HC Deb 11 June 1852 vol 122 cc539-46

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clause 1 (declaring the office of Masters in Chancery abolished),

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

said, that as the clause now stood, the Masters in Chancery were to continue to have all the powers conferred upon them by any Act of Parliament or otherwise vested in them, which they might be required by the Lord Chancellor still to execute. He proposed that the office of Master should be declared abolished entirely, except for the mere purpose of winding up the business of their offices.

MR. HEADLAM

moved the omission of the clause.

MR. WALPOLE

said, the whole Bill depended upon the fact that the office of Masters in Chancery was to be abolished.

MR. BETHELL

regarded the Bill as effecting a great improvement in the English law.

MR. AGLIONBY

agreed with the hon. Member (Mr. Headlam) that the first clause was unnecessary and unintelligible, and that it might be omitted without prejudice to the operation of the Bill.

MR. HENLEY

said, the public would gain by it the advantage of cheap justice, speedily administered. These Masters, when appointed to their present office, were in the enjoyment of large professional incomes, and, if the country determined on removing them from office, it was but just to compensate them.

MR. E. ELLICE

said, the continual complaint hitherto, with respect to the Masters' Offices, had been, that they were so overcrowded with business that the Masters could not get through the business assigned to them. Now, if that complaint was well founded, surely the more Masters to perform the work the better for the public, as far as regarded the despatch of business in the Masters' Offices. He, therefore, suggested that the whole of the Masters should remain in office until the business already assigned to them had been disposed of. He would embrace that opportunity of tendering his thanks to the Gentlemen who had undertaken to be Members of the Chancery Commission. He was instrumental in adding to it two right hon. but not learned Gentlemen (Sir J. Graham and Mr. Henley), and he felt quite sure that the public out of doors would now see the benefits resulting from the adding of laymen to the Commission.

MR. S. CARTER

thought that the country would be entitled to the services of the youngest of the Masters in the intended new offices of chief clerks to the Chancery Judges. Men in the prime of life ought not to be handsomely paid for doing nothing.

Clause agreed to; as was also Clause 2.

Clause 3 (releasing four of the Masters in Ordinary from their duties),

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

moved an Amendment to release two instead of four Masters from their duties.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL,

on the part of the Government, would not oppose the Amendment, if it met with the general concurrence of the Committee.

MR. AGLIONBY

said, if these Masters were all to retire upon full salaries, the Bill would confer very little benefit upon the public.

MR. HENLEY

said, the pounds, shillings, and pence was only a subordinate view of the question. The object of the Bill was to give the public a cheaper and more ready access to justice than they had at present. They could not propose to remove persons who had been taken out of a profession and placed in a quasi-judicial position like the Masters without compensating them.

MR. AGLIONBY

admitted that that was the case.

MR. E. ELLICE

said, the great complaint hitherto had been the pressure of business in the Masters' Offices, and he did not see how that was to be remedied by allowing even two of them to retire before they had wound up the business in their respective offices.

MR. AGLIONBY

said, things had come to such a pass, that they must abolish either the Courts of Equity or the Masters, and they had determined to abolish the Masters. Every one knew how suits were bandied from the Court to the Master, and from the Master to the Court again, and to get rid of that system he was willing to pay a great deal.

MR. S. CARTER

said, seeing that the Masters were to be paid for their dues the salaries they now enjoyed, he thought they ought to do some duty, and as chief clerks were to be employed, he thought the junior Masters ought to fill these or some such offices.

MR. WALPOLE

said, they could not place any of those gentlemen in inferior offices to that which they had already held: and it must be remembered that in the present case one of them was retiring after a service of twenty-eight and the other of twenty-two years.

MR. OSWALD

said, it appeared that the first clause of the Bill abolished all the Masters in Chancery, and that the present clause reinstated them. He wished to see an end to the Masters' Office, and instanced a case in which he had been himself concerned to show the delay and expense which attended it.

MR. WALPOLE

said, the Masters were all abolished by the first clause, and by the third so many of them only were retained as were necessary to conclude the business at present in the Masters' Offices.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 4 to 6 inclusive.

Clause 7, the object of which is to give power to the Masters to force the matters before them to a decision,

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

moved a verbal amendment, and said he had been informed that day by one of the Masters that he had sent 300 letters to different parties to proceed with their suits, and out of 130 answers that he had received, 115 of them were to state that the causes were at an end. This proved that there was an appearance of arrears which did not actually exist.

Clause as amended agreed to; as were also Clauses 8 to 11 inclusive.

Clause 12 (which gives power to the Lord Chancellor to provide chambers in Lincoln's Inn for the Vice-Chancellors),

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

observed that whilst this clause gave power to the Lord Chancellor to provide chambers for the Vice-Chancellors, it was proposed by-Clause 48 to dispose of the Masters' Offices in Southampton Buildings. Now he was of opinion that the chambers in Southampton Buildings would he more convenient for chambers than any others which they were likely to obtain in Lincoln's Inn, which would probably he some distance from each other. He therefore proposed to alter Clause 12 so as to carry out this view.

MR. WALPOLE

said, that the present Vice-Chancellors' Courts in Lincoln's Inn were never intended to be more than tempo- rary, and he knew they were inconvenient. It was the duty of the Government to provide proper courts, and the sale of the house in Southampton Buildings would enable them to effect so desirable an object. It was of the greatest importance that the chambers should be attached to the courts of the respective Judges, and that on this account the house in Southampton Buildings would be inconvenient. He thought this matter was one which would be better left in the hands of the Government.

MR. AGLIONBY

did not think the right hon. Gentleman had answered the objection of the Master of the Rolls.

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

agreed with his right hon. Friend as to the importance of having the chambers attached to the Judges' courts, but the clause did not provide for this. It only provided that chambers should be taken somewhere in Lincoln's Inn.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL

suggested that the choice of the site of these chambers should be left to the discretion of the Government, who would of course be anxious to consult the convenience of the Judges; and he proposed to omit all the words relating to the locality of the chambers.

MR. E. ELLICE

did not see why the Lord Chancellor should have the duty imposed on him of providing courts or chambers, any more than the Chief Justice or the Chief Baron.

SIR JAMES GRAHAM

said, the matter was fully discussed by the Chancery Commission, and the arrangement proposed by the Government was considered the most convenient one.

The SOLICITOR GENERAL

hoped his right hon. Friend the Master of the Rolls would leave the matter in the hands of the Government.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 13 to 37, inclusive.

Clause 38.

MR. OSWALD

asked who were, after the measure was passed, to convey messages to this House from the House of Lords? Who were to make the three bows on approaching the Speaker, in future?

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

said, the existing Masters would do as long as they remained in office.

MR. OSWALD

And who afterwards?

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

The House of Lords will find their own messengers.

MR. OSWALD

Yes, the House of Lords will find the messengers; but we are to find the money. Were not the clerks who would be appointed under this Bill competent to make the three bows?

MR. WALPOLE

The House of Lords will find their own messengers.

MR. OSWALD

I have given a hint which I hope will not be forgotten, and that the three bows will not cost the country more than they do at present.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 39 to 42, inclusive, agreed to. Clauses 43 and 44 postponed.

The remaining Clauses were agreed to down to the supplemental clauses.

Clause 5 brought up, and read 1°, 2°.

MR. S. CARTER,

on Clause 5, which was entirely new, being brought up, proposed an Amendment to the effect that the retiring pension of Masters should not exceed two-thirds of their salary.

Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out the words "the full amount," in order to insert the words "an amount not exceeding two thirds."

MR. WALPOLE

considered that they had no right to give gentlemen who had taken office on the understanding that they would hold their offices for life, less than the sum which they had received for the offices for which they had resigned lucrative business at the bar.

MR. S. CARTER

did not agree with the reasons urged for giving the full salary as pension. It was notorious that the country did not ask these gentlemen to abandon their practice, but that many others were willing to undertake the duties of the office in question.

MR. ROUNDELL PALMER

thought it would be contrary to the principle that House had always acted upon towards vested interests—namely, to secure the whole amount of salaries which otherwise would be secured to them for life—if they adopted the Amendment. He thought, however, that if full salaries were paid, parties receiving salaries ought to perform services for them either in their own office or in some other office.

MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY

thought it would be unwise to part with those four Judges, and tol ose all control over them, as proposed by the clause. The effect of the clause was to give a boon to the gentlemen who were to retire—it was, in fact, to increase their retiring allowance. He thought those gentlemen ought to he at the command of the Lord Chancellor, to be employed in any way which might assist in working out those reforms which were in progress.

SIR WILLIAM PAGE WOOD

observed that none of the Masters wished to retire, and as they had been appointed during good behaviour, they had a life-interest in their offices. If, therefore, it was considered that the abolition of the office was for the public advantage, the holders ought to receive full compensation.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: —Ayes 90; Noes 10: Majority 80.

On Clause 43, which had been postponed,

MR. S. CARTER

proposed as an Amendment to reduce the salary of the officers appointed under this clause from 3,000l. to 1,000l. per annum.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 44, which had been postponed,

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

moved to omit after the words "it shall be lawful" all the words to the end of the clause, and to substitute the following:— For every person who on the first day of Hilary Term, 1852, held the office of chief clerk to any of the Masters in ordinary of the said Court of Chancery, and who is not hereby appointed a chief clerk to the Master of the Rolls, or to one of the Vice-Chancellors, under the authority of this Act, upon the Master to whom he shall be such chief clerk being released from the duties as such Master, under the authority of this Act, to continue to be entitled to receive during his life, by way of retiring pension, the full amount of his salary as such chief clerk, such salary to be paid and payable out of such funds and in such manner as hereinafter in that behalf directed.

MR. WALPOLE

opposed the Amendment. The office of the clerk was dependent on the life of the Master, and every clerk accepted his appointment on the express understanding that it was to lapse with the life of the Master. This being so, it was unreasonable to require that compensation should be given for this as for a permanent office.

MR. S. CARTER

remarked that, according to this proposal, the clerk would receive for his own life, by way of compensation, what at best, and in his safest tenure of it, he was only entitled to hold till the death of the Master.

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

said, as regarded what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole), that each Master's successor brought in his own clerks, that there was not a single instance of a chief clerk being turned out by a Master.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he would adopt the principle of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

was satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's statement.

Clause agreed to.

The MASTER or THE ROLLS

proposed to insert the following clause after Clause 43: A. (Pensions to Chief Clerks and Junior Clerks in cases of permanent infirmity.) It shall be lawful for the Lord Chancellor, with the consent of the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury, by any order made on a petition presented to him for that purpose, to order (if he shall think fit) to be paid to any person executing the office of chief clerk or junior clerk to the Master of the Rolls, or any of the Vice-Chancellors, who shall he afflicted with some permanent infirmity, disabling him from the due execution of his office, and shall be desirous of resigning the same, an annuity not exceeding two-third parts of the yearly salary which such person shall be entitled to at the time of presenting such petition, and be paid and payable at the same times, and out of the same funds, as compensations under this Act are directed to be paid.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining Clauses were then agreed to.

MR. WALPOLE

said, that before the Bill was reported, he was anxious to express on the part of the Government, and particularly on the part of the Lord Chancellor, the profound appreciation which both entertained of the great learning, ability, and assiduity displayed by the learned Commissioners to whom the important duty was assigned of drawing up the Report on which were founded the two measures the details of which had occupied the House that evening—measures of which he would not hesitate to say that none had ever been introduced so well calculated to effect an improvement in the administration of the law in this country. He would only add, that it afforded him a personal pleasure to bear testimony to the high appreciation by the Government of the services rendered by the Lord Chancellor in carrying out the suggestions of the Report.

SIR JAMES GRAHAM

entirely concurred in the propriety of the observations which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman. He was sorry that doubt should have been thrown from any quarter on the intentions of the Lord Chancellor with respect to these important measures, for, from every communication he had had with the Lord Chancellor, he entertained the conviction that the noble and learned Lord, from the moment he accepted the seals of his high office, was resolved to give effect, as far as it lay in his power, to the recommendations of the Commissioners. His exertions in this respect had reflected the greatest honour on the noble and learned Lord, and were every way worthy of his distinguished character.

House resumed. Bill reported.

The House adjourned at half-after One o'clock till Monday next.