§ Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply read.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERBefore I move, Sir, that you do leave the chair, it may be convenient that I should state, for the information of those Members who are not accurately acquainted with the somewhat intricate rules of the House on the subject of money votes, what course I intend to pursue with reference to this matter. The Act of Parliament under which the Exchequer bonds which are referred to in the Resolution moved by me in Committee of Supply on Friday night were issued, contains this provision—"The principal moneys secured by such bonds shall be repaid out of such moneys as shall be provided by Parliament in that behalf." The consequence is, that the Government would not be provided with any funds to meet these £2,000,000 of Exchequer bonds without going, according to the forms of the House, through three operations—first, obtaining a Vote in 722 Committee of Supply; next a Vote in Ways and Means to cover the Vote of Supply; and, thirdly, a Ways and Means Act which would cover the Vote of Supply, and the Vote of Ways and Means. Until these three forms are gone through, it would not be competent for the Government to pay off the £2,000,000 of Exchequer bonds which fall due this year. Now, the national faith was pledged to the repayment of these bonds, and as I do not anticipate that the House will resort to the plan of meeting this obligation by means of re-borrowing, it will be necessary to provide the funds in the way I have mentioned. My statement on Friday night was made in Committee of Supply, which is contrary to the usual practice in making such statements, and I concluded by a Motion for a Vote of Supply to provide for the payment of this £2,000,000. And that, Sir, is the only Vote which I intend to propose in the present Committee of Supply. For the convenience of the House I circulated on Friday my Resolutions on the income tax, together with the scale of duties which I intended to propose on tea and sugar; but by some accident, for which I am not responsible, those Resolutions were not printed as a separate paper, but were confused with the other Votes of the day. I believe, however, that the Votes are now accurately printed. I merely mention this for the purpose of guarding the House against the supposition that it would be competent for me to move those Resolutions in Committee of Supply; they can only be moved in Committee of Ways and Means; and a Committee of Ways and Means cannot be appointed until a Vote has been taken in Committee of Supply. Whenever the House shall think fit to concur in the Resolution which I moved on Friday, it will then be competent to appoint a Committee of Ways and Means, and when that Committee is appointed, I shall be prepared to proceed with those Resolutions.
§ Moved, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
§ MR. DISRAELIIt was the common understanding, I believe, Sir, on Friday that we were to have an opportunity tonight of discussing, and, if necessary, of asking the opinion of the House on the whole tenor and scope of the financial scheme of the Government. On looking at the paper of business for to-night I observed the Resolutions to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has just alluded, 723 which, if they had been brought forward to-night—as it appeared they were to be—would have given us that opportunity; but when I came down to the House I found that the paper was changed, and though I accept, of course without the slightest hesitation, the account given by the right hon. Gentleman of the inadvertence—yet the right hon. Gentleman must feel that it has occasioned great inconvenience to the House. It appears to me extremely desirable that an early opportunity should be afforded of entering upon this discussion. I did not quite collect from the right hon. Gentleman when he proposed that that opportunity should be offered, but. Sir, tomorrow the Resolution which is about to be put in Committee of Supply will have to be reported, and I propose then, if that course should be agreeable to the House, to move a Resolution, on which I would ask the opinion of the House, which would raise the whole question of the financial scheme of the Government. With the permission of the House I will read the Resolution which I propose to move. It is as follows:—
That, in the opinion of this House, it would be expedient, before sanctioning the financial arrangements for the ensuing year, to adjust the estimated Income and Expenditure in the manner which shall appear best calculated to secure the country against the risk of a deficiency in the years 1858–9 and 1859–60, and to provide for such a balance of Revenue and Charge respectively in the year 1860 as may place it in the power of Parliament at that period, without embarrassment to the finances, altogether to remit the Income Tax.If it be agreeable to the House I shall propose this as an Amendment on the Report being brought up, and the discussion on the whole financial scheme of the Government, which might otherwise have taken place to-night, may then take place.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI only rise to say that if the right hon. Gentleman would prefer to make his Motion to-night, or any statement in Committee of Supply, I shall be perfectly ready to meet it by such explanations as the case may require.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONI apprehend, Sir, that in the event of my right hon. Friend bringing on the discussion tonight, as proposed, he would not, in point of form, have power to move the Amendment of which he has given notice.
§ MR. SPEAKERIt would not be competent for the right hon. Gentleman to move 724 such an Amendment in Committee of Supply.
MR. GLADSTONEI entirely accede to the convenience of the arrangement which has been made. I understand my right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to say, that he does not propose to move any Resolution in Committee of Supply, except a Resolution with respect to the Exchequer bonds. It therefore follows that the Navy Estimates stand over to a future evening. [Sir G. GREY: No; the Navy Estimates will be moved by the First Lord of the Admiralty.] It appears to me that lies at the root of the whole matter. I shall not be prepared to assent to the Motion that you, Sir, leave the chair to go into Committee on the Navy Estimates until an opportunity has been afforded of considering fully the financial proposals of the Government. I am aware that if I sit down I have no power of rising again to address the House. I am unwilling, therefore, to lose or surrender a vantage ground until I understand from the Government what they intend to do. It appears to me that the subjects of Supply and Ways and Means are essentially connected. Her Majesty's Government with perfect propriety, yielding to the general wish of the House, have so connected them, and in the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the two subjects, contrary to practice, and on special grounds, have been placed before us together. The ordinary practice according to which the principal charges are voted before going into Committee of Ways and Means has been departed from, and, that being so, it appears to me it is a fair demand for Members to make, if they think their public duty requires them to urge such a demand, that they should have the power of discussing the question as a whole. That demand, for my own part and as an individual Member, I make with due respect and humility, but with as much urgency and conviction of duty as I ever made any demand in this House. It is, in my opinion, essential to the right discharge of our duties with regard to the finances of the country that we should have an opportunity of discussing the proposals of the Government as a whole. It is perfectly plain—beyond the possibility of dispute—that if we proceed to take a Vote on the Navy Estimates we shall lose the opportunity of an unprejudiced discussion of the whole scheme. I do not wish to detain the House with arguments on a 725 matter so plain that it does not require them; but I, for one, not knowing what may be the opinion of other hon. Members, cannot consent to your leaving the chair for the purpose of going into Committee of Supply, unless it is understood that the Resolution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is the only Resolution which is to be moved to-night.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLI only rise to say that I hope, before the House resolves into Committee of Supply, the Government will declare whether they decidedly mean to go into the Navy Estimates to-night. I own, it appears to me, that what my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford has said is very reasonable, and I cannot well conceive that going into a question of the Navy Estimates and voting several large sums, and then coming afterwards on another day to a discussion of the general expenditure of the country, can be a convenient course. It is perfectly fair for the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to move the Resolution he has prepared, and hon. Gentlemen can either assent to it or not before an opportunity is given them of expressing an opinion on the plan stated the other night; but to go into Committee on the Navy Estimates is very unreasonable, and if the Government propose such a course, I shall certainly resist it, and immediately the Committee come to that point, I shall move that the House do resume or take some other means to prevent the House coming to a vote on that subject.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid: Sir, I wish to save the House trouble, and we are ready to adopt the course which the House seems to prefer. We will not go into the Navy Estimates to-night.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee of Supply: Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid: Sir, before I proceed to offer to the Committee explanations which will have reference to the terms of the Motion which has lately been read by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, I will advert to a point mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford on Friday night, which I left unanswered. The right hon. Gentleman asked me whether I had included in the estimate which I made of taxes remitted 726 since 1853 the sum of £165,000, the loss consequent on the change of the law with reference to foreign bills of exchange. The amount I stated did include that item. There was, however, one sum, the produce of the reduction of the assessed taxes of 1854, which I have included in the taxes remitted since 1853, but inasmuch as it is quite true, as the right hon. Gentleman stated, that he announced that change in 1853, which fact I had overlooked, I ought not to have included it, and the sum I stated must be rectified by the omission of £270,000. I now come to what I understand as the material point raised by the intended Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman, as to the supposed deficiency in the revenue for two years after the ensuing year to be created by the financial arrangements submitted to the House on Friday last. I do not understand that it is alleged that the revenue estimated for the coming year, beginning the first of April next, will be deficient. If it is I will re-explain that statement; but unless it is alleged that the revenue will be insufficient to meet the estimated expenditure I will assume that there is no doubt as to the ensuing year. What I collect to be affirmed is, that the financial arrangements which I propose will leave a deficiency of revenue as compared with expenditure in the years 1858–9 and 1859–60. I believe I am correctly rendering the effect of the resolution read by the right hon. Gentleman. I hold in my hand the best estimate which I have been able to make of the revenue for those years, according to the plan which I submitted to the House on Friday. If the Committee would wish to hear the estimate of each item for those two years I will read it to them—
727 Well, now the gross expenditure for 1853–4—the year immediately preceding the war—was £55,840,000, and, therefore, according to my estimate of revenue for these two years, after discharging all liabilities, inclusive of the Exchequer bonds and Sinking Fund, there will be an excess beyond the expenditure of the last year before the war of about £3,000,000. The whole of this £3,000,000 will be applicable to the increased charge of the Army, the Navy, and the Civil Service, with the single deduction of the increased interest upon the debt which has been created during the war. These liabilities are in the nature of the repayment of principal: but there is also an augmentation of the interest upon the debt incurred during the war. The increased charge of the funded and unfunded debt beyond the charge for the year 1853–4 will be in 1858–9 £650,000, which will be reduced in 1859–60 to £510,000. There will, therefore, be a margin of £3,000,000, from which nothing is to be taken, except that payment of interest, to cover the increased expenditure of the Army, Navy, and Civil Service beyond that of the last year of the peace. The House will see that this estimate of revenue is not a sanguine estimate. I have not calculated upon any considerable increase in the indirect taxes, although when Parliament remits so large a sum as £9,000,000 of direct taxation we may, under ordinary circumstances, reasonably expect a great increase in the produce of the indirect taxation. Unless, therefore, it can be shown that there is some error in this estimate, which I believe cannot be pointed out, I have proved that I have provided a sufficient revenue for the years 1858–9 and 1859–60. That, as I understand it, is the point to which the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) is directed, and it would be, I think, more convenient to discuss that question at present, now that we are in Committee of Supply, without waiting for the Resolution or Report to be brought up.
ESTIMATED REVENUE IN 1858–9 AND 1859–60. 1858–9. 1859–60. £ £ Customs 22,350,000 22,000,000 Excise 17,450,000 17,700,000 Stamps 7,550,000 7,700,000 Land and assessed taxes 3,150,000 3,150,000 Income tax 7,150,000 7,150,000 Post Office 3,000,000 3,000,000 Crown lands 265,000 265,000 Miscellaneous 1,385,000 1,300,000 62,300,000 62,265,000 Extraordinary liabilities 3,500,000 3,500,000 Net revenue after paying off liabilities 58,800,000 58,765,000
§
Question again proposed—
That a sum, not exceeding £2,000,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to pay off and discharge Exchequer Bonds, issued under the provisions of the Act 17 Vict. c. 23, and dated the 8th day of May, 1854, which will be due and payable on the 8th day of May, 1857.
MR. GLADSTONEsaid: I entirely accede to the propriety of the Resolution which the Chancellor of the Exchequer 728 has moved. I thought it better that we should have a day to think about it, but, as far as I am concerned, I have not a word of objection to the Resolution itself, which I hope will be unanimously agreed to. The other portion of the right hon. Gentleman's speech properly belonged, I think, to the speech he delivered on Friday night, and would have been introduced into it, no doubt, but for the great circuit the right hon. Gentleman was compelled to make, and the numerous subjects which prevented him from making his Estimates for future years. While I am sorry to say I cannot accept the cheering prospect which he has held out to us for future years, yet the same consideration which led us to postpone the Vote of Friday night ought also to induce us to postpone to-night the discussion of that most important and vital portion of the question—the prospect of the balance of revenue and expenditure in the years following 1857–8. I will therefore, with the permission of the Committee, reserve altogether for another opportunity the remarks I shall have to make, when we shall be better able to do justice to a question of such vital moment.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGI see an increase in the revenue charges upon which I should like to have some explanation. They were put down at £4,215,000, for the same purposes in other years he found the amount had been £4,123,000. There appears, therefore, to be an increase of £92,000 in the collection of the revenue, besides the coast-guard service, which is transferred from that Estimate.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERThe Estimate of expenditure for the year 1857–8 is £4,215,000, but there is also to be transferred to this item for the first time the superannuation of the revenue department, which amounts to £475,000.
§ MR. MILNER GIBSONThere are two wars that we are now carrying on, and I wish to know whether the Government intend to lay upon the table the Estimate of the expenses to be incurred during the next year in the Persian war? We have the expenses of the Persian war up to the 1st April, but there is no Estimate for the future. I wish to ask whether we are to have any further estimate, and also whether there is to be any Estimate of he expenses now going on in the war with China?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERIt is not our intention to lay upon the table any estimate for the expenses of the Persian war for the year commencing on the 1st of April, for we have no data by which we can with probability conjecture what those expenses may be. The House has been already informed that negotiations are going on at Paris with the Persian Minister, and we have every reason to hope that those negotiations will prove satisfactory. If so, no expenses will be incurred beyond those connected with the expedition. The Chinese war has been called a war by the right hon. Gentleman, but no extraordinary expenditure has been incurred beyond that of the ships on the station.
§ MR. MILNER GIBSONThese wars are going on without the authority of Parliament, and without our knowing anything about them. If the right hon. Gentleman would ask for a vote of credit the question could then be raised.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERAs soon as there is any prospect of any extraordinary expenditure being required, we shall submit an Estimate to the House.
§ MR. DISRAELII have no wish to oppose the Resolution; but it would be greatly for the convenience of the House that we should come to an understanding on what day we shall discuss the whole of the financial arrangements of the Government. If on Friday the Chancellor of the Exchequer will, in Committee of Ways and Means, move his Income tax Resolutions, that will be a convenient day to those who sit on this side of the House; and I will on that day move my Resolution as an Amendment. I only wish that there should be a clear understanding on the subject.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERIt will not be competent to go into Committee of Ways and Means tomorrow, and I suppose the House would not wish to take this Committee on Wednesday. Friday is therefore the earliest day on which it is possible that these Resolutions can be taken. The Resolutions have been printed, and I shall be prepared on Friday, in Committee of Ways and Means, to move Resolutions on the income tax and on the tea and sugar duties.
§ MR. DISRAELIThen I will take that opportunity of moving the Resolution 730 that I have read as an Amendment to those Resolutions.
§ In reply to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwas understood to say that he believed about £2,000,000 of the Exchequer-bonds were held by the Savings Banks Commissioners.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ Resolution to be reported to-morrow.
§ Committee to sit again on Wednesday.
§ House resumed.