§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONSeeing my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Layard) in his place, I wish to make an appeal to him on the subject of the notice which stands in his name for Monday next, and to request him, on the part of the Government, to consider whether in all respects it may not he more advisable to follow the example set by those persons in the other House of Parliament who had a similar notice on the books, and postpone, without naming any particular day for the present 1421 the notice he had given. It is obvious that the dissuasion to which that notice must inevitably lead, will, in the present state of public affairs, be attended with inconvenience to the public service—not that Her Majesty's Government, or any Member of it, would be led to swerve from their duty by abandoning that prudent reserve which it would be their obligation to follow, but that it might be expected, and probably would happen, that in the course of that discussion things might be said by other persons which would create unnecessary irritation, and thereby tend to thwart and defeat any efforts which might be made for bringing about a peaceful termination of the present crisis. It cannot, I apprehend, be necessary for any purpose which my hon. Friend has in view; for, if I understand the nature of his notice, his objects are three: first,, to obtain information, if any information can prudently be given; next, to assure the Government of support, in the event unfortunately of support being required; and, thirdly, to hold the Government to their duty, if in the opinion of my hon. Friend, they were likely to swerve from the performance of it. Now, in regard to information, none can be given, consistently with the duties of the Government, beyond that already in possession of the House, and the whole world. Nothing, therefore, can be obtained with regard to that object. With respect to support, I can assure my hon. Friend that Her Majesty's Government require no assurance; they do not suppose that, in any unfortunate event which may lead them to appeal to this House and to the country for support in a just cause, that support would not be cheerfully and cordially afforded. We need no other assurance of that than the knowledge that we are sitting in a British Parliament. With respect to the last topic, as to any idea that Her Majesty's Government may require a stimulus for the performance of their duty, I think it is sufficient to observe that when two great countries like England and France are united in a common course of policy, are aiming at a common object, are guided by common interests, and inspired by most perfect and unreserved confidence in each other—I say that it cannot, I am sure, enter into the mind of any man to suppose that any temporary forbearance which the Governments of two such great countries show, arises from want of determination, or that the most conciliatory course can be construed into a symptom of timidity or weakness. I trust, without 1422 any exhortation from my hon. Friend, or from any other quarter, the honour and interests of England and France are in safe keeping, and that honour and those interests are inseparably bound up with the great and important interest of Europe. I should hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend, yielding to the appeal I now make to him, will pursue the course which has been pursued in the other House of Parliament, confident that when the moment arrives when Her Majesty's Government think information can be given, that information will be given, according to the circumstances of the case, to the fullest extent that those circumstances and those interests may appear to render desirable. I now beg to move that the House at its rising adjourn to Monday next.
§ MR. LAYARDSir, in rising to answer the question which has been put to me by the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, I trust the House will permit me to say one word on what occurred yesterday as to deferring this Motion, because it appears that I have not been rightly understood. I beg distinctly to state, that I am unconnected with any party, and that in giving notice of that Motion, I brought it forward as an independent Member, in the conscientious belief that it was my duty to do so. Of course, the appeal made to me yesterday, could not be resisted; and when I was informed that the noble Lord the Member for the City of London (Lord J. Russell) could not be present this evening, I did not hesitate to defer that Motion until Monday. But another question, and a much more serious question, has now arisen. I am requested to defer this Motion, unconditionally, and without limit. Now, allow me to remind the House, that it was not myself that fixed this day as the proper day to bring forward that Motion, but it was the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, who stated, in my absence, that Government would give this day for bringing on the question. With respect to what occurred yesterday, it appears it was a Member of Her Majesty's Government who named Monday next. I had nothing to do in naming either today or Monday as the fit day for bringing forward this Motion; and, consequently, as Her Majesty's Government did name Monday, I thought the matter of convenience had then been taken into consideration. I conceive I am labouring under great difficulty and very heavy responsibility. It is my own conviction, that, so far from the 1423 discussion of the question in this House originating any dangerous results, it would be of the utmost importance in bringing this momentous question to a satisfactory conclusion. I need scarcely point to the very great alarm felt in the country from the uncertainty prevailing on this matter. Not only in England, but on the Continent, that alarm is felt, and I confess it seems to me scarcely fair towards that ally with whom, and we learn it for the first time on this occasion, we are cordially acting, that the report should be prevalent in this country—a report which may or may not be true—that there have been dissensions in certain quarters which have led to this uncertainty. It may or may not be truly reported that there are dissensions on this highly important subject. Now, negotiations, in the common acceptation of the term, are at the present moment scarcely going on. What are the facts of the case? Here is a great nation which has sent a powerful army into two provinces of a neighbouring nation, and taken possession of those provinces. A manifesto has been issued, and, I believe, this country is little aware of the immense importance and enormous danger of that manifesto. It was an appeal to millions, in the name of their religion, to rise and fight for that religion. I trust it may not have the effect, but it may possibly evoke passions which no man on earth can control. I believe the time has never happened when such proceedings as I have described have occurred on the continent of Europe, without this House having some information, I do not say how satisfactory, laid before it; and I must be allowed to remind the House that this House has received no little of information on the subject from Her Majesty's Government. The only information given has been derived from the official information of the official organ of the French Government. I say, in that state of uncertainty, the trade and commerce of this country have felt very considerable alarm; and I think it only reasonable that some information, that some satisfactory explanation, should be given by Her Majesty's Government. But if the noble Lord will rise, and, in somewhat more distinct language, tell me that the consequence of this Motion is dangerous to the public service, of course I cannot hesitate in the course which I shall pursue. At the same time, I appeal to this House and to the country to bear me out—that I am no longer under any responsibility, and that 1424 the responsibility falls upon Her Majesty's Government. Of course, I was ready to take that responsibility which such a Motion would throw upon me; and unless it were distinctly understood that Her Majesty's Government now take that responsibility in delaying this Motion, I should be guilty of a very great dereliction of public duty. I repeat, that if the noble Lord will rise and state that it is his belief I should endanger the public service by pressing this Motion, I shall not hesitate to abstain from doing so.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONI think, Sir, I stated as plainly as words can put it, that I thought the discussion of the Motion at the present time would be attended with inconvenience and injury to the public service.
§ MR. DISRAELISir, this a very important question, and I think we ought not to allow it to pass altogether unnoticed. One may easily adopt the impression that an independent Member gave notice of a Motion on a most important subject, which Her Majesty's Government consider to be of an inconvenient character; and no doubt a Minister of the Crown rising and appealing to the Member, would be supported, as under ordinary circumstances, and as the noble Lord may now even be supported, by the House. But I must remind the House that is not the case of the hon. Member for Aylesbury. Only a week ago the First Minister of the Crown, in this House, himself indicated his wish that this subject should be brought forward, and his readiness to meet the Motion of the hon. Member for Aylesbury; the noble Lord himself fixed the day on which it should he brought forward. What follows from what has taken place to-night? Why, that may follow which, unless removed by the representations of Her Majesty's Government, may have a very dangerous effect on public opinion, because if the noble Lord the leader of this House was anxious and ready only a week ago that this subject should be brought forward, and if we are told now the bringing it forward will be injurious to the public service, it follows that in the interval of one week circumstances have occurred which have changed the opinion of Her Majesty's Ministers. I am not for a moment saying those circumstances have occurred. I hope they have not occurred; but, unless they have occurred, I see no reason why the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton should appeal to the hon. Gentleman the Member 1425 for Aylesbury, and ask him to postpone his Motion indefinitely. The hon. Gentleman is in exactly the same position as he was a week ago, unless circumstances have occurred which have rendered our position much less advantageous than at that time. ["No, no!"] I hear a murmur of No! That is exactly the point we have to discuss, and it is merely to notice that important point that I have risen. It is not by murmuring "no" that an answer can be given to criticism of this kind. It is essential to the satisfaction of the public mind that we should be better informed on this subject. If during that interval of a week circumstances have occurred of such vast importance and gravity that Her Majesty's Ministers are authorised to take a precisely contrary course to that which they were ready to take a week ago, a declaration of that kind would render every Gentleman silent. But if that be not the case, if circumstances of great danger and gravity have not occurred, then I say the hon. Member for Aylesbury incurs grave responsibility if he omits to do his duty to his constituents and to the country, and to bring forward an important subject which the First Minister of the Crown, in this House, had previously invited him to do.
§ MR. BRIGHTI think with regard to the main question, no one has a right to find fault with the hon. Member for Aylesbury, if he consent to the proposition of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), because any Member of this House—the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) himself—is at liberty to give notice and to bring the question forward on the earliest day which can be secured, and an opportunity is not very difficult to find, if anybody is determined to obtain it. I am one of those, however, who think the hon. Member for Aylesbury will exercise a very wise discretion if he does not bring this question forward at this time, and I will state in a very few words the reason why I am of that opinion. In this country there is probably no diversity of opinion with regard to certain circumstances which are occurring abroad. We all know it is very easy to get up in the House or in the country, where people are rather of a pugnacious disposition, a feeling, which may seem justified, of a wish to protect the weak against the strong, and that feeling may be pushed to that extent, that all efforts by the Governmont, how-praiseworthy and patriotic, to preserve peace may possibly be frustrated. Now, if I thought the Government at this time 1426 were pushing the country to war—a war which would be unpopular in this House, and hateful to the people—then I think any one would be justified in insisting upon discussion, that this House might bring its power to check the Government; but that is not so on the occasion before us. I speak particularly of the Prime Minister. So far as his conduct is concerned in this matter, I have the utmost confidence in the course he is disposed to take. I take it for granted that the noble Earl will maintain peace, if it be possible to maintain peace, consistently with the character and position of this country. Well, having that confidence, I think it highly probable the discussion of a question like this, in a popular assembly, may have the effect of damaging the object which I have so much at heart; and it is because I am of that opinion—not that I shrink from the discussion of any question before this House, or in this House, if opportunity rendered it desirable—yet, it is because I hold that opinion that I say, though Ministers of course use the phrase when things are to be concealed, that the public service will be injured by discussion. I believe the chances of peace will be damaged if this question, with all the irritating circumstances connected with it, is brought before the House now; and having, as I have, great confidence in the wisdom of the Government, their moderation, the conciliatory course which they are disposed to take under any difficulties of this kind, and hoping that by that course they will be able to keep this country from the untold and inconceivable calamity of hostilities with Russia or any other country, I beg the hon. Member (Mr. Layard), not to bring forward his Motion now. I am quite sure that in course of time he will see the wisdom of the course recommended by the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), and which I should recommend. It may be, some will taunt him with not bringing it forward; but if, to-morrow or next day, persons in the press, or in this House, or anywhere else, taunt him with want of spirit and neglect of duty, he will have the satisfaction of knowing, and it will be acknowledged before long, that he withdrew his Motion because he was anxious to help the Government in the steps they are taking to preserve the peace of this country and the peace of Europe.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYI rise, Sir, merely for the purpose of expressing my dissent from the inference which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) draws from 1427 the course pursued by Her Majesty's Government on the present occasion. He Has inferred, as a necessary consequence of that course, that we must now be in a far more disadvantageous position than we were a week ago—that circumstances of gravity and danger must have arisen in the interval which induced Her Majesty's Government to make an appeal to the hon. Member for Aylesbury to postpone his Motion. Now I must confess, without pretending to any knowledge of the facts of the case, that I draw a totally different inference from that appeal. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman appeared to me to be calculated to produce great and unnecessary alarm. But the inference which I draw from what has taken place is, that the prospect of bringing about an amicable adjustment is better; and the Government apprehend that discussion now, leading to an irritating debate, might tend to mar the prospect of an amicable settlement, which we all desire to see as the result of this question.
MR. HUMEMr. Speaker, in all the experience I have had, it does not occur to my recollection that resistance has ever been made to such an appeal as that of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston); and being one who has great confidence in the moderation, firmness, and judgment of the First Minister of the Crown, I am disposed, with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), to think the hon. Member for Aylesbury will act wisely and prudently in not urging any discussion at present. It is quite true, publicity is, on almost all occasions, of advantage; but there are exceptions, and I think this is one. The object of this country is to keep at peace with the whole world—not that I would have the country ready to submit to insult, or to give up that which would derogate from its honour; but I think the hon. Member (Mr. Layard) will act wisely in giving an opportunity to Her Majesty's Government to point out, on an occasion of so much importance, when this discussion shall be brought forward. He must not mind what persons may say, and J hope that, with the view of promoting peace, or assisting the amicable arrangement of the present difficulties, he will accede to the wishes of Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD DUDLEY STUARTI think I can recall to the recollection of hon. Gentlemen a circumstance which may possibly make them think it is not altogether pre- 1428 sumptuous in me to address one or two-observations to the House en this subject* The circumstance is, that the Motion of which my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury has given notice, was given notice of by myself some months ago, and when my hon. Friend was not in this Country. He was then at Constantinople; but on his return to his place in Parliament, it was the wish of many of fist friends and of mine, and of those taking a great interest in this subject, that I should make it over to him, I most willingly acceded to their desire, and surrendered it into his hands, convinced that he possessed much greater capacity for doing justice to the subject than I did. Having done so, I may be supposed to feel peculiar interest in the course which he is about to adopt, and to have some title to express my opinion upon it. I certainly do lament the course which Her Majesty's Government think it their duty to take on this occasion, I cannot myself see the injury which is likely to arise from the subject receiving deliberate discussion in this House, I should have thought myself that such a, discussion would be likely to strengthen the hands of the Government, supposing they are going to take, as I am ready tot suppose, a right and honourable course. I hope they mean to take (Measures calculated to maintain peace (which I suppose we all desire), and which will not expose us to the reproach of falling away from any engagement, or of violating any assurance which this country may have given in support of a just cause to any other country. The House will, no doubt, see there is a great advantage in maintaining peace —that peace ought to be maintained by all means consistent with the honour and true interests of this country. But there is such a state of things as having a peace entailing half, if not all, the disadvantages of a war. There is such a state of things as having large armaments, as expensive as if there were war. There is such a state of things as having a foreign army occupying the territory of another State, and Subjecting the inhabitants of that State to all the evils, the expenses, the cruelties, and the sufferings of war, and all in the name of peace. I am desirous of seeing peace maintained, but maintained in such a way as not to sacrifice our interests, nor depart from our good faith. I hope that the dexterity and the spirit of the Government will compass both these ends. I should, however, hare thought 1429 that the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), who has always prided himself upon giving fuller information than any other Foreign Secretary, would have been anxious to grant further information; but since the Government take the responsibility of asking the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Layard) not to press his Motion—since they do not feel the necessity of the support of the representatives of the people—I think there is but one course left to the hon. Gentleman, and that he cannot, with any propriety, do otherwise than consent to the appeal that has been made to him. But though, under the circumstances, the delay may be assented to, the House and the country will at the proper time expect, and insist upon having, the fullest information on all these points. They will know whether there has been within the last week any change, as seems to be suspected on the opposite side, in the motives and measures of the Government. They will be acquainted with all the circumstances which made the Government at one time apparently desirous that this Motion should be brought on, and at another that it shall be put off.
§ MR. LAYARDAfter what has fallen from the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) and others, I have no difficulty in acting on this occasion. After the appeal that has been made to me, I can have no hesitation in withdrawing this Motion. But I trust, however, the noble Lord will permit me to bring it oh again whenever the public service will admit of my doing so.