IRISH BOARD OF EDUCATION.

HC Deb 28 June 1853 vol 128 cc909-12

MR. WALPOLE

said, he wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland with reference to the proceedings of the National Board of Education in Ireland; and in order that the question might be fully understood, he begged to call attention to the eighth rule established by the Commissioners:— The Commissioners do not insist on the Scripture Lessons, Lessons on the Truth of Christianity, or book of Sacred Poetry, being read in any of the National schools; nor do they allow them to be read during the time of secular or literary instruction in any school attended by children whose parents or guardians object to their being so read. In such case the Commissioners prohibit the use of them, except at the times of religious instruction, when the persons giving it may use these books or not as they think proper. Hitherto, the construction put upon the rule was this—that the parent of any child might object to his being taught a particular book which was sanctioned by the Commissioners of National Education; but it was not the practice that the objection of the parent of a single child should amount to an objection to that book being taught to other children in the schools. It was now reported, and apparently on authority, that the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland had come to two resolutions, whether formally or not he could not say; the one was that Archbishop Whately 's Evidences of Christianity should be expunged from the list of books taught in the National Schools in Ireland; and the other was, that if any child's parent objected to the use of any single book, that objection was a sufficient reason for excluding that book, not from that child only, but from the whole school. Without wishing to give any opinion on the subject, he begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland have rejected or expunged from the lists of books to be used in the national schools, the Evidences of Christianity, by the Archbishop of Dublin; whether they have determined that if any child's parent should object to the use of any single book, it is a sufficient reason for excluding such book, not from that child only, but from the whole school?

SIR JOHN YOUNG

said, he was obliged to confess that it was extremely difficult to give anything like an explicit answer to the questions just put to him by the right hon. Gentleman, at that moment, He believed, however, that the practice obtaining had been pretty much in accordance with what the right hon. Gentleman had stated; and he thought that there would be a general uniformity of opinion as to the importance of the subject brought under the notice of the House. No doubt it would be very unfortunate indeed if it were found that any portion of the Commissioners' arrangements, which had been organised with a view to the promotion of a united system of education, had been so disturbed as to impede that unity of action which was so desirable. The House must, however, recollect the basis upon which this system was built. When the Earl of Derby, then Lord Stanley, established it, it was intended that it should afford the means of a combined literary, but separate religious, instruction for the people of Ireland. So early as the year 1842, the resolution to which the right hon. Gentleman had adverted was established. In answer, however, to the question of the right hon. Gentleman, he was enabled to inform the House, that though no formal decision had been as yet come to by the Commissioners, means had been taken to ascertain the deliberate opinion of the various members of the Board upon the point at issue. The rule, then, upon which the Commissioners acted was this: they did not insist upon the Scriptural lessons being read in any National school, nor did they allow them to be read during the hours of secular instruction in any school where the parents or guardians objected to their being read; and in such cases the Commissioners prohibited their use, except at the times of religious instruction, when persons giving the instruction might use them or not, as they thought proper. He (Sir J. Young) would not offer any opinion upon the merits of that rule, though of course every hon. Gentleman was allowed to draw his own conclusions from it. Nor would he say whether, if the parents or guardians of a single child objected to any particular book, that according to the proper interpretation of the rule, the book in question ought to be wholly excluded from the school. At any rate the rule was not a new one; but it was proposed to alter it, and that the child should not have the power of relegating such book to the hours of separate religious instruction. A resolution to that effect was moved, and he (Sir J. Young) believed it would have been assented to by a majority of the Board, provided only the lessons taken from the Evidences of Christianity were omitted from the list. Now, with reference to the first question of the right hon. Gentleman, as to whether the Evidences of Christianity, by Archbishop Whately, had been expunged, he might say that the Roman Catholics, and many others, had taken objection to that work on the ground of its character being polemical; and on that account he hoped that those hon. Gentlemen who were prepared to give an opinion upon this question would not come forward without having first read the book. On the work he would not pronounce any opinion; but though it was a very short one, barely containing 140 small pages, he did not believe that any one could read it without pleasure, or without being struck at the admirable condensation of Scriptural knowledge and logical acumen which it presented. On the main question, however, he was not prepared to give any decided opinion until the Commissioners had placed before the public their decision. Still it should not be supposed that any very great alteration would be made, even if the book were withdrawn from the Commissioners' list. For he saw, from a report which had been published of the various works supplied by the Board's contractor, an estimate of the number of copies required for a single year of each book. Thus he found, that of the First Book of Lessons, 260,000 were required; of the next 152,000; of the third, 76,000; of the fourth, 41,500, and so on; while, when he came to this book, Easy Lessons upon Christianity, he saw that only 1,200 numbers were called for, that was, about one of those books to every four schools.

MR. WALPOLE

said, the first question had been answered in this way—though not formally—the Evidences of Christianity are expunged. He wished to have a distinct answer to the second question—if the parent of a child object to a single book being used in a National school, is it a sufficient reason to exclude that book, not merely from the instruction of that child, but from general use in the schools?

SIR JOHN YOUNG

said, the practice would appear to have been, if an objection were made on the part of the parent of a single child, the reading of the book objected to was relegated to the hours of separate religious instruction in the way he had described.