HC Deb 29 July 1850 vol 113 cc454-9

House in Committee.

Motion made, and Question put— That it is expedient to enable Her Majesty, to settle Marlborough House on His Royal Highness Albert Edward Prince of Wales, during the joint lives of Her Majesty and His Royal Highness, and to provide suitable coach houses and stables for the same, out of the Land Revenues of the Crown.

MR. TRELAWNY

wished to know, before assenting to the resolution, why the noble Lord had refused to grant certain returns which had been moved for with respect to the Duchy of Cornwall?

LORD J. RUSSELL

replied, that there were certain returns which were by Act of Parliament directed to he laid before the House with respect to the Duchy of Cornwall, and these returns were always punctually given. With respect to the returns to which the hon. Gentleman referred, he had to say that the House, having in the early part of the Session negatived the hon. Gentleman's Motion that Parliament should assume a control over the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall, he did not think it necessary to grant the returns which had been asked for.

MR. HUME

said, it appeared to him that the resolution they were now asked to agree to was rather premature, considering that the Prince of Wales was only nine years of age. It would be recollected that a misunderstanding took place before with reference to Marlborough house, when it was voted to the late Queen Dowager. It was generally understood that Her Majesty was to keep it in order herself, but it turned out that the House had resolved that it should be kept in repair at the expense of the nation, and a hill for 44,000l. was accordingly sent in for repairing it, and we had had to keep it in repair ever since. He did not see the use of appropriating Marlborough-house to the Prince of Wales so many years before it could be wanted by him.

LORD J. RUSSELL

said, he had mentioned the proposal to several hon. Members before bringing it forward, and he had never heard any objection to it till now. His hon. Friend did not seem to remember what he had formerly stated to the House. What he had stated was, that Marlborough-house being Crown property the Queen had been graciously pleased to direct that the pictures of the Vernon Gallery, which were then in the National Gallery, but in a place where it was complained they were not well seen, should be removed to Marlborough-house, in order that the public might have an opportunity of seeing them. He thought that that should not be forgotten in connexion with this question. It certainly did appear to Her Majesty's Government that now would be a proper time to advise Her Majesty to ask Parliament to make a settlement with respect to the Prince of Wales's residence in Marlborough-house. They did not think it desirable that Marlborough-house should be occupied with pictures, or with any other thing, until it could be said that it had been so long occupied in that way that it would be wrong, without having ever mentioned the matter before, to give it to the Prince of Wales. The Government thought it better, instead of leaving room for an objection of that kind, to advise Her Majesty to send a message to Parliament on the subject now. He repeated that he had not heard any objection to it before, and he could hardly have proposed it later in the Session than the present time.

MR. HUME

would remind the noble Lord that he had objected to the removal of the Vernon pictures to Marlborough-house. What he wanted was that the Government should remove the Royal Academy in order to make room for that addition to the national collection. They would then have only one establishment instead of two. In order to take the sense of the Committee on the matter, he would move that the Chairman report progress.

MR. SPOONER

thought that he had heard the word "stables" in the resolution. He wished to know why stables were to be provided?

LORD SEYMOUR

said, he could explain that point. A good many years ago, when the Act was passed for the erection of Carlton-terrace, it was intended that the terrace should be carried somewhat further than it actually was carried. There were stables in connexion with Carlton-house, and, as the House was aware, these were given up to the late Queen Dowager, and, the Riding-house was devoted to the Records. There was now an opportunity of getting the Records removed, and he thought that this would be a good opportunity of getting rid of the stables also. He had asked what was the value of the property to the land revenues of the Crown; and he had been told that it was worth from 16,000l. to 20,000l. It had appeared to him, therefore, desirable that they should remove those stables, and replace the stables formerly belonging to Marlborough-house, but which were pulled down. He believed that the land revenues would be benefited about 800l. a year by the extension of Carlton-terrace. He had thought this the best opportunity they could have of providing stables for Marlborough-house; for to whatever purpose it might be applied, the stables would be useful. He had thought the arrangement rather a good one on both accounts, and therefore he had proposed that it should be carried out.

MR. TRELAWNY

said, perhaps it would be better if he moved for the returns he wished as an amendment. [An Hon. MEMBER: You can't.] The House ought to be exceedingly jealous with regard to the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall. It was well known that in two instances in the last century Parliament had been called on to pay the debts of the Prince of Wales, and they had once taken the property of the Duchy of Cornwall as a security for debts contracted by the Prince of Wales.

MR. HUME

said, that they ought not to add another building to the establishments of Royalty, while it was evident that they could not all be occupied. He wished to know why the Government were sustaining this grant; they should leave the question to a Parliament that was to come after them. He asked the noble Lord not to press the matter on the House now for a decision, as a more fitting time would yet come for its consideration.

MR. BRIGHT

said, that he thought that the reason given by the noble Lord was not sufficient to justify the course which he had taken. The noble Lord stated that it was his wish to have an arrangement now made in order that the public some seven or eight years hence, when it may be proper to give a residence to the Prince of Wales, may not be annoyed when the removal of the pictures would be required for that purpose. If it should be a proper thing that Marlborough- house should be given to the Prince of Wales at such a time, he did not think there would be any difficulty in doing it—because, as the matter had been thus fully discussed, it would be well known that the pictures were only there for a temporary purpose, until a more fitting place should be found for them. If that were the fact, he did not think that they should determine the mutter that night; and if the reason given by the noble Lord were the only one he had for calling upon them to settle the question that night, he felt that it was not sufficient to induce the House to agree with him. If he had any better reason he ought to state it.

COLONEL SIBTHORP

proposed to take the sense of the House on the matter. He thought that this attempt at increased expenditure was in perfect accordance with the extravagant system pursued by Her Majesty's Government.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that hon. Gentlemen seemed to be under the apprehension that there was some great expense to be incurred. The House might remember that some years ago the house was settled on Prince Leopold, and then on the Queen Dowager, with stables. She held the house with the stables in Carlton-ride. It was now the intention to complete Carlton-terrace, only one-half of which was fully completed; and for the purpose of finishing the incomplete half which ran into Carlton-ride, it was necessary to remove those stables, and to replace them on a smaller scale where they originally stood. It was a most advantageous arrangement for the public, as the terrace would be continued, and their property would be made more use of. It was no unreasonable request to ask that the stables should be taken away for the purpose of putting them where they were before. No establishment was to be kept up in Marlborough-house, and no expense would be gone to more than that now incurred by keeping up the National Gallery. There would be no establishment kept up beyond that which would be necessary in any case whatever; for they must have a porter at the gate, and somebody in the house, who would prevent it from suffering any of that mischief to which every unoccupied house was liable. The only question now was, whether they were prepared to take away the stables which were now adjoining the houses in Carlton-ride, for the advantage of the public, and in exchange for them to erect stables on a smaller scale in the original place.

MR. HUME

said, that the ground for making the demand was now changed. At first the damand was made for the endowment of Marlborough-house, but now it was for the extension of Carlton-terrace. He did not see any necessity for connecting the name of the Prince of Wales with Carlton-terrace. He hoped that the Government would postpone the consideration of the question till next year.

MR. HENLEY

said, that he did not see any reason why this House should hamper itself with what may happen in nine years hence. How could anybody say that there may not be changes of opinion as to what may be desirable to be done with either Buckingham Palace or Marlborough-house during that period. On similar matters changes of opinion had taken place within the last twenty-five years. Suppose then that they now voted that this house should be given as a place of residence to the Prince of Wales, and that a change of opinion took place, they would be compelled to buy the Prince of Wales out of that which they had originally given him, and then they would have to assign to him another house. With regard to the stables, they were the property of the Crown, and did not require any Act of Parliament to give them over to the Crown. He thought it unreasonable to ask the House now to decide upon giving Marlborough-house as a residence to the Prince of Wales in nine years. As to the argument of the noble Lord, he did not think it worthy of the consideration of the House, and he would give his vote in favour of postponing the consideration of the question.

MR. TRELAWNY

believed that if the returns he asked for were granted, it would appear that so large a revenue might be produced from the duchy of Cornwall that it would be unnecessary to ask the House to vote any establishment for the Prince of Wales.

MR. CAREW

said, that as long as so much mystery was observed about the income of the duchy of Cornwall, it was the duty of hon. Members who represented the west, and of financial reformers generally, to resist any grants to the Duke of Cornwall.

MR. DUNCAN

warned the noble Lord at the head of the Administration that he was doing a vast deal of injury to his Government by refusing to postpone this vote until next year.

LORD J. RUSSELL

was not proposing any grant to the Prince of Wales, nor was anything to be taken from the duchy of Cornwall. The proposition was, that when the Prince was 18 years of age he should have possession of Marlborough-house. Four months ago he stated that the Government would make this proposition. Whether the House settled this question to-night or next year was the same thing, hut he did not see any advantages in postponing the vote.

MR. HUME

thought that before the House voted residences and establishments to the Prince of Wales, they and the public had a right to know what amount of savings had arisen from the income of the duchy of Cornwall, where it was, how it was applied, and whether this property had been properly taken care of. The question of voting Marlborough-house would then be fit for consideration, but until that period it was wholly unnecessary for the present to hamper a future Parliament.

MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEY

If the noble Lord forced the House to divide, he would place hon. Members in a most unpleasant position. It certainly did appear to be wholly premature for the House to be discussing the question of a residence for a youth of nine years of age. The Prince might dislike the house as a residence when he became 18. The present vote, following as it did a recent vote of that House with regard to another member of the Royal Family, which was regarded as a piece of great extravagance out of doors, might lead the public to infer that the House had nothing to do with their surplus revenue but to find palaces for the Royal Family. He trusted that the noble Lord would consent to postpone the resolution.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 68; Noes 46: Majority 22.

List of the AYES.
Abdy, Sir T. N. Cubitt, W.
Adair, R. A. S. D'Eyncourt, rt. hn. C. T.
Baines, rt. hon. M. T. Dundas, Adm.
Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T. Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.
Barnard, E. G. Ebrington, Visct.
Barrington, Visct, Elliot, hon. J. E.
Bellew, R. M. Ferguson, Sir R. A.
Berkeley, Adm. Forster, M.
Blakemore, R. Freestun, Col.
Bowles, Adm. Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Bramston, T. W. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Brotherton, J. Grey, R. W.
Chatterton, Col. Hamilton, G. A.
Christy, S. Hatchell, J.
Clay, J. Hawes, B.
Cowper, hon. W. F. Hervey, Lord A.
Craig, Sir W. G. Hobhouse, T. B.
Howard, Lord E. Sheridan, R. B.
Labouchere, rt. hon. H. Smythe, hon. G.
Lewis, G. C. Somers, J. P.
M'Cullagh, W. T. Stanley, hon. W. O.
M'Gregor, J. Tancred, H. W.
Maule, rt. hon. F. Tennent, R. J.
Moffatt, G. Thompson, Col.
Owen, Sir J. Thornely, T.
Palmerston, Visct. Trevor, hon. G. R.
Parker, J. Tufnell, rt. hon. H.
Pelham, hon. D. A. Turner, G. J.
Plowden, W. H. C. Walpole, S. H.
Plumptre, J. P. Wilson, J.
Pugh, D. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Rich, H. Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.
Romilly, Sir J.
Russell, Lord J. TELLERS.
Seymour, Lord Hayter, W. G.
Sheil, rt. hon. R. L Hill, Lord M.
List of the NOES.
Anderson, A. Lacy, H. C.
Anstey, T. C. Langston, J. H.
Arkwright, G. Newdegate, C. N.
Baldock, E. H. O'Brien, Sir L.
Bright, J. O'Connor, F.
Carew, W. H. P. Osborne, R.
Caulfeild, J. M. Perfect, R.
Clive, H. B. Richards, R.
Cobden, R. Salwey, Col.
Dick, Q. Sibthorp, Col.
Dickson, S. Sidney, Ald.
Duncan, G. Spooner, R.
Duncuft, J. Stanford, J. F.
Evans, Sir De L. Stuart, Lord D.
Fox, W. J. Thompson, G.
Greene, J. Wakley, T.
Grenfell, C. P. Walmsley, Sir J.
Harris, R. Wawn, J. T.
Henley, J. W. Williams, J.
Henry, A. Willoughby, Sir H.
Heywood, J. Wood, W. P.
Heyworth, L.
Hotham, Lord TELLERS.
Kershaw, J. Trelawny, J. S.
King, hon. P. J. L. Hume, J.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.