HC Deb 22 March 1852 vol 119 cc1426-32

House in Committee of Supply.

(1.) 3,602,067l. Charge of the Land Forces.

MR. BERESFORD

said, the first Vote which he would submit was that of 3,602,067l., to defray the maintenance of Her Majesty's land forces, which was an increase of 80,997l. over the sum voted last year. The vote passed last Friday for the number of men (101,937) being an increase of 3,223 over the number voted last year, rendered an increase of expenditure necessary in the present Estimates. In the Estimates of last year the charge for the land forces was 3,521,070l., and in the present Estimates it amounted to 3,602,067l., being an increase of 80,997l. This increase might be briefly explained as follows:—Increased charge of rank and file amounting to 56,660l.; for annual allowances, 2,809l.: for extraordinary expenses of agency, 327l., and for clothing, 7,755l., making a total of 67,551l. But there was, on the other hand, a decrease on account of the number of officers of 5,339l., and of non-commissioned officers of 7,306l.; total, 12,645l.; which deducted from the increase, left a sum of 54,906l. increase. There was, besides, an increase for levy money of 20,000l., and for field allowances, mainly attributable to the Kafir war, of 11,000l., which raised the increase to 85,906l., but which was reduced to 80,906l. by a decrease of 5,000l. on some other smaller items.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, there were several items in the Vote on which he had intended to offer some observations, but, as it appeared to be the wish of the Committee to allow the present Government to take the Estimates as they had received them from the late Government, he should let them pass without any comment.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) 169,607l. for the Staff.

MR. ALCOCK

said, that though the noble Lord the Member for the city of London had said that he did not mean to throw any impediment in the way of granting the supplies, yet he (Mr. Alcock) did not see what prospect there was of bringing the great commercial question which so much interested the country to an issue, unless some more specific declaration were made on the part of the Government than that House had hitherto been favoured with. He was sorry to have to express his want of confidence in the Government, because many of the individuals composing it were his personal friends, and gentlemen for whom he had the greatest respect. If any hon. Member would like to limit the supplies to a period of three or six months, he (Mr. Alcock) would be perfectly willing to join with him; for he was not satisfied with the statement of Her Majesty's Government, and he saw no more prospect now than there was on Friday last that this question would be settled before next year. If the Committee granted the supplies for a whole year, the question of free-trade might remain in abeyance for that time. He had no confidence in the declaration that bad been made to that House by the Government, because they had now been crying out for six years past that nothing but a return to protection could satisfy the wants of the country; whereas now that they had the power and the opportunity to propose some measure upon the subject, they left the question totally in a state of suspense. Her Majesty's present Government had formerly exhibited a great desire for a 5s. duty upon corn; but such an expedient would be wholly useless, and the relief afforded by it would not be worth the acceptance of any farmer in this country be he large or small. Let them suppose the case of a farmer with 400 acres of land, which he cultivated in a superior manner. One-fourth of the land would be in wheat, of which there would be say four quarters to the acre. With a duty of 5s. these 400 quarters would be worth about 2s. 6d. a quarter more than under the present system—that is to say, about 50l. a year additional would go into the pocket of one of the largest farmers in the country, and he would have to deduct from that profit at least 25l. to make up for the increased price of labour. It was, therefore, impossible to suppose that any one could expect to get more than from 25l. to 30l. profit from a 5s. duty on a large farm of 400 acres. The proposition of a 5s. duty was in reality not made for the purpose of assisting the farmers, but with the view of getting in the sharp point of the wedge, in order that the duty might be afterwards increased to 15s. or 20s. What he complained of was, that the Protectionists were not sincere in their professions, neither could he consider the Free traders sincere if they did not take this opportunity of forcing the Government to say what it meant to do with respect to the question of free trade, or how soon it would bring the subject before the country for its decision. For his part he ought rather to rejoice that the Protectionist party, now that they were in office, were going against that which they had been speaking in favour of for the last six years, because they might depend upon it that if the Anti-Corn-Law-League should be resuscitated, it would not be revived for the sole purpose of preserving free trade in corn, but it would be put upon a more comprehensive footing, and would be made a Parliamentary Reform and Anti-War League. Under these circumstances he did not think that the supplies ought to be granted to Her Majesty's present Government for the whole year.

MR. FOX MAULE

said, that he had been unable until that moment to find an opportunity of asking a question of the right hon. Gentleman opposite the Secretary at War. A Committee which sat last year and the year before on the subject of Army expenditure, had recommended it as a matter well worthy of the attention of the late Government whether it might not resolve to have one medical establishment for the whole Army, and another for the Ordnance. The Committee had reported that as far as they could judge they thought that this would be an expedient measure. When he (Mr. F. Maule) was in the War Office, he had consulted the head of the Army Medical Department, and had learned from him that so far as he could see, there would be no difficulty in adopting the recommendation of the Committee. A joint Committee consisting of Army and Ordnance officers had been appointed under the directions of his right hon. Friend who succeeded him in the War Office (Mr. V. Smith), to consider the question. He (Mr. F. Maule) was not aware whether that Committee had yet made their Report; but he felt quite sure that the proposed measure, if it could be adopted, would be one that would tend to economy, as well as conduce to the venience of the Army generally. He begged to ask whether the right hon. Gentleman opposite had had his attention directed to the subject?

MR. BERESFORD

said, that be had made inquiries respecting this recommendation of the Committee on Army expenditure, and the answer which he had received was, that a Committee was at that moment sitting upon the subject. He had not yet received the Report of that Committee, but should give his best attention to the subject when the Committee should have made their Report.

MR. MACGREGOR

would suggest that a reduction might safely be made in the strength of the garrisons in the North American Colonies. He had no hesitation in saying that the present peace and loyalty of those Colonies were owing to the responsible constitutions which had been given to them by the noble Lord the Member for London when he was Secretary of State for the Colonies. As the Estimates had been all carefully prepared by the late Government, he (Mr. Macgregor) would suggest that they should be allowed to pass as they were without opposition.

Vote agreed to; as were the following:—

(3.) 95,957l. Public Departments.

(4.) 17,141l. Royal Military College.

(5.) 17,536l., Royal Military Asylum and Hibernian Military School.

(6.) 84,000l., Volunteer Corps.

(7.) 15,643l., Rewards for Military Service.

(8.) 61,000l., Army Pay, General Officers.

(9.) 50,000l., Full Pay, Retired Officers.

(10.) 365,000l., Half Pay and Military Allowances.

(11.) 36,916l., Foreign Half Pay.

(12.) 119,387l. Widows' Pensions.

(13.) 83,000l., Compassionate List

(14.) 28,815l., In-Pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.

MR. GROGAN

wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the discussions that took place last year upon this subject. He perceived that a considerable reduction had been made in the number of pensioners in Kilmainham Hospital. That, he believed, resulted in consequence of a letter written by the late Secretary at War (Mr. F. Maule). The subject was one of great interest and importance to the citizens of Dublin, and to the army serving in Ireland. The late Government were, he believed, most anxious that this institution should be abolished, and if the letter to which he had referred was not recalled, the hospital would soon be put an end to. His object now was to obtain a promise, if he could, from the present Government that that establishment would be kept up. In saying so much he believed that he was but speaking the sentiments of every Irish Member in that House, who concurred in deprecating the system of centralisation which characterised the policy of the late Government.

MR. BERESFORD

said, that this subject had engaged his attention before he had the honour of being connected with the Government. He acknowledged that his nationality had greatly influenced his vote on former occasions in opposing the efforts made by the late Government to abolish Kilmainham Hospital. But now that he was Secretary at War he did not think that he would be quite justified in going against the recommendation of that House in declining to adopt the Estimate as he found it. He only wished he had the power now of recalling the letter which had been written by the former Secretary at War upon this subject. He did not think he could give any further explanation upon the subject.

MR. FOX MAULE

was glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman intended to adopt the recommendation of the House upon this subject. The question had been discussed more than once, and it had been fully inquired into by a Committee that had sat more than two years. They came to the decided opinion that the two establishments were unnecessary for the service of the Army. He could easily believe that Irishmen might feel somewhat sore at the reduction of such an establishment; but at the same time it might be devoted to some other public purpose in Ireland, far more useful to the Irish people than it was at present. It was proposed to convert it to the purpose of an artillery barrack. He willingly confessed it was the object of the late Government, neither more nor less, than to do away with it altogether. The letter which he had written on the subject was for the purpose of preventing the vacancies as they occurred in the hospital being filled up. The late Government intended that there should be only one establishment for the retired soldiers of the Army. He was informed that, even if he had not written that letter, the number in the Hospital would necessarily have been reduced, from the circumstance of there being but few applications from pensioners to get into it.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

could assure the hon. Member for the city of Dublin that he quite sympathised with him in the view which he took of this subject. It was, however, considered desirable, under present circumstances, that no alteration should be made in the Estimates of their predecessors; but he did not wish the hon. Member to understand that the Government were opposed to a reconsideration of the question. The question wonld be reconsidered in a fair and candid spirit, whether the Government could, consistently with their views, take such a course as would have the effect of continuing Kilmainham Hospital for the purposes for which it was originally established.

MR. HUME

was sorry to hear such a statement from the right hon. Gentleman; for if any question met with general unanimity, it was that regarding the propriety of abolishing this Hospital. It was quite unnecessary for the right hon. Gentleman to make such an observation as had just fallen from him. He hoped that before the Government would reconsider the recommendation that they had come to on the subject, they would first inquire whether there was any evidence that could set aside the strong facts that had already been laid before them.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he was certain that the people of Dublin would be most happy at hearing the Chancellor of the Exchequer declare that the question would be reconsidered. Nothing could be more unpopular in Ireland than the attempt to remove Kilmainham Hospital, because it was unjust. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. F. Maule) that there were several pensioners most anxious to enter the Hospital. As an Irishman and a soldier he felt grateful to the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer for saying that the Government intended to reconsider this question.

SIR HENRY BARRON

also begged to express his satisfaction at the announcement of the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) said that the Committee had been unanimous in their opinion that Kilmainham Hospital should be abolished. He (Sir H. Barron) had always remarked that there was perfect unanimity amongst English and Scotch Members on every subject connected with Ireland. If it was proposed to do away with any Scotch establishment, they should have the hon. Member for Montrose, and other Scotch Members, urging most excellent reasons for its preservation.

MR. FORBES

must disclaim, on the part of the Scotch Members, the feeling attributed to them by the hon. Baronet the Member for Waterford.

MR. HUME

challenged the hon. Baronet the Member for Waterford to mention a single instance in which he (Mr. Hume) had objected to any proposal tending to the real benefit of Ireland.

COLONEL FREE STUN

begged to ask the hon. and gallant Member for Portar-lington (Colonel Dunne) whether he intended to bring forward his annual Motion about the Guards in the course of the present Session?

COLONEL DUNNE

could not give the hon. and gallant Member any promise upon the subject.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

thought that if half of the sum now proposed were divided among the pensioners, and they were allowed to live with their relations, they would be far more comfortable than they were at present.

Vote agreed to; as were also—

(15.) 1,226,803L., Out-Pensioners, Chelsea Hospital, &c.

(16.) 37,500l., Superannuation Allowances.