§ MR. W. WILLIAMSrose to complain of the manner in which these estimates, involving an expenditure of 2,750,000l., had been disposed of on Monday night. The Motion was one of the most important of the Session; and without any notice being given as to the intention of bringing it on, it was, as he might say, surreptitiously got through the House at nearly one o'clock in the morning. The grievance was not particularly his, as other Gentlemen, including the hon. Baronet opposite 1416 (Sir H. Willoughby), had desired to enter into a discussion on the Vote. He hoped sincerely that there would be no repetition of such unworthy haste, as the consequences might be serious to Government.
LORD SEYMOURagreed with the hon. Gentleman so far that he thought it was most desirable that the House should have the opportunity of discussing these estimates, and when they were brought on at a late hour they could not have an opportunity of considering the form in which they were arranged and of discussing them. It was little use to have items brought forward unless they were in a form which would enable them to discuss them under their several heads, and, when necessary, to ask for explanations concerning them. But when it was said that the Government were in fault, and that they had passed the vote surreptitiously, he must take their part, and say that they had no alternative in this case. On every night for bringing forward the estimates, so many motions were made before going into Committee, that it was impossible to get into Committee of Supply at a reasonable hour to discuss these questions. It was most desirable that hon. Gentlemen should bring forward general questions on notice of motion, and that when Supply came on they should merely bring forward those motions that had relation to Supply, and were properly applicable to the votes to be brought forward.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYwas afraid the noble Lord the Member for Totness (Lord Seymour) had hit upon rather an unlucky way of getting the Government out of their difficulty, because, on Monday night, when this motion came on, the house was already in Committee of Supply; so that there was no possibility of any motions being brought on in the mode pointed out. And besides that, the Government had already disposed of two very important motions on that evening—the one relating to the Sardinian loan, the other to the newspaper stamp—which had occupied the House until half an hour after midnight. Now, he would point out the disadvantage of the course pursued. He had himself an objection to urge against these estimates, founded upon an increase which had taken place in the inland revenue branch of them of 200,000l. Well, the hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Treasury, had stated, in explanation, that that increase had arisen from the increased poundage. But would the hon. Gentleman adhere to that statement? Let the House 1417 observe, the whole of that increase amounted to 211,000l., of which 111,000l. was put down for increased poundage. And then there came 36,000l. for salaries of officers, 25,000l. for buildings, 15,000l. for augmented office accommodation, and 12,000l. for miscellaneous expenses. Well, he would now ask, were all these items that could be classed under the head of "increased poundage?" He must say, therefore, this very discrepancy between the explanation of the Secretary to the Treasury and the recorded facts fully demonstrated the necessity for discussion relative to these estimates.
§ MR. WILSONsaid, he was glad of the opportunity of explaining the course that had been pursued by the Government and also complaining of the course that had been adopted towards them. Those estimates had been on the table for three weeks; on every night there was notice of Supply, and—more than that—there was the usual notice of moving particular estimates: and on three successive nights he had consented to postpone them. On Friday last he thought to get those estimates on, but on that night first of all there was a motion on the question of the adjournment of the House, which occupied nearly two hours. Then there was a Motion on going into Committee of Supply, which occupied the House until twelve o'clock, and it was obviously inconsistent with the convenience of the House that they should bring on the Votes after that hour. The next night was Monday; on Monday, also, there was notice of Supply, and likewise notice that those estimates would be taken on that night; but the discussion on the newspaper stamp occupied the House until nearly twelve o'clock. It was, however, absolutely necessary that the Votes should be brought on on Monday night, though of course it was quite competent for any hon. Gentleman to get up and object to the proposition for going into Supply on that occasion. If such an objection had been made, it would have been his (Mr. Wilson's) duty to explain that it was absolutely necessary for the public service that they should then go into Committee, because if they had postponed the Committee to the period he was addressing them, they could not report until after Easter, and consequently not a shilling of the salaries could have been paid until the House met after the recess. It was necessary, therefore, if they stopped until five o'clock in the morning that that Supply should have been then taken. 1418 If hon. Members chose to lot those estimates pass without observation it was not his duty to object to it—quite true that it was of little use hearing those estimates if they were not discussed—but in point of fact it was a matter of disappointment to him that they had not been discussed, for that was the object Government had in bringing them before the House. The practice of hon. Members giving notices of motion on going into Supply had the effect of enabling private Members to discuss some private measure of their own, and deprive the whole of the House of the opportunity of discussing those estimates though the discussion of them formed a most important duty of the House of Commons. Instead of there being ground of complaint against the Government, he (Mr. Wilson) thought he had good reason to retort on those who made it, and to complain that hon. Members superseded the business of Government by bringing forward their motions on going into Supply. In reply to the observation of the hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) he begged to state, that in explaining the increase referred to by him, be had said it principally arose from the increase of poundage; and undoubtedly it did principally arise from increased poundage. The hon. Baronet knew that the collectors of the assessed taxes and of the income tax were paid by poundage, and just in proportion as those taxes increased must the expense of collection increase.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that it was entirely the fault of the hon. Gentleman that the votes had not been discussed, he having brought them forward after twelve o'clock, and when he (Colonel Dunne) moved to postpone the vote on the Irish Post Office the hon. Member had divided the House against him. He considered that the hon. Gentleman had treated the House with great discourtesy upon that occasion.