HC Deb 24 May 1850 vol 111 cc319-23

Motion made, and Question proposed— That a sum not exceeding 83,160l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray, to the 31st day of March, 1851, the Expense of Maintenance and Repair of Royal Palaces and Public Buildings, for providing the necessary supply of Water for the same, for the Rents of Houses taken for occasional and temporary accommodation of the Public Service, for the Purchase and Repair of Furniture required in the various Public Departments, and for Services connected with the Lighting, Watching, and general protection of the Public Offices.

COLONEL SALWEY moved that the sum be reduced by 593l., the amount of the estimate for rebuilding the houses of the military knights of Windsor. Perhaps it was not generally known that there were charitable trusts set apart for this purpose. The Public Petitions Committee had printed a petition from Windsor, which stated that in 1843, 3,200l. of the public taxes was appropriated to the repairs and rebuilding of the knights' houses. Now these were expenses that under certain deeds executed in the time of Henry VIII. ought to have been borne out of the trust estates; but the deans and canons of Windsor had appropriated these estates to their own use. In 1830 the sum of 7,000l. was exacted from the country; in 1844, 3,100l. was obtained for rebuilding the military knights' houses of the lower foundation, and repairing those of the upper foundation. He found also the sums of 2001. and 600l. appearing in the Miscellaneous Estimates for 1848; then there was another sum of 1,260l., and now they had an additional sum of 593l. Now, this was a great public robbery. The dean and chapter divided 22,500l. a year amongst themselves. They held a property which in Henry VIII.'s time was worth 600l. a year. It was now worth 12,000l., and that with former grants made up 22,500l. They allowed to these unfortunate knights labourers' wages—a shilling a day; and the dean and canons had now the effrontery to come to this House to ask the nation to rebuild these houses. This was a grievous wrong. He thought the time had come when the country should deal with such questions. He now moved that the item be reduced by the sum of 593l.

Afterwards Motion made, and Question proposed— That a sum not exceeding 82,567l., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray, to the 31st day of March, 1851, the Expense of Maintenance and Repair of Royal Palaces and Public Buildings, for providing the necessary supply of Water for the same, for the Rents of Houses taken for occasional and temporary accommodation of the Public Service, for the Purchase and Repair of Furniture required in the various Public Departments, and for Services connected with the Lighting, Watching, and general protection of the Public Offices.

SIR G. GREY

said, the houses in which these knights resided were in fact part of the building belonging to Windsor Castle. The hon. and gallant Gentleman founded his objection to this vote on the claim of the military knights to share in the increased value of the estates. That was a wide question, which could not be entered upon now. It was a strictly legal question; and if these knights had a legal claim it was not to the House of Commons they should go, but to a court of law. The question had been submitted to his predecessor, the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, and the opinion of two of the law officers of the Crown—the present Chief Baron and the late Sir W. Follett—had been taken upon it, and the right hon. Gentleman considered it his duty not to interfere.

COLONEL SALWEY

said, it was perfectly well known that these poor men were not in a situation to go to law with such a body as the dean and canons of Windsor. But he would prove his point. Henry VIII. by his will granted lands and tenements of the value of 600. a year, on certain conditions. On the death of that monarch, various steps were taken by the Privy Council, and on the 4th of August, 1567, a deed was executed to declare the trusts. Now, he begged the House to remark that in the reign of Queen Mary the funds were devoted to the purpose for which they were intended, for out of the revenue thirteen houses were built, which the knights resided in at the present day.

COLONEL THOMPSON

hoped the Mover: would go to a division. His conviction was, that the matter ought to be looked into; and he bespoke the attention of both military and naval men to the subject. It was a contest between poor knights and ecclesiastics; and the great fish were swallowing the little.

LORD SEYMOUR

hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would consider what would be the effect of his Motion, if carried. Parliament had no power to compel the Dean and Chapter of Windsor to repair the houses; and if Parliament refused the vote, the consequence would he that the houses would not he repaired at all.

SIR DE L. EVANS

believed the institution of the Knights of Windsor was originally a good one; but, like many other ancient institutions, its design had been much neglected, and appointments made too much a matter of patronage. The present Government were attending to it in a much better spirit than had previously been manifested, and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had now under consideration the military claims of the officers recommended to the institution. None were appointed now, unless officers in distressed circumstances, who had served their country gallantly. The object of the hon. and gallant Member was a laudable one; but, as the noble Lord had observed, if the vote were withheld, the houses could not be repaired. He (Sir Do L. Evans) hoped the hon. and gallant Member would withdraw the Motion, and introduce it on the Ecclesiastical Bill. There was reason to believe that the ecclesiastical body at Windsor had extensive revenues themselves, and, not content with them, they were appropriating a large portion of the funds which belonged to those distressed knights.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. COBDEN

said, he saw a charge of 850l. for repairs, and furniture, and rates, of our Ambassador's house at Paris. They had been led to suppose, from the inquiry upstairs, that the furniture was not at the expense of the public. They paid the Ambassador 10,000l. a year, and 4,000l. a year for expenses connected with the office; they found him a building which was, in fact, a palace, and he did not see why there should be this charge in addition.

LORD SEYMOUR

said, that the furniture alluded to was for the official rooms, and that the 850l. also included chargea for lighting, water rates, contingencies, &c.

COLONEL SIBTHORP

said, he was informed that other expenses had been incurred in the improvements of Buckingham Palace which were paid for by the department of Woods and Forests, besides those which were sanctioned by the House. He wished to know whether that was the case?

MR. HAYTER

said, he believed the gallant Colonel was entirely misinformed. He did not apprehend that there was any sum of money whatever expended on Buckingham Palace, except what was voted by that House. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests undoubtedly took care of the royal parks, but they had nothing at all to do with Buckingham Palace.

COLONEL SIBTHORP

Oh, oh! but if a garden is attached to a house, it is part of the house. Everything that was connected with Buckingham Palace ought to be considered as belonging to it.

Vote agreed to.

22,000l. additions to the Ordnance Office, Pall-mall.

Vote agreed to.