§ On the Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Stamp Acts,
633§ MR. VANCEsaid, he wished to inquire whether the Resolutions to be moved were to be understood as passed simply pro formâ, and to be subject to a debate upon the whole question?
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, there could be no doubt that any Resolution passed in Committee preliminary to the introduction of a Bill would be quite open to discussion, both in principle and in detail. This was merely a preliminary Resolution, and the principle might be discussed upon the second reading of the Bill.
§ MR. MITCHELLsaid, this was no part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's plan for raising funds for the war. It was a substantial alteration of the law, upon certainly different grounds; and as the right hon. Gentleman had agreed to receive a deputation of the merchants of London on the subject, he could see no reason why the Resolutions should be now pressed.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, it was necesssary to take the Resolution now, because the progress of public business would be considerably delayed by its postponement. It was, as had been stated, merely preliminary to the introduction of the Bill; and the hon. Gentleman was aware that there were many other stages at which a discussion might be raised. In the meantime, he was quite sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be ready to attend to any representation which might be made to him upon the subject.
§
Resolution read—
That from and after the 10th day of August 1854, in lieu of the Stamp Duties now payable on the Bills of Exchange, Drafts or Orders, and Promissory Notes, for the payment of money hereinafter mentioned, or any of them, there shall he granted and paid upon the several Bills, Drafts, or Orders and Promissory Notes hereinafter respectively described, the following Stamp Duties; (that is to say),
| Inland Bill of Exchange, Draft or Order for the payment to the bearer or to order at any time otherwise than on demand, of any sum of money, | £ | £ | s. | d. |
| Not exceeding | 25 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
| Exceeding £25 & not exceeding | 50 | 0 | 0 | 6 |
| Exceeding £50 & not exceeding | 75 | 0 | 0 | 9 |
| Exceeding £75 & not exceeding | 100 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| Exceeding £100 & not exceeding | 200 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| Exceeding £200 & not exceeding | 300 | 0 | 3 | 0 |
| Exceeding £300 & not exceeding | 400 | 0 | 4 | 0 |
| Exceeding £400 & not exceeding | 500 | 0 | 5 | 0 |
| Exceeding £500 & not exceeding | 750 | 0 | 7 | 6 |
§ Motion made, and Question proposed—
| £ | £ | s. | d. | |
| Exceeding £750 & not exceeding | 1,000 | 0 | 10 | 0 |
§ House in Committee.
634§ MR. VANCEsaid, he must complain that the duty upon a bill of exchange for an amount between 750l. and 1,000l. should be fixed at 10s., whereas under the present law it was only 8s. 6d. Nothing could be more unfair than to place the wholesale trader, who had large transactions, at a disadvantage as compared with the retail trader, whose transactions were more limited, but whose profits were larger in proportion to the business done. Proceeding higher in the scale, he found that a still greater inequality was created; for upon a bill for 1,500l. the duty was to be 15s. And upon a bill for 2,000l., 20s. Whereas in either case at present it was only 12s. 6d. On all the larger amounts, the duty became proportionally higher; and as he considered this an injustice to the large trader, he should move that the duty upon bills between 750l. and 1,000l. remain at 8s. 6d., as at present.
§ Amendment proposed, to leave out "10s." and insert "8s. 6d." instead thereof.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, it was no doubt impossible to introduce an ad valorem duty with respect to stamps, without imposing a higher charge upon the large amounts. When his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Control (Sir C. Wood) had reconsidered the whole subject of the stamp duties, some years since, he had gone upon this principle; and the result had been, that while great reductions had been made upon the smaller stamps, there had been corresponding additions to the larger ones. This was the very object which the Government had in view in proposing the present measure, for it was felt that the stamp duty upon bills of exchange of small amount was unduly high, and pressed so heavily as to amount in many cases to a prohibition. What they wanted was that every transaction should pay a stamp duty as nearly as possible proportioned to the amount of the transaction itself. It was true, as the hon. Gentleman had said, that the stamp upon a bill for an amount between 750l. and 1,000l. was proposed to be fixed at 10s., whereas it was now 8s. 6d,; but the duty of 8s. 6d was upon a bill of two months' date, and if the date were three months it was raised to 12s. 6d.; whereas the Government being anxious not only to introduce an ad valorem duty, but to make the system as simple as possible—proposed to do away with all distinction as to date, and to charge the duty of 10s. upon all bills of this amount with- 635 out reference to the time they might have to run. But he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the important relief which this measure would give, in reference to bills of small amount. It was proposed that a bill of exchange for every sum not exceeding 25l. should pay a duty of 3d. only, whereas the present duty on a 25l. bill was 2s. if it were drawn for any period not exceeding two months, and 2s. 6d. if for any longer date. For a transaction under 50l. they proposed to charge a duty of 6d., instead of 2s. 6d., and 3s. 6d. as at present. If they looked at every step of the scale, they would find that the principle of an ad valorem duty was exactly carried out. It was a duty of ls. on a bill for 100l., and of ls. per 100l. afterwards. The whole intention of the measure was to charge large transactions something more than hitherto; and to relieve small transactions from the very undue amount to which they had hitherto been exposed.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he would beg to ask whether the hon. Gentleman was of opinion that the alteration would lead to an increase or a diminution of the revenue?
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, the object had been not to increase the revenue, but it was desirable not to lose. The most careful calculations had been made by the officers of inland revenue, and the result of these calculations was, that the whole amount of the present revenue would be obtained, with the aid of the duties to be charged on foreign bills. As far as he could judge, the effect of the whole measure, in a financial point of view, would be as nearly as possible a balance.
§ MR. CROSSLEYsaid, he should defend the measure as an improvement, and as being, in fact, one of the best features of the budget. The present stamp duties upon bills of small amount pressed very heavily upon the small tradesman, and particularly on the beginner in business, to whom it ought to be their object to afford every possible facility.
§ MR. MITCHELLsaid, he must deny that the same pro rata profit was realised upon small transactions as upon large ones, and was not, therefore, prepared to say that a strictly ad valorem scale of duties would be a perfectly just arrangement. He admitted that some alteration ought to be made, but thought the Government would have done better if they had deferred dealing with the subject until they were in a position to make some sacrifice of re- 636 venue. His special objection, however, was to that part of the scheme which proposed to impose a stamp duty upon foreign bills of exchange.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he had always complained of the disproportions between the duties upon small and those on large amounts, and was surprised that any objection should be made to an attempt to get rid of it.
§ MR. W. BROWNsaid, he objected to the stamp upon foreign bills; instead of imposing fresh burdens upon foreign bills, they might endeavour to lighten those to which it was now subject.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he would beg to point out to the hon. Member that the stamp on foreign bills was not the question now before the Committee.
§ MR. MASTERMANsaid, he apprehended that the scheme must be discussed as a whole; that anticipated revenues from the stamps on foreign bills was relied upon to supply the deficiency which the modification of the duties upon inland bills would occasion; and that that modification, therefore, would not be carried out unless the other portion of the plan received the sanction of the Committee. The two questions, therefore, could not very well be separated, and those who objected, as he did, to the imposition of stamps on foreign bills were perfectly justified in stating their objections now.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he was quite ready to discuss the question as to foreign bills at once, if he were really to understand that the other portion of the measure depended upon that being assented to by the Committee. He would therefore ask the hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury what was to be done in the event of a bill being drawn by a person resident abroad upon his debtor resident in this country? What was the debtor to do? Was he to send the bill to the Stamp Office for the purpose of being stamped, or was he to refuse payment? This was the difficulty which he confessed had suggested itself to him, and upon which he should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would favour the Committee with an explanation.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, he must beg to be allowed to postpone giving an answer to the question until the question of the stamp duties upon foreign bills should be regularly before the Committee. He must admit that the several facts of the measure were closely connected with each other, but he would remind the Committee that 637 the low rates of duty had been passed without any opposition, and that it was not until they came to the higher rates that any objection was raised.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he wished to understand the matter clearly, that it might not be said hereafter that the Committee had precluded itself from discussing the question of the duties upon foreign bills by allowing the duties upon inland bills to pass. Did these inland duties stand upon their own merits, or did they form part of a whole scheme? If they formed part of a whole scheme, they must discuss the foreign duties now.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, no doubt they formed part of a whole scheme, but he must again remind the Committee that the lower rates of duty had already been accepted without any question being raised. Of course, when the foreign duties came to be considered, it would be open to any gentleman to oppose them, and if they were rejected, the Government might then determine how to deal with the other portions of the scheme.
§ Question, "That '8s. 6d.' stand part of the proposed Resolution," put and negatived.
§ "Exceeding 750l., and not exceeding 1,000l.," 10s. put, and agreed to.
| £ | £ | £ | s. | d. |
| Exceeding 1,000 & not exceeding | 1,500 | 0 | 15 | 0 |
| Exceeding 1,500 & not exceeding | 2,000 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| Exceeding 2,000 & not exceeding | 3,000 | 1 | 10 | 0 |
| Exceeding 3,000 & not exceeding | 4,000 | 2 | 0 | 0 |
| Exceeding 4,000 & upwards | 2 | 5 | 0 |
§ Foreign Bill of Exchange, drawn in, but payable out of, the United Kingdom,
§ If drawn singly, and not in sets of more than two, the same Duty as on an Inland Bill of the same amount and tenor.
§ If drawn in sets of three or more,
| £ | £ | s. | d. | |
| For every Bill of each set, where the sum payable thereby shall not exceed | 25 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| And where it shall exceed £25 and not exceed | 50 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| And where it shall exceed £50 and not exceed | 75 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
| And where it shall exceed £75 and not exceed | 100 | 0 | 0 | 4 |
| And where it shall exceed £100 and not exceed | 200 | 0 | 0 | 8 |
| And where it shall exceed £200 and not exceed | 300 | 0 | 1 | 0 |
| And where it shall exceed £300 and not exceed | 400 | 0 | 1 | 4 |
| And where it shall exceed £400 and not exceed | 500 | 0 | 1 | 8 |
| And where it shall exceed £500 and not exceed | 750 | 0 | 2 | 6 |
| And where it shall exceed £750 and not exceed | 1,000 | 0 | 3 | 4 |
| And where it shall exceed £1,000 and not exceed | 1,500 | 0 | 5 | 0 |
§ Foreign Bill of Exchange drawn out of the United Kingdom, and payable within the United Kingdom, the same Duty as on an Inland Bill of the same amount and tenor.
§ MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he wished to know how it was proposed to collect the revenue from foreign bills of exchange.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, the difficulty of collection had hitherto been the only reason why the duty was not imposed. Government had always been unwilling to impose upon merchants the trouble of coming to the Stamp Office to have their bills stamped. Great as the trouble was, however, it was done in France, Holland, Belgium, and in most of the continental countries of Europe. The invention of adhesive stamps gave facilities for the adoption of the system here which did not before exist; and it was now proposed to issue adhesive stamps at rates corresponding to those in the schedules for all foreign bills drawn in this country; so that the person who receives such bills would be the person on whom the duty would devolve of affixing the stamp.
§ MR. THOMSON HANKEYsaid, he wished to know at what stage of the circulation of the bill it would be necessary to affix the stamp? Was it to be affixed before the bill was presented for acceptance, or before the bill was paid?
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, the original proposition was that no bill should be accepted till it was stamped, which would be carrying out the analogy with the inland bills. But it was found, if they rigidly insisted upon that rule, that they would expose merchants who were in the habit of receiving large batches of bills at once to great inconvenience, and prevent them from presenting the bills on the day they received them. It was, therefore, now proposed that the bill might be stamped at any time before it was endorsed or passed from the hand of the first person who received it.
§ MR. GLYNsaid, he would beg to ask whether it would be possible that bankers in the colonies, who were the great drawers of bills of exchange, might compound for the stamp duties on the same principle that bankers in England and 639 Scotland were allowed to compound for their stamps? He thought this would be a great boon to them, as it would obviate many inconveniences.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, they had not considered the plan—it was quite a new idea. He could only say that they had every disposition to carry out compounding for stamps, as they were doing it in Ireland and in Scotland in a way which had never been done before. The only difficulty which at present occurred to him was, that they had no data from which to compute the probable amount of the bills drawn by these banks.
§ MR. THOMSON HANKEYsaid, the plan of enforcing the stamps, as stated by the hon. Member for Westbury (Mr. Wilson) obviated one inconvenience, but he objected to the principle altogether. As he understood the plan, it would not be necessary to affix the stamp to the bill till the period of payment, if the person into whose hands it came retained it in his own possession until that time. [Mr. J. WILSON: "Hear!"] Then, in fact, this was only a new form of imposing a stamp receipt, which, having been lowered generally, was to be re-imposed on this particular class; and it would fall not upon the bankers, but upon the manufacturing interest of the country.
§ MR. GLYNsaid, it had nothing whatever to do with stamp receipts; but it would have this effect, that before a foreign bill could be put into circulation it must be subject, in the same way as an inland bill, to the stamp duty.
§ In answer to Mr. W. BROWN,
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, that if a person in this country received a bill from abroad, drawn upon himself, and which he did not require to present to others, he was afraid, unless that person was a man of honour, they would have no hold upon him for the receipt.
Foreign Bill of Exchange, drawn out of the United Kingdom, and payable out of the United Kingdom, but indorsed or negotiated within the United Kingdom, the same Duty as on a Foreign Bill drawn within the United Kingdom, and payable out of the United Kingdom.
§ MR. VANCEsaid, he thought there was no necessity for including bills endorsed as well as bills negotiated within the United Kingdom.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, that what the hon. Gentleman objected to was the whole pith of the Resolution, because endorsement was the only evidence that could be 640 obtained of negotiation. The Resolution was intended to apply to bills of exchange drawn upon the Continent, sent here as remittances for goods, negotiated here, and then sent back to the Continent for acceptances.
§ MR. VANCEsaid, it would apply to a bill drawn abroad and payable abroad, and sent here merely for endorsement by the firm whose agent had drawn it.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, such cases were extremely rare.
Promissory Note, for the payment, in any other manner than to the Bearer on demand, of any sum of money, not exceeding," &c. [Same duties as on Inland Bills of Exchange.]
§ Resolution agreed to.