connected with the House were of the most incompetent and extravagant character. For instance, an enormous sum was wasted above their heads in forcing light through plate glass, whereas one-third of that light would be sufficient for the House if it were not placed outside the glass. This extravagant arrangement tended merely to gratify some one's caprice. But from beginning to end the whole building was nothing but a piece of mediæval folly. It carried them back 400 or 500 years with no other end than to deprive them of all the advantages which science had since placed at their disposal. Instead of ample light there was obscure glass, in order to imitate a period when the manufacture of glass was in its infancy; and although our manufacturers now produced the most beautiful crystal, the House was full of little trumpery pieces of glass a few inches square, inserted in lead casing, and dignified by the name of windows. What could have possessed the mind of any man, or any set of men, to insist that everything about the Houses of Parliament should accord with the ignorance of some hundreds of years ago, rather than with the advanced intelligence of to-day! And this was called the perfection of art! Why, ornaments of the most trumpery kind stared you in the face at every turn. Look at the absurd paintings within the House, which led many Members to attend very little to what was being done, while some could hardly rise to speak without having their thoughts distracted by the lions and the dragons, and the rest of it. This trumpery was repeated from one end of the building to the other. If some man at Birmingham had contracted to erect the Palace, one could have understood his reasons for casting the portcullis and the Tudor rose by the dozen, and for sticking them together afterwards, in all parts of the buildings; but that men should carve stone after stone with a repetition of the same design, that they should scribble the history of England in writing which nobody could read, so that the very policemen on duty had to say, "You must turn the other way, Sir, to look at that," passed all comprehension. Yet this was called decoration! It was a disgrace to the country to have erected such a building at all, and the ornamentation exhibited such an utter poverty of sentiment that if the matter had been left to a parcel of schoolboys they could not have devised anything more contemptible. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not sanction any further outlay on the absurdities that were called mediaeval decorations, but that if they were to have decorations these would be characterized by true art, and that the walls would be properly painted, not in an equivocal manner between oil and scene painting, but in a style that would be creditable to the taste of this country, and he might add of Europe. He hoped likewise that if there was to be artificial ventilation it would be properly carried out, and that the air supplied would be, at least at a proper temperature.

SIR HARRY VERNEY

said, he was a member of the Committee originally appointed to consider the question of a site for the Houses of Parliament, and that Carleton Terrace was the locality to which their attention was first directed. He added that, after the present site had been decided on, he had heard it said on high authority that one reason assigned for fixing it there was that of the facilities for escape which the river Thames would afford to Members in case such a necessity should ever arise. With regard to the mode of ventilation, he himself kept a pair of worsted stockings and gaiters for wear in the House, in order to protect his feet from the cold air.

MR. CAYLEY

said, that the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) complained of the ventilation of the house. That gentleman was not a Member of the House before it was altered. He (Mr. Cayley) remembered when gentlemen complained of cold to their heads instead of their feet, and when the gas was under the House and not out of it. He thought one of the greatest improvements in the House was the putting the lights outside. The hon. Gentleman complained of the foul air of the House, but he would say with the venerable Mrs. Glasse, "first catch your hare"—you must first catch good air before you could use it for the House, and you might get good air if the atmosphere was not polluted by the Thames. Unless the hon. Gentleman would provide them with fresh air, he defied Mr. Gurney or any one else to procure for the House pure air out of an impure atmosphere. The ventilation of the House was as good as it could be with the materials Mr. Gurney had at his disposal. The hon. Gentleman and his constituents were great economists, and he supposed next they would propose to pull down the Houses of Parliament and build them up again.

LORD FERMOY

said, he remembered the different systems of lighting tried in the old Houses of Parliament. At one period it was lighted with gas, at another with lamps. He agreed in thinking that the present was a greatly improved method. The ventilation also, though it was still far from perfection, he believed to be much better than at a period when it was much more talked about. His object in rising, however, was to ask that some explanation might be given of an item of £7,500 for "indurating the stone of the Houses of Parliament," which he noticed in the accounts. He remembered that many years ago great trouble had been taken in choosing the stone for the House; Sir C. Barry, and a Committee under his directions, had examined every kind of stone in the kingdom, and had selected that of which the building was composed as the most durable. It now, however, turned out that they had built the edifice of rotten stone, and they had to pay for patching it up. He wanted to know what means were to be taken for indurating the stone. Would this sum of £7,000 be required every year? If so, one way, and the best in his opinion, to prevent the stone from decay would be to use the cement which had been applied to some parts of the building.

MR. FITZROY

said, he hoped that the charge of £7,000 for indurating the stone would not prove a permanent one. This unfortunately was no new subject. From some cause or other—either from the effects of the London atmosphere or from some inherent reason—the stone of which the Houses were built indicated a tendency to decay. That was particularly the case with parts of the building more exposed to the frost and wet than others. In more sheltered situations it did not show the same signs of decay. Various means had been tried to arrest that unfortunate tendency—one process, in particular, which had been invented by a Hungarian, who did not choose to inform the public of what the substance used by him was composed. A gentleman named Ransome had also been permitted to apply a process, well-known, to several parts of the building, and his (Mr. Ransome's) idea was that if that process were properly carried out it would answer the end in view. The stone of which the Houses of Parliament was built had been affected either by the London atmosphere or some other cause, and was rapidly crumbling, especially where it was exposed first to the action of wet and then of frost. Different methods had been tried to stop it, and the process which promised best was one invented by a Hungarian named Sczeroni. It might be satisfactory to the house to know that it was not intended to expend the sum voted. Experiments had been made, and the process invented by Mr. Ransome had been applied to several parts of the building. The opinion of those who had examined the stone after some time had elapsed, however, was not so favourable to his plan. It was thought likely to destroy all the chiselling of the stone work, and give the House the appearance of a painted building. Hon. Members might judge for themselves by looking over the Speaker's Court, which had been subjected to the Hungarian's process. It might be satisfactory to hon. Members, however, to know that it was not intended to expend the sum voted for the purpose without experiments. The matter remained in doubt when he (Mr. FitzRoy) acceded to the office he now held, and the question was put to the Treasury whether they would sanction a reference to some high scientific authority, with the view to ascertain, if possible, the cause of the decay, and some effectual remedy against the evil. The result had been a reference to Mr. Faraday, who with that high sense of generosity and honour which always distinguished him, said he could not think of acting professionally in the matter, or of accepting any remuneration, but that he would give the best opinion he could upon the subject. That gentleman spent some hours in examining the stone in different parts of the building, and as a result of his advice a portion of the building had been set apart under circumstances precisely similar for a trial of the processes of the two gentlemen whose names he (Mr. FitzRoy) had mentioned. Time alone, however, could decide the question; and it was under those circumstances that the Government had asked for the Vote to which the noble Lord (Lord Fermoy) had taken exception, on the assumption that the Hungarian process could be applied to the whole building. It was the most expensive. With reference to what had been said by the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), he had to say that he (Mr. FitzRoy) had nothing to do with the building of the Houses of Parliament or their decoration. With regard to ventilation, that was a difficult subject, and he believed that the plan of Mr. Goldsworthy Gurney was the best. It was difficult to obtain an equal temperature in the House towards morning, which was, he believed, the time that hon. Members suffered most from the ventilation; for, perhaps, after a debate in a full house of 400 Members, most of them streamed out, and that necessarily created a great change in the temperature. It was impossible that the most scientific ventilation could be complete, and he believed that Mr. G. Gurney did the best he could.

SIR BROOK BRIDGES

said, much had been said about fresh air. Would they allow him to suggest that the ventilation in the lobbies would be greatly improved if one or two of the windows were made to open.

SIR ANDREW AGNEW

begged to ask whether Sir G. Hayter's picture of the Meeting of the House after the first Reform Bill had been purchased, and if there was an estimate for it.

MR. FITZROY

said, he could not inform the hon. Gentleman. He had nothing to do with the pictures in the building.

MR. TITE

said, that the art decoration of the building was not in the hands of the architect, but of the Art Committee. He did not consider that the character given of the pictures by the hon. Member (Mr. Ayrton) was a just one. The artists had, he thought, succeeded very well in the frescoes; and frescoes were more permanent and durable than oil paintings when exposed to the atmosphere of London. So far as he had observed, all artificial systems of ventilation were a failure. Whether you had to ventilate a large room or a House of Parliament, the best way was to open a window. There was, however, a difficulty in opening the windows in the neighbourhood of the Thames. To that a remedy was being applied. He might state incidentally that 100 tons of lime were now poured every day into the Thames, and he was assured that the influence of this supply would be found very beneficial upon the river. When Mr. Gurney was able to open the windows on the side next to the Thames, a great improvement in the ventilation would be experienced. With the exception of Portland stone, almost all the stone used for building in the metropolis was subject to decay. It would be a most lamentable thing, in his opinion, if cement were had recourse to for the purpose of re- pairing the damage done to the surface of the stone by the atmosphere. The subject could not be in better hands than Dr. Faraday's, and no doubt under his care the best chemical protection would be adopted to prevent decay. He believed that Mr. Ransome's process was very moderate in point of expense, and that it would answer the purpose. The stone used was magnesian limestone, while the atmosphere of London was impregnated with sulphur and sulphuric acid, which was produced by the use of coal, but he believed a remedy might be found, and the decay of the stone arrested.

MR. AYRTON

said, that there was quite sufficient space in the middle of the floor for the purposes of ventilation with- out bringing the cold air into the House under hon. Members' feet. The present state of the Thames had been brought about by the Government and the House of Commons, and the inhabitants of the 'metropolis had had nothing to do with it. He did not object to the House being illuminated from the ceiling, but it was absurd to use glass so opaque that the light could; scarcely penetrate through it.

MR. J. H. GURNEY

observed, that seeing a Vote of £4,000 for frescoes in the Estimates, he wished to remark that many of those in the upper lobby showed signs of injury from the dampness of the walls. Some means ought to be adopted to pre- vent the recurrence of similar injuries.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he had paid some attention to the subject of ventilation, and the ventilation of that House especially, and he found that great inconvenience arose from the want of a sufficient supply of air. In the House of Lords there were sixteen different doors upon the basement storey, while in the House of Commons there was but one door on the same storey. The result was that when it was heated a strong supply of artificial cold air was forced in, which caused a great alternation of heat and cold in the temperature. The lobby was not ventilated in the same manner as the House, and the air there was easily heated and became oppressive. In order to render the ventilation of the House perfect, a considerable further outlay was necessary. With regard to the material of the building, there seemed some fatality about our modern public buildings—St. Paul's, the towers of Westminster Abbey, and Somerset House, were built of the bright and cheerful Portland stone, and they had remained for years untouched by decay; and yet with that before their eyes, they had taken an inferior stone for that building. He believed all palliatives for arresting the course of the decay would fail, and he hoped it would be laid down as a rule that no public building in the metropolis should be built of anything but Portland stone.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, he believed that the most efficient way of ventilating the House was that which they all adopted in ventilating a bed-room—namely, opening a window.

LORD FERMOY

said, that with regard to preventing the decay of the stone, it was of course a mere matter of experiment, He suggested that there was no necessity to vote the whole of the £7,000 until the experiments had been made.

MR. FITZROY

said, that the sum which he asked for was only sufficient to cover that portion of the stone which immediately required covering in case the experiment succeeded. Besides, every experiment must be made upon a sufficiently extended scale to afford any test.

MR. PEASE

said, he wished to refer to the difficulty of hearing that hon. Members experienced in the House. In some positions hon. Members were completely debarred from knowing what was going on. Some of them came hundreds of miles to attend the House. They could not all sit near the officials and those who did not could hear nothing that they said. It was strange that those who designed that House should have ignored the excellent buildings in America, and upon the Continent for Legislative Assemblies. He wished to know whether the account with Sir Charles Barry was closed?

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS

said, that as they were talking about the Houses of Parliament, he would beg leave to ask, to whom they were indebted for the funeral notes which every hour struck upon the ear of the House? He hoped that the First Commissioner of Works, or Mr. Denison, or Sir Charles Barry, or whoever it was that was responsible, would try to make some alteration in the tone of the bell. It was too bad that the Members of that House and the people should be condemned from hour to hour to hear that dreadful noise, a noise which they could only expect to hear when the great bell of St. Paul's was tolled on the death of a member of the Royal Family.

MR. FITZROY

said, the account with Sir Charles Barry could not be closed as long as the repairs and alterations were going on as he received a commission on them.

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMONS

observed, that the right hon. Gentleman had not given an answer with regard to the clock bell.

MR. FITZROY

said, he believed the bell was constructed with the greatest possible care by a gentleman who was supposed to understand the manufacture of bells better than any man in England. The combination of the metal was such as was calculated to produce the most harmonious tones. He was not a judge as to whether it had had that effect, but if the sound were an infliction, he was afraid they were likely to remain under it for a considerable time.

MR. HANKEY

asked, whether there was any chance of the bell sounding more like ordinary bells. At present it inflicted great annoyance upon the public and the House. He wished to know who was responsible?

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, he thought there was no hope that the bell would ever give forth any other sound, but he would suggest that a compromise should be made. It was said the other day that two faces of the clock would not go. Why should not an arrangement be made, that all the faces of the clock should tell the hour, and the horrible tolling should cease.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes.

(22.) £19,130, Probate Court and District Registries.

(23.) £5,390, Embassy Houses, &c, Abroad.

(24.) £5,500,New Consular Offices, &c, at Constantinople.

Motion made, and Question proposed,— That a sum, not exceeding £174,000, be granted to Her Majesty, towards defraying the Expense of constructing certain Harbours of Refuge, to the 31st day of March, 1860.

MR. BAXTER

suggested that the Vote should be postponed, as many hon. Gentlemen who had paid great attention to the subject of harbours of refuge were not in their places.

MR. BLACKBURN

remarked, that an additional reason for the postponement of the Vote was, that certain returns relative to the subject were not yet before the House. It certainly was an odd way of proceeding, to vote money and then to get an explanation of the purposes to which it was to be applied.

MR. PEASE

said, he also should support the adjournment, as he had been informed by an eminent engineer, that the expenditure on Alderney Harbour was not justifiable.

MR. DODSON

said, he should support the Vote. It was important that the works at Dovor should not be interrupted, he-cause, if they were stopped, all the money hitherto spent would be wasted.

MR. WARRE

said, he must express a strong opinion that these harbours of refuge were among those objects of permanent utility and necessity which demanded the attention of every Government. He hoped they would soon be extended to the eastern coast.

MR. NICOL

said, that by the construction of the pier at Dovor, troops taken down by railway might be embarked on board ship without the intervention of any boats. So far as the works had gone, they had completely fulfilled the object in view, and he thought it of the utmost importance that they should be carried on rapidly and to completion.

MR. MONSELL

said, the request of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) seemed to him to be a reasonable one; it was that the Vote should be postponed till they had further information. The original estimate for the harbour of Alderney was £600,000, but last year they were told that an alteration was proposed in the plan, which would make it cost £1,300,000. The Committee did not know which plan had been decided on; and it was therefore only reasonable that there should be some delay until they had had information laid before them on this important subject. At the same time he would observe, that there was the greatest difference of opinion among naval officers of the highest authority as to the value of these works, and he should, therefore, have great pleasure in supporting the proposition of his hon. Friend.

MR. LAING

said, he should be able to show the Committee that the Vote did not involve any of those large questions which would necessitate the notice required by his hon. Friend. The Votes which stood on the Estimates were not for new contracts, but were simply for the continuation of works that had already been largely carried out, and were in some instances nearly completed. The first was for the formation of a large jetty, stretching in the sea at Dovor, at an estimated cost of £650,000, and on which already a sum of £400,000 had been spent. That jetty, he should re- mark, formed no part of the large scheme for the great harbour of refuge that was estimated at £2,500,000. The great object of the present scheme was to have a station alongside of which large men-of-war could take in their stores and coals, and embark troops. The Admiralty considered that to be a work of the greatest importance. The works themselves were being rapidly completed, and the Vote now asked was only £34,000. The works at Alderney had been under the consideration of two successive Boards of Admiralty. The plan approved by the present Secretary for India (Sir Charles Wood), when he was at the Admiralty, involved an expenditure of £1,300,000, and the modifications of that system sanctioned by the late Board of Admiralty would have increased that expenditure by some £30,000 or £40,000. The expenditure would substantially be about £1,300,000. Upwards of £700,000 had been already expended upon these works, which could not be suspended without great inconvenience. The total Estimate for the habour at Portland was £932,000, of which £813,000 had been expended, so that the Vote now asked for was merely a Vote for the completion of the works. That being the case, he hoped the explanation would be satisfactory to the Committee, and that there would be no further opposition to the Vote.

SIR WILLIAM MILES

observed, that the suggestion that the Government should postpone this Vote until the papers referred to in the Estimate were laid upon the table was so reasonable that he could not imagine on what ground they refused to accede to the request.

MR. BAXTER

said, the Secretary to the Treasury had merely repeated an old story, which they had often heard before. he had a most distinct recollection of hearing the late Secretary to the Treasury state to the House last year that the Government had not bound themselves to this enormous expenditure of £1,300,000, and that they would not make the contracts for Alderney without a statement to the House. The original Estimate for the works at Alderney was £600,000; £800,000 had already been expended, and they were now informed that they were committed to the expenditure of £1,300,000. They had been told on a former occasion by a gallant Officer, after £700,000 had been spent upon Alderney, that there was only room in the harbour for seven or eight ships. He believed that the works at Alderney had proved a complete failure, and in order to bring the matter to an issue, he would move the redaction of the Vote by £75,000, the amount required for the harbour in that island.

Motion made, and Question proposed,— "That the item of £75,000 for Works at Alderney be omitted from the proposed Vote."

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) had complained that the statement of the Secretary to the Treasury in defence of this Vote was merely a repetition of statements which had been previously made on the same subject; but that was an evil which could not be remedied. The hon. Gentleman might as reasonably complain that the same demonstration was given to a mathematical problem. The Government could only urge the best reasons for the construction of these harbours, which were not harbours of refuge, but military harbours, and it was impossible to invent new reasons without going beyond the verge of truth. He thought his hon. Friend (Mr. Baxter) had taken the right course to bring this question to an issue. The hon. Gentleman did not want explanation, for it had been given already, but he objected to the expenditure altogether, and the proper course was therefore to take the sense of the Committee upon the question. He (Viscount Palmerston) could only say that the construction of these harbours had been undertaken after most deliberate consideration, with the approval of the highest military and naval authorities, and after repeated discussions in that House. Large sums of money had already been spent upon the works, which were still incomplete, and if they were now suspended all the expenditure hitherto incurred would be entirely thrown away, and the country would be deprived of those military and naval advantages, most essential to the national defences, which these harbours were calculated to afford. With regard to Alderney, there could not be a more important position for the defence of this country. It might be invidious to go into that question now, but it was enough to remind hon. Gentlemen were Cherbourg was, and where Portland was. Alderney was one of the watch-towers of the country, and he thought it would be most prejudicial to the national security if these harbours were not completed as speedily as possible. It had been complained that the harbour at Alderney was not large enough, and with the view of correcting that defect his hon. Friend proposed to refuse any further grant for the works. If, however, the harbour at Alderney was not sufficiently large, it appeared to him that the better course would be to increase the Vote. He thought the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir John Pakington) would admit the importance of the harbour at Alderney, but it was, of course, for the Committee to determine whether these important works should proceed, or whether, after so much expense had been incurred for a number of years, upon the advice of men whose opinions deserved consideration, they would by stopping the works render useless everything that had been done, and deprive the country of the means of defence which these harbours were calculated to afford.

LORD LOVAINE

said, that upon investigation the late Board of Admiralty thought it advisable to propose a slight addition to the works at Alderney, and he must remind the Committee that a harbour which was not efficient was really of no value. This country must exhibit a striking spectacle to foreign nations. For ten years sums have been regularly voted for these harbours, and it had been established that they were works of necessity; yet every year Gentlemen were found doing all in their power to prevent them being made efficient. It seemed as if they delighted in undoing in one year what they had done in another.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, the objection was not to the Vote but that the Committee were called upon to vote the money without sufficient explanation.

MR. HENLEY

said, they had every year the reports of the engineers on these works, so that they were able to form an opinion as to what was going on. These reports had not been presented this year, and he did not understand why they should be asked to agree to this Vote till they had an opportunity of perusing them. The Secretary to the Treasury said there had been a modification of the Alderney Vote, but he should like to see the engineer's report on that modification. Why should the Vote not be postponed till the engineer's reports were in the hands of the Members?

VISCOUNT DUNCAN

hoped the Vote would be postponed. He was anxious, for one, to see the report of Alderney, as he had been informed that a report had been sent to the Government to the effect that if the original plan were carried out the works would be so large that we should be unable to find troops to occupy them. If the Government would not assent to postpone the Vote, he would be under the necessity of voting against it.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he held in his hand the paper containing the explanatory statements that ought to have accompanied the Estimate. It was printed, but had not been delivered. If the House should wish to see that paper before agreeing to the Vote, there could be no objection to postponing the latter.

Amendment and Motion by leave withdrawn,

(25.) £80,000, Holyhead Harbour.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

said, he wished to direct the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury to the sum of £445,000, which was put down as the cost of a breakwater and piers for the accommodation of the packets. He would find that it was contemplated to expend a sum of £20,000 for a temporary pier for the accommodation of the Irish packets between Holyhead and Dublin; but the principal sum, namely, £430,000, was for a breakwater and a permanent pier, running into deep water, and capable of receiving vessels of large size. If, however, the point of departure for the Transatlantic steamers, as seemed to be now contemplated, was to be from a port on the western coast of Ireland it would be unnecessary to construct the large permanent pier at Holyhead, and in that case the sum of £20,000, with, perhaps, some extension, would be all that it was necessary to expend for packet accommodation at that port. He was anxious to direct the attention of the Secretary to the Treasury to this matter, as it involved a very large expenditure which it was important, if possible, to diminish.

MR. LAING

said, he had seen the Report relative to this expenditure, and his most serious attention would be directed to it. He warned the House not to sanction the commencement of any work unless they were convinced it ought to he undertaken.

MR. GLYN

said, that although there had been an increased estimate for the harbour at Holyhead, the increased accommodation for the public was more than commensurate with the increased expenditure. He only wished that all the public works had been executed so well as those at Holyhead.

Vote agreed to.

(26.) £20,403. Port-Patrick Harbour.

MR. DUNLOP

observed that this sum would not make the harbour a fit harbour of refuge, and the money would be flung away. He thought the Vote should at least be postponed to enable hon. Members to read the papers on the subject, which showed that a better harbour would be found at Lock Ryan at a distance of only two miles.

SIR ANDREW AGNEW

said, he must remind the Committee that the money for a railway had been subscribed in the district, on the faith that Government would put this harbour into working order.

MR. BAXTER

said, he would move that the Chairman report progress, as he was anxious that the Government should not begin new works, of which they could not see the end. If these expenses were once begun, they might depend that additional sums would be asked for next year. Besides it was well known that Portpatrick would never make a safe harbour.

MR. LAING

said, he must admit that the faith of the Government was pledged to this Vote, as there was a bargain between the Government and the railway; that if the railway were made Government would expend £20,000 for the improvement of the harbour.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

said, he could confirm the statement of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Laing). The bargain was made by the Government preceding the last. He thought the public faith was pledged to the Vote, as the railway company had already gone to considerable expense.

MR. BAXTER

said, under those circumstances he would not press his Motion to report progress.

Vote agreed to.

(27.) £70,421, Public Works (Ireland).

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he wished to call attention to the item of £10,000 for Dublin Castle and the Phoenix Park buildings, and to express a hope that the Government would seriously consider whether Ireland could not be better and more economically governed by being treated as a part of the Imperial dominions, and by the withdrawal of the viceregal establishments.

LORD FERMOY

observed, that he did not agree with the hon. Member, as he thought it was desirable that the office of Lord Lieutenant ought to be kept up on the principle that he was opposed to the principle of centralisation.

Vote agreed to, as were also the following Votes:—

(28.) £68,959, Officers, Houses of Parliament.

(29.) £34,600, Treasury.

(30.) £17,911, Secretary of State, Home Department.

(31.) £42,800, Secretary of State, Foreign Department.

(32.) £21,178, Secretary of State, Colonial Department.

(33). £10,593, Privy Council Office.

(34.) £33,942, Committee of Privy Council for Trade.

(35.) £1,720, Lord Privy Seal.

(36.) £3,855, Civil Service Commission.

(37.) £13,762, Paymaster General.

(38.) £4,898, Comptroller General of Exchequer.

(39.) £19,746, Office of Works, &c.

(40.) £13,514, Office of Woods, &c.

(41.) £9,498, Public Records, &c.

(42.) £223,369, Poor Law.

(43.) £25,052, Mint.

(44.) £13,925, Inspectors of Factories, &c,

(45.) £3,179, Queen's Remembrancer (Scotland).

(46.) £4,431, Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.

(47.) £15,904, Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.

(48.) £5,204, Paymaster of Civil Services (Ireland).

(49.) £1,709, Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums in Ireland.

(50.) £16,105, Board of Public Works (Ireland).

(51.) £22,466, Auditing of Public Accounts.

(52.) £12,621, Copyhold, Inclosure and Tithe Commission.

(53.) £8,680, Inclosure and Drainage Acts.

(54.) £26,300, General Register Office.

(55.) £2,296, General Register Office, Dublin.

(56.) £3,302, Registrar General Edinburgh.

(57.) £10,652, National Debt Office.

(58.) £1,300, Public Works Loan Commissioners.

(59.) £670, West India Islands Relief Commissioners.

(60.) £2,642, Commissioners in Lunacy.

(61.) £723, County Roads, South Wales.

(62.) £1,128, Registrars of Friendly Societies.

(63.) £22,000, Secret Services.

(64.) £237,111, Stationery, Printing &c.

MR. WALPOLE

said, that a reduction had been effected under this head in pursuance of the recommendations of the Committee that sat on this subject. He wished to know whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman had been called to the fact that the patent of the Queen's Printer expired at the end of this year, and to ask whether the Government would be prepared to state the course they proposed to take with reference to that state of things before the prorogation?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, his attention had been called to it in connection with the other question relating to the printing of the Bible and Prayer-book, together with Acts of Parliament and Proclamations. It was probable that as regarded the printing of Acts of Parliament and the like, it would serve the ends of economy to make another arrangement than now existed with the Queen's Printer. Inasmuch as an authorized publication of the statutes was made legal evidence it was necessary that a certain copy of them should be printed in an authentic shape, and provided security were taken for that purpose the privilege of the Queen's Printer in printing the statutes need not be continued in the present form. Before the close of the Session he would endeavour to state to the House the course which the Government proposed to adopt.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman whether the same argument did not hold good as to the Bible. Why should it be thought that monopoly in it contributed to cheapness?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

explained that he had stated on a former night that the cheapness at which the Bible was printed was owing not to any monopoly that was enjoyed by the Queen's Printer, but to the active competition which was carried on between the Queen's Printer and the two Universities, the effect of which was that a Bible was sold for 8d. and a copy of the New Testament for 4d.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he believed that the two objects of accuracy and cheapness, both of which were of equal importance in printing the Bible, had been attained by the active competition which existed between the Queen's Printer and the Universities; but the printing of Acts of Parliament and other public matters done by the Queen's Printer rested upon a different foundation, and there was reason to believe that they could hare Acts of Parliament if not better at least more cheaply printed under new regulations than at present.

MR. DUNLOP

said, the fact was that cheapness was never attained until the monopoly was thrown open in Scotland.

Vote agreed to, as also were the following:—

(65.) £76,750, Postage of Letters.

(66.) £31,545, Law Charges.

(67.) £150,000, Prosecutions.

Mr. HENLEY

said, he wished to ask if there was any hope of getting the accounts of counties paid up closer than they were at present, for they had now fallen three half-years in arrear.

MR. LAING

said, he understood that in some cases payment had been delayed in consequence of a Commission now sitting on the subject. It would make its report, however, in a few days, and he would then take care that the matter should be looked into.

MR. WILSON

said, that some years ago abuses did exist on the subject, but inquiry had taken place, and although it had not been found necessary to introduce a new system, the accounts were now subjected to examination, and the charges were regulated under the authority of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

said, that the system had been the cause of considerable incovenience, but it had been modified, and he hoped that when the arrears were wiped out things would go on in a regular way.

Vote agreed to.

(68.) £164,275, Police (Counties and Boroughs) and Police in Scotland.

SIR WILLIAM MILES

suggested that the number of men should be stated.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, it would appear in the report.

Vote agreed to, as were also the following Votes:—

(69.) £1,500, Crown Office, Queen's Bench.

(70.) £4,300, Registrar of Admiralty and Admiralty Court (Dublin).

(71.) £5,176, Insolvent Debtors' Court.

(72.) £22,740. Court of Probate and Divorce and Matrimonial Causes.

MR. HADFIELD

inquired whether credit was given to the public as the lives of those who had compensation fell in.

MR. LAING

explained that this Vote did not include any amount for compensation, but was for the current expenses only.

MR. AYRTON

said, he hoped the Government would give some assurance that steps would be taken to clear off the great increase of causes in this Court.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that the subject had occupied the attention of the Government, and that a measure would in all probability be introduced on the subject this Session for the purpose of increasing the judicial strength of the Court.

Vote agreed to.

(73.) Motion made, and Question proposed,— That a sum, not exceeding £126,150, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Salaries and Expenses of the County Courts, to the 31st day of March, 1860.

VISCOUNT DUNCAN

said, he should move that the Vote be diminished by £85,000, the amount alloted for building and providing court-houses, offices, stationery, and printing. The ground upon which he did this was, that there was no provision for finding court-houses for the Sheriffs' Courts of Scotland, and this he thought was unfair, when such advantages were afforded in England.

Motion made, and Question proposed,— That the sum of £85,000, on account of the Expense of building and providing Court Houses, Offices, Stationery, Printing, &c, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

MR. LAING

said, the Vote in question was necessary under an Act of Parliament; and, as to the courts in Scotland, the Lord Advocate would take the matter into consideration.

MR. DUNLOP

said, that the subject had been under consideration for years, and that the Government should be prepared to act in the matter.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, the business in the Sheriffs' Courts was formerly conducted by pleadings, but, as the evidence was now given orally, larger accommodation was required. The question as to the funds out of which that accommodation should be provided was under the consideration of the Government.

MR. BAXTER

said, he thought the Government ought to give a distinct pledge that early next Session they would bring in a Bill to put Scotland exactly on the same footing as England in this respect.

MR. HASSARD

said, he objected to the entire Vote. The expenses of the Civil Bills Courts in Ireland were paid either by the suitors or the counties. The construction of the buildings was paid for out of the county-rates.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, the question raised by the noble Lord (Viscount Duncan) would be considered by Government, and an attempt made to bring about an equitable adjustment between the two countries.

VISCOUNT DUNCAN

, said he was willing to withdraw his Motion if the Government would give an assurance that a Bill on the subject should be brought in.

MR. STEUART

said, he hoped that when the question of building the Sheriffs' Courts came before the House, some endeavour would be made to decrease the judicial expenses in Scotland, which comparatively were greater than in England.

MR. CUMMING BRUCE

advised the noble Lord, after the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to withdraw his Motion.

Motion by leave withdrawn.

MR. HENLEY

asked whether the fees payable in the County Courts were paid in money or in stamps, and suggested that the latter was the preferable mode.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

replied that he would obtain information, and give an answer to the question on a future day.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

The following Votes were agreed to:—

(74.) £14,130, Police Courts.

(75.) £90,610, Metropolitan Police.

(76.) £2,500, Queen's Prison.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.