HC Deb 02 August 1859 vol 155 cc850-4

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 agreed to.

MR. HOWES

rose to move that the following clause be inserted after Clause 1:— That Chief Constables appointed and to be appointed in counties, under the Acts of the 2nd & 3rd of Vict., c. 93; the 3rd and 4th of Vict., c. 88; and the 19th & 20th of Vict., c. 69, shall be styled County Commissioners of Police.

MR. G. CLIVE

said, he saw no reason for a change in the name; at the same time, the Government had no objection to the alteration.

MR. HOWES

said, he thought the alteration in style would avoid the great inconvenience which now prevailed, and that it would enable the county and borough police to work more in harmony together.

MR. E.P. BOUVERIE

remarked, that the change in name was a very small matter; still the name of constable was better known to the public, and constables had distinct rights and duties which should not be confounded with other names, for as Commissioners they would have no duties as such.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT

said, he thought that the object aimed at by the hon. Gentleman could be better attained simply by altering the name of "Chief Constable of Boroughs," and not attempting to change the designation of the Chief Constables of Counties to that of Commissioners of Police.

MR. HOWES

said, the reason he had moved the Amendment was to prevent the confusion and jealousies that existed between the county and borough police force.

MR. G. CLIVE

said, he had certainly received some communications showing that there was much inconvenience arising from mistakes in the opening of letters by the one force which were intended for the other.

Mr. JOHN LOCKE

said, he did not think there was much in the objection urged by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie) because there was a Commissioner and a Chief Commissioner for the City of London.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, this was not a very important question. He had received letters stating that sometimes inconvenience did occasionally arise, and it was thought by some that the heads of the county police should be called "Commissioners." By introducing that title they would not be introducing anything new, for it was now used in several cases where the parties did not hold commissions from the Crown.

MR. HENLEY

opposed the clause. It was almost absurd that the Committee should be discussing such a question. He thought it would be better to change the title of the Chief of the Borough Police to that of "Head Constable."

MR. WISE

said, the term "Commissioner" was essentially of French origin, and the term "Constable" was thoroughly English, and therefore he should vote for the latter. They ought to think more of the people and less of the wishes of the police.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, as the point involved was of no great importance, he would suggest to the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the Amendment. Although he (Sir G. Lewis) was rather favourable to the proposed alteration, nevertheless as it had provoked so many objections, it was not worth while to sacrifice more of their time by discussing the matter.

Motion negatived.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3.

SIR WILLIAM MILES

said, he wished to move the omission of the words in parenthesis in lines 13 and 14. It was his intention to move the addition of a clause, which would give effect to the alteration he proposed.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he would assent to the Amendment, upon the understanding that the hon. Gentleman would move a new clause.

Clause, as amended, agreed to; as were Clauses 4 to 16 inclusive.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, he rose to move the addition of the following clause:— The high sheriff of any county may agree with the justices of the peace for such county for the employment of the police constables in lieu of javelin men at the assizes, and thereupon the chief constable, on the requisition of the high sheriff, shall place under his orders a sufficient number of such constables to keep order in and within the precinct of the Court of Assize, and upon such agreement being entered into as aforesaid, it shall be lawful for the high sheriff to discontinue the employment of javelin men. The practice which he wished to establish by this clause obtained already in Hampshire, Lincolnshire, Westmoreland, and partially in Northamptonshire, and it not only considerably diminishes the expenses of the high sheriffs, but had proved satisfactory to the judges, as well as to all persons concerned in the administration of justice at the assizes.

Clause brought up, and read 1°.

MR. WISE

said, he thought the hon. Gentleman proposed to take a very unusual course. A few hours ago the House rejected a Bill which would practically have effected to a great extent the object contemplated by this clause, and he now endeavoured to attain that object by bringing up a clause which was not at all germane to the Bill under discussion. He (Mr. Wise) thought it was not right or just to propose such a clause after the distinct pledge which had been given to the House that a Select Committee should be appointed at the commencement of next Session to inquire into the whole question of the expenses of high sheriffs.

SIR WILLIAM MILES

said, that such a proposition as was embodied in this clause had been made to the magistrates of the county he had the honour of representing (Somersetshire), and had been rejected by them. It was evident that the employment of the police in lieu of javelin-men might be suggested to courts of quarter sessions, who could deal with the question as they thought fit, and therefore he deemed this clause entirely unnecessary.

MR. HENLEY

said, he did not agree with his hon. Friend in considering the clause unnecessary, because there was an Act of Parliament in existence which required the employment of javelin-men by high sheriffs. In his opinion the clause would prove advantageous, because it would enable each county to determine for itself whether javelin-men should be employed, or whether they should he superseded by the police force.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that with reference to the observations of the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Wise), notice had certainly been given by an hon. Gentleman of his intention to move next Session for a Committee to make certain inquiries as to the office of high sheriff, but he was not aware that anything had been said on the part of the Government amounting to a pledge, or even an understanding, that such a Committee should be appointed. For his own part, he could not see that there was anything objectionable in the clause, which was merely permissive, and he apprehended that, under the existing law, chief constables would not have the power of placing the police under the orders of the high sheriffs.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the clause appeared very loosely and inaccurately worded, and would require to be very much altered even to effect the object which the hon. Gentleman had in view.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

suggested that the clause should be withdrawn, and a new clause drawn up.

MR. DEEDES

said, he thought that the clause might work inconveniently in respect to the will of the High Sheriff and the dictum of the Judge. The former might desire to get rid of the javelin-men, and thereby to save himself from what he might consider an unnecessary expense; but the latter, on the other hand, might require the observance of the usual customs in regard to the javelin men at the assizes.

Question put—"That the clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided: —Ayes 95; Noes 53: Majority 42.

Two additional clauses added.

MR. DEEDES

then moved the addition of this clause:— The chief constable of any county police force, and the watch committee of any city, borough, district, or place, is and are hereby empowered to suspend or dismiss any constable within their respective jurisdictions for misconduct or dereliction of duty; and, in case of such suspension or dismissal, all or any arrears of pay due to the said constable shall he forfeited; and the said chief constable or watch committee is and are hereby also empowered, at his or their discretion, to fine any such constable in a sum of money not exceeding one week's pay, and to reduce the said constable from a superior to an inferior rank, such fine and reduction in rank to be in addition to any other punishment to which the said constable may be liable; and all punishments, penalties, and fines, such as above enumerated, heretofore imposed or inflicted under any rules framed under and by virtue of the third section, 2 & 3 Vict., c. 93, shall be deemed to have been legally imposed or inflicted.

MR. G. CLIVE

said, he thought the clause unnecessary, inasmuch as the police authorities already possessed those powers which it was the object of the proposed clause to give them.

SIR GEORGE GREY

thought the Act passed in the 2nd & 3rd Vict. contained a provision which fully met the case which the hon. Gentleman wished to provide for.

Clause withdrawn.

Bill reported, as amended.

House resumed.