§ Order for Committee read; House in Committee.
§ The following Votes were agreed to—
- (1.) 3,875l., University of London.
- (2.) 7,710l., Scottish Universities.
- (3.) 300l., Royal Irish Academy.
- (4.) 300l., Royal Hibernian Academy.
- (5.) 2,600l., Theological Professors, Belfast.
- (6.) 2,259l., Queen's University, Ireland.
- (7.) 55,225l., British Museum Establishment.
§ MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he must complain of the plan adopted at the Museum, by which the admission of visitors 1054 was confined to only three days in the week, the other two days being occupied by students for drawing. He thought this matter required a radical reform, and all the more that he believed the period allowed for students was not taken advantage of by them. He had himself gone to the Museum on a drawing day, when he found only twelve students so engaged, and he had ascertained that the average attendance for several months past was only about twenty-four. He hoped the attention of the Government would be called to this subject.
§ MR. J. BALLsaid, he hoped the Committee would receive the assurance of some Member of the Government that the management of the British Museum would, ere long, receive the attention of Ministers. The abuses in the management of that institution were inherent in the system. The public were led to believe, that, because there were several gentlemen of distinction connected with the management of the Museum, their ability was a guarantee for the due performance of their duties, and the good government of the institution. It was far from his intention to cast the slightest imputation upon those individuals, but the fact was, that the variety and complexity of objects to be attended to were such as made it impossible for any large number of those gentlemen to be competent to manage. One might be acquainted with antiquities, another with science, and a third with geology; but, when any question which really interested the public was required to be decided upon, there were very few of them competent to give a sound decision. Besides, out of the seven persons who had the practical management of the Museum, it was well known that only four or five were present on any one occasion, and they might happen to be the least competent of the whole body. As an illustration of the evils of the present system, he might allude to the case of the Faussett Collection of British antiquities, which was well known to be the most valuable collection of the sort that had ever been brought together, and yet, when an opportunity was offered to the Trustees of that Museum to acquire the collection at a price far below its value; and when another collection, only inferior to it in value, was offered gratuitously, on condition that the Faussett Collection was purchased, the Trustees refused to buy the collection. He had further to complain, that there was no recognised person in that 1055 House from whom information was to be had, since the hon. Baronet who lately represented the University of Oxford (Sir Robert Harry Inglis) had ceased to be a Member of the House. He would mention another instance of the gross mismanagement of the Trustees. A distinguished officer of the Museum, Mr. Hawkins, had for years been engaged in the preparation of an important work, illustrative of British history, at the request of the Trustees. The work was nearly completed, and had, in fact, gone through the press, when the Trustees derided that it was unfit for publication. The reasons assigned for this decision were various. Some said it was offensive to the adherents to the Stuarts, and others said it was offensive to the Roman Catholics, and a third party said it was offensive to the memory of William III., of whom the right hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) was so warm an admirer. But the most remarkable fact was, that Mr. Hawkins had literally been denied a copy of his own book, though he requested one, that he might correct or defend what was considered offensive. He might also state, that the scientific department of the Museum was in such a condition, that students could derive no instruction from the collections.
§ MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he would suggest that steps should be taken to print some of the valuable manuscripts in the possession of the Museum—the works of Wycliffe, for instance, which, he was sorry to say, to the disgrace of this country, had never yet been printed.
§ MR. GEACHsaid, he hoped that more frequent opportunities would be given to the public of visiting the British Museum. He saw no more reason in shutting it up on certain days in the week, than there would be in shutting up the Crystal Palace.
§ MR. W. J. FOXsaid, he trusted that if the Museum was to be opened more frequently to the general public, some reservation would be made with regard to those portions where artists were employed in copying works of antiquity. The real reason of the difficulty in throwing open the Museum every day was, that the collection had outgrown, not only all existing capacity, but all the capacity that it was possible to afford in the present situation. There ought to be a complete separation of the library and the antiquities, nor would the space thus obtained be at all more than was wanted for the full expansion of the library. 1056 He would also suggest that there should be a reading-room established, accessible in the evening. He had often heard young men express their regret that there was no such advantage open to them, and he knew that they would be willing to contribute towards any expense which it might cause. Students in the industrial arts, too, for whom lectures had been provided in Jermyn Street, complained that there were frequent references made in their lectures to articles in the British Museum, which were not accessible to their inspection at any hour which they could command.
§ MR. JAMES MACGREGORsaid, he thought that any money would be well spent which might be devoted to enabling the public to visit the Museum more frequently.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, he was sure that his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) would be always prepared, if due notice were given him, to answer any questions that might be addressed to him with respect to the management of the Museum, for there had never been a more active, zealous, and able representative of that establishment than his right hon. Friend, not even excepting the hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Harry Inglis) whose absence from that House they all deplored. He could state, on the authority of his right hon. Friend, that the propriety of adding to the time during which the Museum was open free to the public was at present undergoing the earnest consideration of the Trustees. It should not be forgotten, that the public establishments devoted to art in this country were already open to the public on more days than similar establishments in continental cities were open to the inhabitants of those cities. In Paris, the people were admitted to the Louvre on Sunday only, although, no doubt, a stranger, on producing his passport, was admitted on every other day. He readily admitted, however, that time fact that a less amount of accommodation was given in Paris, afforded no reason why we should not increase the accommodation to the public in this country.
§ MR. J. O. PHILLIMOREsaid, that, although the Louvre was only open on Sundays, he believed that the Bibliothèque Imperiale in Paris was open to the public every day in the week.
§ MR. EWARTsaid, he thought it was a discredit to the Trustees of the British Museum that they had not purchased the 1057 Faussett Collection of Anglo-Saxon antiquities. It had been offered to them fur the moderate sum of 680l., and if they had purchased it they were to have received another collection gratuitously. The Trustees had returned all sorts of answers to the applications which had been made to them upon the subject. The principal reason, however, which they had assigned for not buying the collection was, that they had not the necessary funds; and when Lord Mahon had offered to make an application to the Treasury for the money, they had negatived his proposal. He believed that the errors committed in that, and in other cases, were owing to the fact that the Trustees of the establishment were persons invested with no real responsibility.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he could assure the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. E wart) that that question had been fully considered by the Trustees at several meetings. The Committee must be aware of the great difficulty that there was connected with the purchase of antiquities. First of all, there was the limited sum placed at their disposal by Parliament for that purpose. Next, consider the wide field that department comprised. There were Nineveh antiquities, Greek antiquities, Mediaeval antiquities, Anglo-Saxon antiquities, British antiquities, and even antiquities from America had been offered to the Trustees. In fact, there was no part of the world from which antiquities did not come, and the difficulty was, with the limited sum at their disposal, to please all parties. The only question for the consideration of the Trustees was, how to secure those antiquities which it was thought most desirable to possess. Now the classical antiquities were of such a nature that the people could not possess them unless the Trustees procured them—antiquities relating to Greece, Italy, and Asia Minor, which, if they were not procured for the Museum, would not be procured at all. But they knew well that British antiquities, if they were not procured for the Museum, would not be lost to the country, for they would find place in some provincial museum. Now that was the case with the Faussett Collection, and he believed that the decision of the Trustees was not an injudicious one. It was impossible that the Trustees could purchase every collection that was offered to them. It was but lately that they were asked to give 8,000l. for a collection of shells from the Pacific, which, of course, 1058 they were obliged to refuse. With respect to the Faussett Collection, every means was taken to have a full attendance of Trustees to discuss it, and on one occasion, a general meeting was summoned on a notice of motion to apply to the Treasury for the money to purchase it. There was a large attendance, and the subject was fully discussed, and the Trustees decided that it was not a case in which they ought to apply to the Treasury. He believed that the Trustees embraced gentlemen who were authorities on all subjects of literature and science. The question of antiquities, every one knew, was one of more difficulty than any other, as the question of taste entered so largely into it; but still he thought that upon the whole the decision which the Trustees had come to was a right one.
§ MR. BELLsaid, he believed that many persons would be surprised at the statement of the noble Lord, that the first object of the Trustees was to purchase the antiquities of remote nations, and not those of our own country.
§ MR. EWARTsaid, that as the antiquities in the Faussett Collection were connected with our own early history, it was peculiarly desirable that the Trustees of the museum should have purchased them.
§ MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he must beg to express a hope that the library of the British Museum would be opened in the evening, for the benefit of young men who could not attend at any other time.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, the question of opening the library in the evening had been frequently mooted. It must be remembered, however, that the library of the British Museum was different from a common lending library. Its real value was not for persons who wanted to read the common books of the day, or of the last fifty years. There was scarcely any work of science, of history, or of memoirs in Europe, which had not derived benefit from it. It should, therefore, be most open to readers of that class who came there to compile works, and who wanted assistance from books which were not of ready access elsewhere. There ought to be other metropolitan libraries of common books, where people could read when they pleased; but to admit persons in the evening, and let them send for any books they wanted out of 450,000 volumes, would be to incur great risk. The officers must go about with lights, and put them down while looking for books, and this would of course 1059 be attended with danger. The object could only be accomplished by putting aside a certain number of books to be read—an arrangement which would cause great dissatisfaction. When there was a new reading-room, there would be much greater accommodation for readers; but he thought the department of printed books and the department of manuscripts were, as far as the public were concerned, the most useful parts of the British Museum.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSthought some fault might be found with the Trustees for not having adopted a particular principle with reference to the antiquities they thought proper to select. He could not see why the Trustees should consider the collection of English antiquities beneath their notice. They had lost an admirable opportunity of commencing a collection of British antiquities.
§ MR. W. J. FOXsaid, he understood there was a large number of duplicates in the collection, which might be made available for an evening library.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he was glad to have an opportunity of explaining the position of the library with regard to duplicates. If the various editions of the same work were to be called duplicates it possessed a good many; but unless they were exact copies it was not right to call them duplicates. Great mischief had arisen from the former practice of disposing of duplicates; a copy of a work of Cranmer, with his autograph, was disposed of in ignorance of its value. It was also desirable to retain duplicates, as the books were sometimes mutilated by the readers. Perhaps, hereafter, some of the duplicates might be put aside and used in a reading library, but until the new reading-room was completed there was no accommodation for such a purpose.
§ MR. BELLsaid, a plan had been proposed by Mr. Panizzi, for opening the reading-room in the evening. He wished at the same time to ask when it was likely that the new catalogue would be completed. According to his calculation, it would take sixteen years to complete the new general catalogue, containing all the books in the library before 1847; all since that date were to be put in the supplemental catalogue. At present it was necessary to search five catalogues for a book.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, the catalogue was now in such a state that almost any book could be found. He had looked out 1060 a book and had it brought to him within three minutes, which, considering the extent of the library, was wonderfully quick. During the inquiry by the Commission, the Commissioners sent into the reading-room, and invited the readers to come and make complaints. In came several persons, who said that such and such a book was not in the catalogue, and that it was a disgrace to the Museum that it was not to be found there. He (Lord Seymour) turned over the pages of the catalogue, and found the missing volume—and he also discovered on inquiry, that it had been there for several years. Such complaints came generally from careless and superficial readers, who wanted to have the place found for them, and complained if it were not. He recollected one reader complaining that, having sometimes twenty volumes at once, it was very hard that he should have to carry them all back; it was, he said, servants' work. He (Lord Seymour) asked how he acted in that respect when using his own library, when he confessed that his library was very small. In one case a person complained that he could not get a Horace. It turned out that there were three hundred copies of Horace in the Museum. The explanation was that the reader had not stated what edition he wanted, and he consequently complained that he had been ill-treated at the library. A little handbook of the library had been published, which he thought would be most useful to the public.
In reply to a few remarks from Mr. BELL,
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he wished the different public libraries would combine to print a useful catalogue in order that everyone might be able to ascertain what books were printed up to a certain date. Such a catalogue would be a guide to all literature hereafter. Something of that kind might easily be undertaken if this country, France, and some of the Italian States, would combine. He did not think that at present an attempt to print the whole catalogue would be of any great use.
§ MR. EWARTsaid, the Committee on public libraries, of which he was a Member, advised that there should be a catalogue of catalogues—a national catalogue comprising the books of all the public libraries in the country. The United States already possessed that advantage. He agreed with the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) that it was desirable to establish a number of public libraries in the metro- 1061 polis. The Report of the Commission on the Corporation of the City of London recommended that London should be divided into different localities. Such a division would afford facilities for establishing several libraries, and he should like to know, therefore, whether it was the intention of the Government to establish separate corporations for different districts in London.
Vote agreed to.
(8.) 101,142l. for New Buildings and Fittings.
§ MR. HEYWOODsaid, there was an item of 61,000l. "for the erection of a building within the interior quadrangle of the Museum, for the purpose of affording increased accommodation." He wished to know what kind of building it was for which so large a sum was required. If it was merely for the glass roof of the quadrangle, he thought the sum was a great deal too much.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, the expense of forming the new reading-room was undoubtedly considerable, but at present it was absolutely impossible to find room for the collection of books which found their way into the Museum. The new building would afford accommodation for many years to come, and, in addition, it would form a good reading-room for the use of double the number of readers who at present attended the library.
Vote agreed to; as was also—
(9.) 1,500l., Antiquities for the Museum.
(10.) 7,490l., National Gallery,
§ LORD WILLIAM GRAHAMsaid, he wished to know whether the rumour was well-founded that it was in contemplation to appoint a salaried director, and to select an eminent German professor for the appointment. He should have thought that an English gentleman could be found that would be thoroughly qualified to act.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, the subject referred to was under the consideration of the First Lord of the Treasury, to whom it was referred. An application had been made within the last fortnight from the National Gallery with regard to the appointment of such an officer. He hoped that the Government would make the appointment in a few days. There was no truth whatever in the rumour of a German professor being about to be appointed.
MR. DANBY SEYMOURsaid, he saw that it was proposed to vote 27,000l. in the present Estimates for a new National Gallery at Kensington Gore. Now, the 1062 Government had never said that they had fixed upon Kensington Gore as the site for a National Gallery, and from the form of this Vote there were no means of judging what they intended to build there. The Royal Academy were only allowed to occupy a portion of the building in Trafalgar Square, because at that period the nation did not possess sufficient pictures to furnish it, and they held it under the distinct understanding, that when the pictures belonging to the nation should increase so much that more space was required, they were to give it up. That time had now arrived, for there were more pictures in the National Gallery than could be properly hung there, to say nothing of the Vernon Gallery, which ought to be under the same roof as the rest of the paintings belonging to the nation. Common sense, therefore, suggested that the Royal Academy should be required to remove from Trafalgar Square, and that the apartments vacated by them should be given up to the Vernon Gallery. The Government had given 140,000l. for Burlington House, and if it were right for the public to give rooms and accommodation to the Royal Academy, they might be located there.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, the item of 27,000l. for land at Kensington might be said to be a continuation of the Vote of last year. With regard to the Vernon Gallery, the Committee were aware it not that those pictures were not to be mixed up with any others; and Her Majesty was graciously pleased to allow them to be kept separately in Marlborough House. There was no convenient place to which the Royal Academy could be removed, and he believed that the public were satisfied with them remaining where they were at present, in Trafalgar Square.
MR. DANBY SEYMOURsaid, he distinctly remembered that the Vote was taken for the purchase of land at Kensington Gore, without any pledge being given on the part of the House that the National Gallery should be removed from Trafalgar Square. The exhibition of the Royal Academy, it was understood, brought in 7,000l, a year, although the original agreement with them was, that they were not to charge the public anything for admission. It was said that the Royal Academy had accumulated a sum of 140,000l., although no means existed of knowing the truth of this report. The whole question of the Royal Academy required to be looked into, and he hoped before next Session 1063 Government would make some inquiry respecting it.
§ MR. EWARTsaid, it was well known, by the declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being, made twenty years ago, that the Royal Academy only held the rooms in Trafalgar Square under the sanction of the Government, and that they might be invited to vacate them whenever the public required the rooms they now occupied. They certainly were not in Trafalgar Square in perpetuity, they were only tenants at will. He should like to see the Royal Academy independent, and not relying only on Royal patronage, but rather on the intrinsic merits of its members, and the artists associated with it.
§ MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he must complain of the National Gallery being open only four days a week, while Marlborough House, the British Museum, and other places of public amusement, were open five or six.
§ LORD WILLIAM GRAHAMsaid, that he saw a sum of 2,800l. assigned for certain German pictures. Were they only curiosities, or were they calculated to serve the purposes of real art?
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, that was the object. They were pictures of a very rare description.
§ MR. DRUMMONDsaid, it appeared to him that year after year the House of Commons was called upon to vote large sums of money for the purposes of these institutions, and that the voting such sums seemed but to tend to the demand for still larger sums each successive year. There was no end to this kind of encroachments, and they ought to be checked. It really seemed as if Government was in the hands and at the mercy of the builders, and he never yet saw a Government building erected which could not have been built under the supervision of a private gentleman at a considerably reduced cost. He must confess he was much surprised that the Committee had not been edified with any account this year of "the pumice-stone," and its judicious effects on some of our best pictures, and he considered it anything but wise in Parliament to go on blindly expending large sums of money in the purchase of pictures, merely to place them under the control of the same men who had so grievously misused them. He believed no private persons who had any pictures they cared about would have continued to subject them to 1064 that judicious custody which Government had not thought it improper to continue.
Vote agreed to; as were also the two following Votes—
(11.) 2,020l., Magnetic Observations Abroad, &c.
(12.) 500l., Royal Geographical Society.
(13.) 11,250l., Mixed Commissions.
§ SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he must complain that, so far as he could see, nothing had been done in the last year towards the suppression of the slave trade. Certainly a few vessels had been captured off the coast of Africa, but none off the coast of Cuba, the seat and spring of the traffic. It was of the highest importance that this service should be conducted in a proper and efficient manner, but he found that the squadron off Cuba had been reduced by two vessels. At this moment there were only four vessels conducting the service off that island—a force which he considered totally inadequate. He contended that it was highly inexpedient to reduce the force just at a moment when the Spanish Government appeared to be taking up the subject in earnest. There must be a determined blockade maintained off that coast. Brazil had already given way, and Spain would also, if we showed that we were determined to put an end to the traffic.
Vote agreed to,
(14.) 156,865l., Consular Establishments Abroad.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that amongst the items in this Vote he observed the sum of 4,000l. for consuls at Russian ports: he should like to know if these were still maintained? There were also charges for consuls at Cologne, Frankfort, Paris (where we had an Ambassador and a complete diplomatic establishment), Madrid (of which the same might be said), Naples, Patras, Athens, Cincinnati, and other places, our trade with which was a mere bagatelle. He contended that all these charges were unnecessary, and a waste of public money, and that the appointments were made for mere purposes of patronage.
§ SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he must express his regret that no Member of the Government had thought fit to answer the observations he had made relative to the slave trade, and the necessity for taking more active measures fur preventing its being carried on in Cuba.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he could assure his hon. and gallant Friend 1065 that his noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office, and his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, were unceasing in their endeavours to obtain from Spain the due execution of the treaties by which that country was bound to assist in the suppression of the slave trade. Considerable impression, he believed, had been made on the Court of Madrid; and orders had been given by which the slave trade of Cuba would be materially brought down, if not entirely annihilated. The wants of the naval service elsewhere had compelled the withdrawal of some portion of the forces employed upon that station; but he was assured that the vessels still employed were sufficient for the purpose, and he could assure his hon. and gallant Friend that this was an object which the Government had greatly at heart. The hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams) had complained of the expense of the maintenance of consuls at certain places, and had broadly stated his opinion that we had no trade with those places, and that there was no need of consuls at them. He (Lord Palmerston) could assure him that his judgment had been formed upon very light and erroneous grounds. In all these places similar officers were needed, and in most cases their salaries were really below what was required to enable the officer to keep up the decent appearance which was essential to the due performance of his duties and to the credit of the country which he represented.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he rose to order. The noble Lord was carrying on a most. interesting conversation on the other (the Ministerial) side of the House, of which hon. Members on that (the Opposition) side could not hear a word.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that what had passed between his hon. Friend (Mr. Williams) and himself was rather interesting to them than to the Members of the House generally, as he was endeavouring to satisfy his hon. Friend of that of which he thought it was not necessary to satisfy any other hon. Member, viz. that this subject of consular appointments had been minutely looked into by his noble Friend now at the head of the Foreign Office, and by himself when he held the seals of that department, that the number of consuls had been reduced to as low a point as was consistent with the public service, and that their salaries were generally less than he (Lord Palmerston) thought that they ought to be.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he should like to be informed what were the duties of our consul at Cincinnati. No ships from this country ever went within 1,000 miles of the place. Next year he should divide the Committe upon every one of these items.
§ CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, that the Vote included consuls at St. Petersburg, Riga, Archangel, and some ten or a dozen other places in Russia. We had no trade there now, at all events, and he should like to know how it was that they were included.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, that those consuls had been temporarily withdrawn from their duties; but they were public officers, and during that period were entitled to a considerable portion of their salaries. Although these Votes were taken now, it by no moans followed that the whole of the money would be expended.
MR. DANBY SEYMOURsaid, he wished to inquire whether the consuls in China were allowed to trade? If they were, they would have a strong interest in siding with the rebels against the Imperialists. With respect to the recent attack on Shanghai it was his belief that if we went on as we had been going, we must end by an occupation of the country. That was not only his opinion, but it was the opinion also of merchants in this country, and of individuals holding high official situations in other countries. This was the very way in which the Burmah occupation had begun. The consul first asked for a plot of ground, then for a force to protect it, and then for fortifications. Gradually the interests of private merchants would, unless the Government interfered, drag us into the occupation of a great portion of China. This had for some time been advocated by a newspaper of considerable circulation, published in Calcutta, called the Friend of India, which constantly asserted that the British empire in the East could never stop till it reached Pekin. He considered it would be wrong to interfere with the internal arrangements of the Chinese empire, and, although it was certainly the duty of the British Government to protect its subjects, it should by no means encourage them to take steps that might lead to a misunderstanding with the Chinese Government.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the transaction to which his hon. Friend had alluded was simply this—that the Chinese troops had encroached upon the ground that was set apart for British subjects, and committed such acts of violence that it 1067 became absolutely necessary to repel violence by violence; but, so far from our proceedings in China having had a tendency to disturb the peaceful relations between the British Government and the Chinese empire, and to lead to encroachments on their territory, we had, on the contrary, acted with the greatest forbearance. Ever since the conclusion of the Treaty of Nankin the conduct of the Chinese authorities had been such as would have justified a rupture with that Government. They had violated the engagements into which they had entered, and if any desire existed on the part of the British Government to proceed against them, abundant cause had existed almost since the termination of the last war. They had refused on divers pretences to admit us to parts of Canton to which we ought to have access, avoided their engagements with respect to the Hongs, and nullified their stipulations in regard to tariff. In point of fact, there was hardly a single engagement they had not broken.
§ SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Government to losses occasioned by pirates on the coast of Morocco, with a view to sending out instructions to our consul there, in order that active measures might be taken against them.
§ MR. GREGSONsaid, he quite agreed with What had fallen from the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) with respect to the conduct of the Chinese authorities, and he believed before long it would be necessary to take more determined measures to compel them to adhere to their treaties.
Vote agreed to.
(15.) 18,500l., Missions abroad.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he had complained before of the vast number of British public officers at Constantinople. They had there a consul and vice-consul, with large salaries, an ambassador, with not less than half-a-dozen attachés, and there was a considerable charge for interpreters, attachés, and clerks. There were also charges for servants and servants' board wages at St. Petersburg. He thought such extravagance ought to be corrected, for these charges increased year by year.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, he must explain that the entry was an extraordinary one, caused by the sudden withdrawal of our ambassador from Russia, and the consequent break up of the ambassador's establishment. It was obvious that the 1068 country must bear all the inconvenience caused by the sudden disruption of peace.
Vote agreed to.
(16.) 135,772l., Superannuation and Retired Allowances.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, he believed this was a Vote which ought to be closely watched after. He found that there was an increase of 3,000l. in the present Vote as compared with that of last year. Now, he found that many persons had been permitted to retire from the public service upon superannuation allowances as early as forty years of age, and a still greater number at fifty. Many of them, no doubt, retired from permanent ill-health; but with others that was not the case, and the public ought to stand accurately informed as to the exact position of all parties allowed to retire. What he was prepared to contend for was, that all new appointments ought to be filled up from the redundant list, and that no new ones ought to be made until that list was exhausted. The only case he could recall to mind in which a public servant had returned to office after having been superannuated for ill-health, was that of Sir Alexander Spearman, who was Secretary to the Treasury. That gentleman, after an absence of a year or two from his office, expressed his Willingness to resume the charge of any duties that might offer; and accordingly his invaluable services were being once more enjoyed by the public. He felt confident that any Government which wished to gain a reputation for administering the affairs of the country with proper intentions, should look to this matter, and act on the determination of, as far as possible, filling all vacant situations from the redundant list.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, he must admit that there was much force in the observations of his right hon. Friend. However, he would remind the Committee that the Government had little or no control over the present Vote, which was regulated by Act of Parliament; and, moreover, the money paid could scarcely be called public money at all, inasmuch as a fund was contributed by gentlemen engaged in the public service very much larger in amount than that annually voted by Parliament. Indeed, the real question, he considered, was whether the service ought not to be placed in a much better position relative to retiring allowances.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he observed that persons at a comparatively early age 1069 were set down as retiring from infirmity, and one gentleman, aged sixty-one, whose salary was 1,000l. a year, he saw received a very large pension. There were other pensions charged on the Treasury for persons fifty-four years of age. Many distinguished persons were able to hold their present offices and discharge most onerous duties who had attained greater age than that. He must also complain of the great increase of superannuation charges in the Audit Office, and in the public offices in Ireland.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, that such cases sprung up under the regulations in force prior to the year 1834, when the superannuation fund was established. The time would shortly arrive when the interest of the accumulated fund would exceed the sum voted by Parliament on that account.
§ CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, he could not avoid complaining that there were larger retiring allowances being granted to men in the civil service than in either the Army or Navy. When had they heard of an old admiral or general receiving 1,200l. a year? He also found men entering the public service after forty years of age. Now that should not be so.
§ LORD NAASsaid, he thought it very desirable that the Government should in form the Committee whether they had arrived as yet at any decision in respect of the civil service superannuation fund, as much anxiety was felt in many quarters on that point.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, this was a question of great importance to the public servants, and it was right that a decision should be come to as speedily as possible. They alleged, what the state of the account would certainly lead them to infer, that they were paying a larger amount of contribution than was required to provide the necessary superannuation. At the same time, this allegation was open to dispute. The payments might in the meantime be large and the claims small, but the latter might increase, as in the case of an insurance office. The question, however, was under consideration, the Government actuary being engaged in making the necessary calculations, and a decision would be come to as soon as possible.
Vote agreed to; as were also the following—
(17.) 2,561l., Toulonese and Corsican emigrants.
(18.) 2,210l., National Vaccine Establishment.
1070 (19.) 325l., Refuge for the Destitute.
(20.) 4,200l., Polish Refugees and Distressed Spaniards.
(21.) 4,469l., Miscellaneous Allowances
(22.) 1,352l., Foundling Hospital, Dublin.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he objected to this Vote. He did not see why there should be hospitals of the kind maintained in Ireland at the public expense. There was nothing of the kind done in England and Scotland. He gave notice that he would divide on the Vote the next year, if it was brought forward; as well as on all the other Votes of the same description.
§ LORD NAASsaid, the hon. Gentleman mistook this for the national Vote for hospitals in Ireland. The present Vote was for the maintenance of the inmates of an institution that was abolished when the Poor Law was introduced into Ireland. The Committee which had been sitting on this subject, and which was composed in the majority of Englishmen, had reported most favourably on behalf of these institutions, and, if the Government would postpone these Votes until the Report of that Committee was presented, they would find the opinion of that Committee entirely adverse to any reduction in the grants heretofore made to these institutions.
§ MR. MITCHELLsaid, that the salaries granted to the medical officers in Ireland were much smaller than to the officers of the Vaccine Establishment in England. He was no Irishman—but he wished for justice to Ireland. He therefore charged the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams) with inconsistency in objecting to this Vote and not to the former one.
§ Mr. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that no scientific institution in the country had conferred greater benefit on the nation at large than the Vaccine Establishment, and not on this country only, but on Ireland and the Colonies, and perhaps on the whole world. This was more than could be said of the Dublin Hospital, or any similar institution.
§ LORD NAASsaid, he must still vindicate the claim of the hospitals in Dublin public grants on the ground that whereas St. Thomas's Hospital, Guy's Hospital, and other hospitals in London had been endowed with grants out of the revenues of the monastery on which the hospitals in Dublin stood had been sequestrated without any endowment being made for the hospitals.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that all the hospitals in this country were maintained by voluntary contributions, and not a single sixpence was voted out of the public revenues of the country.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that after voting large sums for the National Gallery and such other purposes in this country, it certainly required all the modesty of the hon. Member for Lambeth to refuse a miserable pittance to the hospitals in Dublin.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, he thought they were discussing many of these questions in the dark, as they did every year. Probably injustice was done by paying persons who ought not to be paid, and underpaying others. He would suggest that in future a Committee should be appointed at the beginning of the Session, to whom the whole of the Estimates should be submitted, to be by them thoroughly investigated. The miserable explanations they heard from the Treasury bench were most unsatisfactory. Were this course adopted, the public money would be economised, and the public service would greatly benefit.
§ MR. VANCEsaid, he was in favour of the Votes being postponed till the Report of the Committee was before the House. The majority of that Committee were English Members, who were generally prejudiced against these grants; but, after hearing the evidence, they were all but unanimous in favour of the Votes being not only continued, but increased.
§ MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he would remind the Committee that there were so many hon. Members who took peculiar views, or held crotchets upon many of these Miscellaneous Estimates, that the suggestion of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) could not be too strongly enforced. For instance, there was the Maynooth Vote and the Regium Donum grant, which some hon. Member or other invariably made his hobby, and as an illustration of what he meant, he would venture to say that the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) would not be quite so fast asleep to the argument if the former of these two Votes was then under discussion. It would save a great deal of time if these Estimates were referred to a Select Committee, for the purpose of arrangement, and deciding which should be retained on the Votes and which should be transferred to the Consolidated Fund.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he begged to observe, in reply to the suggestion 1072 of the hon. Member for Manchester, that a Select Committee had been appointed to consider the Estimates only a few years ago, and they had taken a great deal of evidence, which would be found on referring to the Report. On the particular subject before them the Committee had referred to the engagement at the time of the Union, and gave an opinion that the grants should be diminished. Though an inquiry might now lead to a different conclusion, they could not in the present year very well take into consideration any increase of the Estimates for the Dublin hospitals. They should consider the Report of the Committee that had recently sat on the subject before proposing the Estimates for the next year, but he did not think that any alteration could now be made, and he hoped the Committee would agree to the Vote. He did not think it would be necessary to appoint any general Committee, but if there was any point on which further inquiry was necessary he certainly should nut object to it.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, he had no faith in ordinary Select Committees, for he remembered having sat with the noble Lord on the Salaries Committee, which recommended that reductions should be made in the public salaries to the extent of 75,000l. a year, but until this moment that recommendation had been entirely disregarded by the House. What he should wish to see done was, that at the commencement of every Session a Special Committee should he appointed to consider and arrange the Estimates, so that they should not come before the House simply as having been revised by Mr. Secretary this, or Mr. Secretary that, or Mr. Official somebody else, who had an office in Downing Street or its neighbourhood. Such a Committee was usually appointed at the beginning of a Session by the House of Representatives in the United States; while in France, under Louis Philippe and the Republic, a similar plan also prevailed, and he could not see why the experiment should not be tried in this country with an equal chance of success.
§ MR. BRIGHTIt would not be a permanent Committee; it would be a Committee appointed at the commencement of every Session.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, even that qualification would not alter his objection 1073 to the Committee, as such a Committee would eventually sink into a mere matter; of form, and might even become the vehicle of extravagance, rather than economy. With regard to the particular Vote under discussion, he thought it involved a question of principle—namely, whether they should vote for Ireland what they did not vote for England or Scotland. In both England and Scotland these hospitals were supported by voluntary contributions, and he could see no reason why Ireland should not do the same for her charities, as she was rich enough nowadays in all conscience. The Vaccine Establishment, to which allusion had been made, was open to the people of the three countries, and he deprecated Ireland appealing in formâ pauperis in this matter.
§ MR. GROGANsaid, he must contend that the evidence on which the Committee had recommended the reduction of these grants was almost nil. Such was the feeling of the noble Earl now Foreign Secretary, but formerly Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with regard to the importance of these hospitals, that notwithstanding the Report of the Committee, he prevailed upon the Treasury to continue them on the reduced scale.
Vote agreed to; as were the remaining Votes—
(23.) 11,859l., House of Industry.
(24.) 500l., Female Orphan House.
(25.) 1,215l., Westmoreland Lock Hospital, Dublin.
(26.) 500l., Lying-in Hospital.
(27.) 795l., Doctor Stephens' Hospital.
(28.) 1,900l., House of Recovery.
(29.) 250l., Incurables.
House resumed.