§ Order for Third Reading read,
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
§ MR. CONOLLYsaid he hoped the third reading would not be gone into at that late hour (25 minutes past 12), as it involved questions of great importance, and he had given notice of an Amendment, to read it a third time in six months.
§ MR. GROGANsaid, he should support the appeal of the hon. Member (Mr. Conolly). The Bill was of the greatest importance to the Irish distillers, and they complained of the injustice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's measure. The effect of the Bill would be to render the exportation of Irish whisky impossible. He held in his hand tables showing that the decrease by leakage was double that which the Government proposed to allow for.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he could not accede to there-quest to appoint a night for the third reading of the Bill. A night had already been appointed for discussion, and on that occasion the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Conolly) did not think fit to make his appearance. The great mass of financial and other business now remaining to be disposed of, made it impossible for the Government to appoint another night for the discussion of this question.
§ MR. CONOLLYsaid, he thought that the question was one of too great importance to be disposed of at that late hour, for it was not, he considered, a mere fiscal 413 question, but one concerning the demoralisation of a large class of the community. He had mixed with the population of the north-western parts of Ireland, and they required very little stimulus to be driven to the illicit distillation of spirits. Such had been the immediate effects of the measure of the late Sir Robert Peel; and the evil did not rest there, for when a body of men was found banded together for illegal purposes, there would be a focus for everything else that was bad. There would be, also, considerable difficulty in carrying out the law, and he warned the right hon. Gentleman not to lose sight of that difficulty. When Sir Robert Peel proposed his measure, the immediate result was that the gaols were filled with persons convicted under the excise laws. In Donegal, the county which he had the honour to represent, that was certainly the case, and certainly such a state of things ought not to be encouraged. Considering, then, that the proposed measure would be injurious to the social character and morality of Ireland, he felt it his duty to move the adjournment of the debate.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought that the hon. Member for Donegal had given the best possible answer to his own opinion, that it was not practicable at that hour to discuss the merits of the Bill, by himself commencing a discussion on the subject. Although he was unable to concur in the view of the hon. Gentleman as regarded this measure, he was willing to allow its great importance; but, without wishing to disparage the motives of the hon. Gentleman in entering into this discussion, he must say that he thought that his remarks would apply more to the county which he represented than to the whole of Ireland; but, in considering a measure of finance, it was not expedient to consider only the condition of one county but of the whole country. It had been said that the Government had now reproduced the measure submitted to Parliament by Sir Robert Peel in 1841. But they did not propose the same measure, and the measure which they did propose was brought forward under different circumstances. Sir Robert Peel proposed to increase the duty on spirits 1s. per gallon. The present measure, deducting the allowance for wastage, increased the duty little more than 6d. per gallon. Then with respect to the difference of circumstances. The failure of the duty proposed by Sir Robert Peel was not owing to its 414 being simply an increase of 1s. per gallon, but it was demonstrable from the figures on the table, that the failure was in a great measure owing to the powerful and remarkable temperance movement of Father Mathew, under which the consumption of spirits was rapidly diminishing. But there were other circumstances which ought also to be taken into view. Things were very different now from what they were in 1842, and it was much easier to make a change in the administration of affairs in Ireland now than it was at that time. As an instance, he might refer to the recent extension of the income tax to that country. The Government placed great reliance on the improved administrative means at their command, and did not foresee any very great difficulty in collecting this increased duty. The Government had come to the conclusion, that the services of the constabulary force might render most powerful assistance in the collection of the spirit duty in Ireland. Their intimate know-lodge of the population, of their habits, of their dwellings, and of what was going on upon every spot in the country, would enable them to lend the greatest help to the revenue department, irrespective of their more direct duties as a constabulary police. The question had not been dealt with by the Treasury alone. It would have been absurd, on the part of the Government, if they had adopted a measure of the kind irrespective of the opinions of those who were acquainted with the country. They had therefore consulted the opinions of Gentlemen, not only of that House, but of those who were the responsible servants of the Crown, and engaged in the administration of the government of Ireland. Those were the general grounds upon which the proposal was made, and those grounds had already been amply discussed. Those were the grounds upon which the House had decided, by a majority of nearly three to one, to confirm the principle of increasing these duties, and he hoped the House would continue to support that principle.
§ MR. P. O'BRIENsaid, that, while adhering to the opinion he had formerly expressed, that illicit distillation would be greatly increased by this measure, yet, considering that on the second reading of the Bill, and when in Committee, the objections to it might have been made, he did not think hon. Members would be justified in taking a division on the third reading of the Bill. Still, there was the question of wastage in bond; that was one 415 which was greatly agitated in Ireland, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would even now give it his serious consideration.
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he must remind the right hon. Gentleman, that, in his great Budget speech it was intimated that the Government meant to make some new arrangement on the subject of wastage. With regard to the employment of the constabulary force, his objection to that scheme was not in a fiscal but in a social and moral point of view. The House was certainly entitled to some explanation with regard to the arrangements for the combination of the existing revenue police and the constabulary, for the right hon. Gentleman had acknowledged the propriety of not involving the constabulary in the unpopularity attached to the revenue police. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not introduce a new source of moral disorganisation in Ireland; He did not wish for delay merely to defeat this measure, but he desired the third reading to be postponed, in order that time might be afforded to consider whether the proposed scheme was calculated to benefit the country in a moral and social point of view.
§ MR. H. HERBERTsaid, though not at all wishing to retard the progress of the Bill, still, he thought, some little forbearance should be shown to those who wished to have further time for consideration, as the employment of the constabulary force in the collection of the revenue was a matter of serious importance. In the county he had the honour to represent, and which was one of the counties in Ireland which had never been disgraced by outrage, an extra police force was sent down in 1845, in consequence of the state of things caused by the famine. Two years ago the grand jury memorialised the Lord Lieutenant to remove that additional force, which cost the county 1,200l. a year. The Lord Lieutenant sent word that the requisition must be made by a meeting of magistrates. Accordingly a second memorial was adopted, but to this day the county was subjected to that additional tax. The employment of a police supported by local taxation for the collection of the Imperial revenue, was a point of considerable importance, and called for the serious attention of the right hon. Gentleman.
§ SIR JOHN YOUNGsaid, there seemed to be much misapprehension as to the intentions of the Government with regard to 416 the employment of the police. It had been the subject of very anxious consideration. The officers of the revenue and of the constabulary force had been consulted upon it; not only the heads of the police, but those who were actively engaged in its duties, and most conversant with the nature of those duties; and the opinion arrived at was, that the constabulary force could take upon themselves the duty of assisting the revenue police without at all interfering with or affecting their regular or ordinary duties. Still, however, the Government had not come to any conclusion upon the subject. They had not determined to amalgamate the two forces, nor had they come to a decision that the constabulary force should be employed in levying this spirit tax. All that was now proposed to be done was of an initiatory character. It was proposed that the revenue police should be left on an effective footing, and that the constabulary force should be used in support of the revenue police, so far as was consistent with their other duties, and with especial reference to the local information they could render. It was in fact intended, in the first instance, as an experiment. As to the imposition of any new and onerous duties on the constabulary body, he could assure the House that no new or onerous duties whatever would be thrown upon them.
§ LORD NAASsaid, there were two points for consideration before the House. The first point was, as to the policy of the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer; the second point was, as to the amount of allowance for collection. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had laid before them nothing more than a vague plan for enlisting the services of the constabulary in the collection of information. Now, he maintained that the addition of even a penny a gallon to the existing duty upon spirits, without a very considerable addition to the powers at present enjoyed by the Excise for collection, would be, not only dangerous, but impossible. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite was not prepared to show that he could employ the constabulary in the collection of the revenue, in the same manner in which the revenue police were now employed, he (Lord Naas) was of opinion that it would be perfectly absurd to think that they would secure by any other means a sufficient guarantee that the additional duty proposed could be collected. He thought that they ought not to proceed any further 417 that evening with the discussion of the Bill.
§ MR. CAIRNSsaid, he was opposed to the employment of the constabulary in the collection of spirit duties, as that would tend to lower the moral position of the force. But, bad as that plan would be, what was now proposed was worse, for it was contemplated to make the constabulary common spies and informers for the revenue department in every village throughout Ireland. No respect, no safety even, could be expected for the constabulary under such circumstances; and, for the sake of the peace of Ireland, he asked the House not to make them spies and informers.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he quite agreed with every word of the hon. Member who had last spoken. He could not conceive that anything more injurious to the character and efficiency of the constabulary could be invented than the proposed plan of making them collect information for the revenue police.
CAPTAIN JONESsaid, he fully concurred in all the objections which had been urged against the employment of the police in collecting the revenue. As to the spirit duties, he must tell the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was the Act of Sir Robert Peel in 1841 which had reduced the revenue in 1841, and had increased illicit distillation. In 1841 the number of detections was 1,801; of persons in gaol, 171. In 1842, when the Act had had time to work, the number of detections was 1,895; of persons in gaol, 441. Next year the first head had increased to 3,456, the second to 911; and the spirits brought to duty fell off 5,546,000 gallons. Last year the number of detections was 2,904; of persons in gaol, 557. Every attempt to increase the duty was attended with increase of crime and of illicit distillation, and with a reduction of the revenue. He believed that at the present time about 3,000,000 gallons of spirits consumed in Ireland was supplied by illicit distillation. The state of the mountain districts was just the same now as when Sir Robert Peel brought in his measure, and the low selling price of oats, compared with the high duty, gave a premium on illicit distillation.
§ VISCOUNT GALWAYsaid, that as one who had not an acre of land in Ireland, he perhaps might be listened to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he suggested to him to adjourn the debate, seeing the 418 feeling which existed among the Irish Members. ["No, no!"] Well, he had seen enough of the Irish Members to believe they would beat him if he did not yield.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
§ The House divided: —Ayes 34; Noes 113: Majority 79.
§ Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
§ LORD NAASsaid, he must complain that the House had heard no statement of the duties which the Irish constabulary were to discharge with reference to the collection of the revenue. The right hon. Gentleman ought to give them a minute and detailed explanation of the nature of the service on which that noble force was to be employed—not a statement made now, and on the spur of the moment, but a clear, definite, and satisfactory statement on some future and fitting opportunity. Till that was done, he would oppose the third reading of the Bill, and he now moved the adjournment of the House.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the very reasonable request of the noble Lord was, that a minute and detailed account should be given of every little point in connexion with the service of the constabulary with regard to the collection of the revenue. Now, he could assure the noble Lord,, that neither that night nor on the spur of the moment, nor any other night, would he receive from him, or the Government, a statement of the kind he had asked for. And the reason why he would not give such a statement was, that they must be guided solely by experience in the matter, as this was a case in which the judgments of the most experienced and responsible persons could only lead them up to a certain point. They must proceed very cautiously in adopting the services of the constabulary for this purpose, and therefore it was impossible to give such a minute explanation as the noble Lord required. The request of the noble Lord was most unreasonable: it was equivalent to saying, you shall not go into the water till you have learned to swim. He was afraid that if this Bill was not to be read a third time till that request was complied with, the Session would be prolonged to a period far beyond the ordinary limits.
§ MR. NAPIERsaid, he thought it a reasonable request made by the noble Lord, especially as he understood, from what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the 419 Chancellor of the Exchequer on a former evening, that the Government had a plan prepared. Instead of bandying words from one side of the House to the other, which only created acrimonious feelings, it would he far better for the Government to make a statement of the manner in which it was intended the system should work. He, for one, would be content to be bound by the opinion of Sir Duncan M'Gregor as to the employment of the force in the collection of the revenue.
§ SIR JOHN YOUNGsaid, he had had something to do with consulting Sir Duncan M'Gregor and others of the police officers under him in Ireland upon this subject. Sir Duncan M'Gregor stated that some years ago his opinion had been very adverse to any consolidation of these two forces, but that in consequence of the opinions to the contrary given by some of the best-informed officers, and by men most conversant with the districts in which illicit distillation was carried on, he had yielded up his own opinions, and was now not adverse to the consolidation of the two forces. Upon full consideration of the subject, however, it did not appear to the Government desirable that that consolidation should take place at once. There were various reasons why that consolidation should not take place; but this, it was stated, might fairly be done without in any way damaging the morale of the constabulary. The members of that force knew the haunts and habits of the people, knew where illicit distillation went on, and the Government proposed to bring the two forces a little nearer together—to make available for the one the information which the other possessed—not to turn them into spies, but to make available for the public service the information possessed by a public department paid out of the public funds. If, in a future year, changes were found necessary, they would be adopted, but, at present, it was only thought advisable to proceed step by step, and this was the first step. The London police gave this information and performed these duties; so did the Dublin police, and if the House gave weight to Sir Duncan M'Gregor's opinion, and to that of all his best-informed officers, that advice would be to take this very step. The Government had adopted this plan after full consideration; they had acted most cautiously in the matter; and there was no room for any of the objurgations thrown out by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, it might be very right to transfer the duties of the revenue force to the ordinary police, but to make the one the detectors to the other was the very worst system that could be devised. The right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Young) had explained the plan, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had refused to do; and all he could say of it was the right hon. Baronet had better have imitated the conduct of his Colleague, and kept it concealed. He did not think, however, that Sir Duncan M'Gregor was a better judge of the matter than the Irish country gentlemen who were in communication with the people, and who administered the laws; though he doubted much whether that gentleman would give an opinion which would have the effect of making the force he commanded a set of spies.
§ MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, that though this was a great question about spirits, and though he was an Irish Gentleman, he confessed he was not very full of the subject. He thought, however, they ought all to concur in the view that as it was now half-past two o'clock in the morning, it was high time they should be permitted to retire to repose. When the Gentlemen opposite were in office, it had been their constant habit to introduce important Irish questions at very late hours; and when he had often protested against that practice, they had invariably imputed to him that he was offering a factious opposition to necessary measures of their Government. They had since changed their position, and were themselves now engaged in a course similar to that which they had formerly condemned. For his own part, he had then stated that no matter what Government might be in office, he would equally object to proceeding with important Irish business at an unreasonably late hour, and he would therefore now concur in requesting of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consent to a postponement of the debate upon the Bill before the House. He believed that time would be gained by adopting that course, for already there had been nearly two hours consumed in discussing the mere question of adjourning the debate. The hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. P. O'Brien), who was well acquainted with the subject of the present Bill, had stated that there was an important matter upon which he and other Irish Members were anxious to express their views, in regard to the question of wastage of spirits in bond; and he 421 believed there was another matter of equal importance, as to the unfair advantage given to the Scotch distiller by the drawback allowed to him of one-half of the duty on malt used in making Scotch spirits. In reference to the contemplated employment of the Irish constabulary to aid in collecting the public revenue, he would take this opportunity of urging upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the propriety of at once relieving the several counties in Ireland from those charges they were at present subject to, for maintaining a body of extra police no longer required for any local purposes. In the county which he represented, the charge for extra police amounted to no less a sum than 6,000l. a year. It would be quite unfair to continue this liability, now that the constabulary of Ireland were to be employed in aid of the revenue police. He trusted that, when the proper tithe arrived, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) would not fail to attend to this matter. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite had now expressed themselves very strongly against employing Irish policemen as spies. He perfectly concurred in every objection to their being used for any such purpose. But he would remind those hon. Gentlemen that when they were in office, they had not exhibited any such sensitiveness; and whenever a legitimate opportunity might arise he would undertake to demonstrate that, whilst the late Government was in office, Irish policemen had been employed as spies in the most odious sense of the term. They had been so used during the last general elections; and, as one instance, he might refer to a hook called A Fortnight in Ireland, lately published by Sir F. Head, who had obtained every information to enable him to libel the Catholic clergy, through Members of the late Irish Government, aided by Sir Duncan M'Gregor and a spy system introduced during the last general election into the Irish police force. He defied any impartial person to read portions of that hook, and entertain any doubt respecting the accuracy of his present statement. But he would reserve any further observations on that subject until a more opportune occasion. He would again press the right hon. Gentleman to consent to a postponement of the debate, as he believed no time would he saved by continuing it at this very late hour—or, rather, this early hour of the morning.
§ MR. CONOLLY,amid loud cries of "Divide, divide!" said, he wished to say 422 that, in his county, they were paying a large sum for the maintenance of the police in order to preserve the peace; and now they were to be charged with this additional duty of collecting the revenue.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he did not think that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Napier) would coincide in the opinion that the views of Sir Duncan M'Gregor were valueless, for if such were the case, the right hon. and learned Gentleman would scarcely have looked for them. He thought the best course to he adopted was to read the Bill now a third time, and take the further discussion on the final stage.
§ CAPTAIN MAGANsaid, he thought the suggestion of the noble Lord a very fair one. He wished, however, to refer for one moment to what had occurred that evening in another place. He had very great respect for the noble Earl the late Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but he could not help saying that he had felt the greatest pity for that noble Lord on that afternoon as he heard him reading the affidavit of a certain James Bourke, one of the greatest malefactors that ever lived. He would undertake to say that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would but place at his disposal a sum of 5s. out of the Consolidated Fund — he (Captain Magan) himself would not spend it for such a purpose—that he would bring the said James Bourke to the table of that House, and he would get him to swear that the paper on which the affidavit was written was black, and that the ink was white; and with regard to his colleague, he (Capt. Magan) bad ascertained on the most respectable evidence, that he had sworn that he knew a certain public-house from the sign-board which was displayed upon a particular day, and it afterwards turned out that on that very day the sign-board was in a carpenter's shop painting in Athlone. With regard to the attestation in the case of Sir Richard Levinge, he was perfectly satisfied that there was not one man capable of giving disinterested evidence in that neighbourhood. All of them were violent partisans; and he would say that if Sir Richard Levinge had been returned, that every one of the Brown family would have been provided for in the police. The whole story about the practices at the last election for the county of Westmeath were utterly untrue. So far from it that it was perfectly notorious that the unfortu- 423 nate farmers were quivering in their shoes, through dread of the landlords, while they were giving their votes according to their consciences. He could assure the House that Sir Richard Levinge was more of an old woman than a man; and he (Capt. Magan) did not want to take refuge he-hind the forms of that House. When Sir Richard Levinge read his (Capt. Magan's) words in the morning, he was quite at liberty to consider them as having been used outside it.
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he must protest against the introduction of such topics at such an hour, and the language in which they were clothed. He demanded as a right that the right hon. Gentleman should consent to the adjournment of the House, or, at all events, if he would not consent to that course, let the Government have the decency to listen to the objections of the Irish Members to their measure.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not feel justified in supplying the House with the detailed information required, for it would be very impolitic to do so.
§ LORD NAASsaid, he wished to know whether it was the intention of the Government to propose any legislation on the subject of the amalgamation of the constabulary and revenue police during the present Session, for he assumed that an Act of Parliament would be necessary on the subject before they could employ the constabulary in the collection of the revenue?
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that it was not the intention of the Government to propose any such measure during the present Session.
§ VISCOUNT GALWAYhoped, for the sake of Mr. Speaker, if from no other motive, the Government would accede to the proposal for adjourning the House.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
§ The House divided: —Ayes 28; Noes 109: Majority 81.
§ Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he would suggest that the hon. Baronet the Member for Westminster (Sir J. Shelley) should give the House his lucid views upon the subject.
§ SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, he could only characterise the conduct of those who 424 were bringing forward these repeated Motions for adjournment as factious.
§ LORD NAASsaid, he must deny the imputation of factiousness, for his question was relative to the incorporation of the two branches of the police force in Ireland, and was a natural corollary to the measure of the Government. He was sufficiently acquainted with the state of the law to be able to say that it was absolutely necessary for the Government to introduce a new Bill before they could call on the constabulary force of Ireland to act under the regulations of this Bill.
§ MR. PHINNsaid, that the best practical reproof which the noble Lord (Lord Naas) and hon. Gentlemen on the other side had received was conveyed to them by the conduct of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Napier), who, having put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question, and having received a reply which must be satisfactory to every candid man in that House, had withdrawn himself from their company, and had desisted from an opposition which he seemed to think not warranted either by the forms or the spirit of the House.
§ MR. VANSITTARTsaid, he considered that the Opposition had been most unjustly treated in this matter, and he should support the Motion for the adjournment of the debate.
§ COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he would not allow the Irish Members, for whom he had great respect, to be bullied by the Government.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLSir, any one who has had experience in this House knows that when a minority—however small, and however unreasonable may be their views — choose to go on dividing through the night, there is probably no advantage to be gained by persisting in opposing them. Therefore, seeing that we should only have a recurrence of angry speeches and divisions, I certainly should think it would now be the wiser course for this House not to proceed to the consideration of the third reading of this Bill. What the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Phinn) who has just spoken has said, is perfectly true. There was one person (Mr. Napier) on the opposite side of the House who took a fair and reasonable course. I can say for him what I cannot say for others—that he was not factious. He stated his objections, and an answer having been given to them, he withdrew from the House, to show that he would not give any further coun- 425 tenance to this opposition. A minority may certainly persist in dividing the House, but their conduct both by this House and the country at large will be deemed very factious. That character must remain with them, but I shall not oppose the Motion for adjourning the debate.
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: —Ayes 21; Noes 103; Majority 82.
§ Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Third Time."
§ MR. ROSS MOOREsaid, he objected to proceeding with the measure without deliberation.
§ MR. BOWYERsaid, he would suggest that the Bill should be now read a third time, reserving the question as to the machinery and as to the employment or non-employment of the police force. He and his friends were strongly opposed to this measure, but they had seen that they could not defeat the Bill, and they might depend upon it if it were not read a third time now that it would be upon some future occasion.
§ MR. CONOLLYsaid, he thought that individually he had been ill-treated by the Government, who had acted in a tyrannical and unjust manner.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had at an early period stated his strong objections to this Bill; and to those objections he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) bad given his best attention. Upon the last occasion on which this question was discussed, the hon. Gentleman, who professed great interest in the matter, had not thought it worth his while to attend to give his vote; and he put it to the hon. Gentleman now, whether if the Succession Tax Bill had been concluded by ten o'clock, the hon. Gentleman would have been in his place to vote upon this subject, which he said so deeply interested his constituents. The hon. Gentleman had not spent the whole day in anxious discussion of public matters. He had not made his appearance until midnight, and then he came in that garb which showed that he had been engaged in convivial occupations. In fact, the hon. Member had come fresh into the field to oppose those who had been engaged for eight hours in the pastime of discussion. The hon, Gentleman had been playing the stale game of converting a minority into a 426 majority; but, so long as any resolution or spirit remained in the majority, he trusted that that course never would be sanctioned.
CAPTAIN KNOXsaid, that the whole of these proceedings had been occasioned by the taunting and sneering manner of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ SIR ARTHUR BROOKEsaid, he begged to ask if the right hon. Gentleman would assent to the reasonable proposition of the hon. Member for Dundalk (Mr, Bowver).
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied that, as regarded the separation of the machinery from the Bill, that was effected already. The House was not called upon to give any sanction to the employment of the constabulary. The whole arrangement would take place under the authority of the Executive, upon their own responsibility, subject to the obligation of coming to that House for the purpose of sanctioning whatever they did.
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had read them a lecture about minorities ruling majorities: would the right hon. Gentleman consent to take the opinion of the majority of Irish Members?
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
§ The House divided: —Ayes 18; Noes 94; Majority 76.
§ Question again proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ Bill read 3o.
§ Further Proceeding on Third Reading adjourned till Monday next.
§ The House adjourned at half after Three o'clock, till Monday next.