HC Deb 10 December 1847 vol 95 cc928-36
MR. MONSELL

Although, Sir, I am aware that it is not proper to allude to what occurred in a former debate, yet I hope I may be permitted to refer to a charge which was made in the course of yesterday evening's discussion against the Roman Catholic Bishop of Limerick, Dr. Ryan, by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bridport. I will, with the permission of the House, read the charge, which it will be seen brings that right rev. Prelate under the description of an accessary before the fact, and an instigator to the commission of a crime of no less heinous a character than that of murder. Yes, the crime of which the hon. Member accused that right rev. Prelate was the crime of murder. I am going to speak not at all at random of that right rev. Prelate, but I am going to state what I know of him of my own personal knowledge, and what I believe can be testified of him by all classes and creeds in the country to which he belongs. He has distinguished himself by the most active and persevering endeavours to support the laws. He has subjected himself to much obloquy on account of the peaceful and tranquil course which he always thought it his duty to pursue. The charge which has been brought against him is founded on some words which he used in a charge which he delivered at a confirmation held in his own diocese. Now, those words referred to certain misdeeds which he ascribed to persons belonging to the upper classes. I have not got the charge here, and am therefore not able to refer to the particular terms of it; but fortunately Lord Farnham in another place quoted some words from the address, which warranted his Lordship to speak in terms of the highest possible approbation of the right rev. Prelate, and of the manifest spirit in which those words were used. The passage quoted by Lord Farnham was as follows:— If the people of this country had not fallen back to a state of wickedness and depravity, and forgotten, in their vices, their Christian obligations, how is it possible that, in a land like Ireland, blessed with fertility, glorious in the produce of nature, and ample in its natural resources, the poorer classes should be steeped in such wretchedness and misery? The land is in a state of wild-ness, while the occupiers and labourers indulge in wickedness and depravity. It was most unjust to take a separate passage in a charge addressed by a bishop to his clergy, disconnecting it from the context, and then founding an accusation upon it against the author of that charge. But such, it would appear, was the nature of the allegation made by the hon. Member last night against the right rev. Prelate; for by the quotation of the hon. Gentleman the impression was made that the right rev. Prelate had spoken of the misdeeds of one class of society without referring to the misdeeds of the other classes of society. It is notorious that no Christian minister ever spoke more against the crimes now prevailing in Ireland than Dr. Ryan. I must take the liberty of appealing to my noble Friend the Member for Falkirk (the Earl of Lincoln), and to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, who was lately Secretary for Ireland, to bear me out in the statement which I have made in reference to that right rev. Prelate. I also refer to the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), who lives near the right rev. Prelate, and knows his life and practice. I appeal to the noble Lord and the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen, and trust that their testimony will afford some reparation for the wound which has been inflicted on the right rev. Prelate by the accusation which has been preferred against him.

The EARL of LINCOLN

I would not for a single moment trouble the House, or add a word to what has been said by the hon. Member for the county of Limerick (Mr. Monsell), whoso testimony, as living in the immediate neighbourhood of Dr. Ryan, must be far more powerful and influential on the House than anything I can advance, if the hon. Gentleman had not made a direct appeal to me. I have no hesitation in responding to that appeal. I have not the honour of Dr. Ryan's personal acquaintance; I have never seen him in my life; but, during my short acquaintance with Ireland, it did so happen that his character was brought under my notice; and that, in reference to the counties of Limerick and Clare, there were many occasions on which I heard him most highly spoken of. Therefore, I can state that my belief is, that there is no character that stands higher than does the character of Dr. Ryan. I never heard but one opinion of him; and my belief is, that all persons, of whatever political party or religious creed, consider him to bear the most exemplary character in every respect. So far from being in any way subject to the charge of being an accessary before the fact to any crime whatever, I believe Dr. Ryan has most studiously devoted himself to the exercise of the duties of his sacred calling, and has always kept himself aloof from all species of political agitation, never mixing himself up with any political contests, but invariably maintaining the character of a firm and undeviating friend of peace and order.

MR. LABOUCHERE

I was not in the House when the hon. Member for Bridport made use of those expressions which referred to Dr. Ryan. Had I been pre-sent, so well am I acquainted with the character of that distinguished Prelate, I should have risen at once, and have stated my utter disbelief that Dr. Ryan had ever been guilty of any act that was unworthy a Christian bishop. I believe that no Church can boast of any member who affords a brighter example of a true pastor of a Christian Church than Dr. Ryan. I have no personal acquaintance with the right rev. Prelate, but I had ample means when in Ireland of knowing his character. He always studiously abstained from mixing himself up with political agitations, and courageously supported law and order in Ireland, and always deported himself in a manner worthy of the sacred station he holds. I have heard a great deal said about the conduct of the Catholic clergy of Ireland in the course of these debates, and expressions have been quoted as having fallen from the lips of some Catholic clergymen. Now, I condemn those expressions as strongly as any man. I hold such language to be most dangerous and criminal, coming from the lips of any man, but dangerous and criminal in the highest degree when used by men holding a sacred office. Such misconduct on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy has been strongly and justly reprobated by the newspapers. I do not regret it; but what I do regret is, that the public should be induced, by reason of such language and conduct, to lose sight of the meritorious course pursued by hundreds and hundreds of the Roman Catholic clergy, who, in the very worst times, were exposing themselves to obloquy among their own people by inculcating the maxims of obedience to the law, and by restraining the passions of their countrymen. I am satisfied that, if the whole truth were known as to the conduct of those men, it would prove that we owed a great debt of gratitude to the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. I hope the House and the country will never run away with the idea that, as a class, the Catholic clergy of Ireland are chargeable with the obliquities which have been alleged of a few, and that they will confine their censure to those only who have used the language to which so much attention has been directed in the course of these debates.

MR. STAFFORD

I am extremely obliged to my hon. Friend for having appealed to me on this occasion, because it gives me great gratification and real pleasure to bear my public testimony to the worth and excellence of so good a man as Dr. Ryan. I have an advantage over the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman, inasmuch as I claim a personal acquaintance with the right rev. Prelate. I have witnessed the conduct of Dr. Ryan in seasons of excitement and of extraordinary difficulties, when disease and want were prevalent in his diocese; and I can truly say, that foremost amongst those whom I should enumerate as the best specimens of the real Christian character, would be the right rev. Prelate. It has been often said, that whenever anybody is attacked in this House, there are always Members ready to rise and declare that the party attacked was the very best of mankind. Be that as it may, I can only say that on this occasion I have been occupied all day in searching the charge of the right rev. Prelate for an extract which would justify the accusation made against him. I confess that the only passages I have met with are those which, in my opinion, are just, and right, and proper, as containing strictures with regard to the faults of all classes in Ireland. If the hon. Member for Bridport can point out any other passages, he will no doubt state them to the House.

MR. COCHRANE

It is painful to me to accuse, or to appear to be wantonly casting any unjust charge against any gentleman, more especially a minister of the Church. I can only say to the hon. Member who commenced this discussion to- night, and to those hon. Members who have given their testimony in favour of Dr, Ryan, that I cannot doubt for a moment, after the testimony they have so borne, that Dr. Ryan was unguardedly led into the use of those expressions which I quoted last evening; and, as some hon. Members who are now here were not present on the former occasion, I will again read the quotation to the House. I did not accuse Dr. Ryan of instigating to crime, but of making use of language calculated to excite the people to the commission of crime. Dr. Ryan said— The higher classes were forgetful of their Christian obligations; they treated the poor like cattle; they were cold and callous to the voice of humanity—dead to all feelings of compassion—untouched by the cries of famine, the wailings of hunger, the lamentations of women and children, and the terrible condition of the poor man; they exercised over their victims a system of heartless cruelty, calculated to bring down vengeance from heaven upon them. For anything I know, Dr. Ryan may be a most excellent man; but, as a Member of this House, I still contend that that is not language for a minister of peace to use.

SIR B. HALL

What has been read by the hon. Member did certainly form a part of the charge of Dr. Ryan. It was my intention to have addressed the House last night, and to have answered the charge brought against Dr. Ryan by the hon. Member for Bridport. I felt it was my duty to do so, because on the first night of the Session I ventured to express an earnest hope that the hierarchy of the Irish Church would take into consideration the conduct of certain of their priesthood, and exert themselves for the purpose of inculcating into their minds—(I spoke not of the whole body, but only of a portion of them)—and not only into the minds of the priesthood, but also into the minds of the lower classes in Ireland, what was their duty, not only towards their country, but towards each other. It was my intention last night to read a portion of the charge of Dr. Ryan. Had I done so, I should not only have read that part which has just been quoted by the hon. Member for Bridport, but also a subsequent portion of it, which would show that it was very different indeed from the speech which I had occasion to quote on the first night of the Session. No half-hour was allowed by Dr. Ryan to elapse between the instigation to crime and the exhortation to peace; but the very words which followed the passage quoted by the hon. Member for Bridport, were words of counsel and instruction to the people. The words are— But, while thus viewing the state of the upper classes in society, let us not forget the middle or the low; let us descend a step, and view the opposite side of the picture. There are many complaints urged by the tenant against the landlord. The tenant considers his position deplorable, and attributes his misfortunes to the landlord. I ask, are the tenants themselves what they ought to be? Do they act conjointly with the landlord, and, while consulting their own interests and happiness, take a friendly part in his? Quite the reverse. Are not many of the tenants knavish, indolent, and apathetic, and care not about the rights of property, while they are vain enough to think that the land should be for their own use alone. Both parties are culpable. The Bishop then went on to say— If the people of this country had not fallen back to a state of wickedness and depravity, and forgotten in their vices their Christian obligations, how is it possible that in a land like Ireland, blessed with fertility, glorious in the produce of nature and ample in its natural resources, the poorer classes should be steeped in such wretchedness and misery? And again— I say, if the land were cultivated by Christian and industrious tenants, and possessed by benevolent and generous landlords, that it would afford four times the produce that it has now produced. The land is in a state of wildness, while the occupiers and labourers indulge in wickedness and depravity. Oh, 'tis true they will bemoan their condition, and say 'We have no one to pity or sympathise with us.' Such is not the case. Thousands sympathise with them—the bishops sympathise with them—the clergy sympathise, and the Legislature of this country has recently taken their condition into serious consideration. They have enacted a poor-law in the last Session of Parliament—one of the most important laws that have been framed for Ireland during the last 100 years—a law that will provide subsistence for the poor man on the very soil where he was born—a law that I often wished to see enacted, and strove to have enacted during the last 22 years which I presided as bishop over this diocese. But while you plunder and murder in the country—while you continue to disregard the laws of God find man—your friends will blush for your crimes, and be slow to address the Legislature.

VISCOUNT MORPETH

I will not run the risk of prolonging this discussion by entering into the consideration of the merits of the various sentences which have been read from the address of Dr. Ryan; indeed, I am not in a position to estimate the many unhappy circumstances prevailing around the right rev. Gentleman, which induced him to introduce into his charge—not into a speech, let it be remembered—a rebuke directed alike to all classes of the community. But, as my own experience of Dr. Ryan's character covers a still greater space of time than that of either my noble or right hon. successors in the office of Chief Secretary for Ireland, I think it due to the subject of this conversation to state that, although I never had the honour of forming a personal acquaintance with him, I have always heard express testimony borne to his most conciliatory and benevolent character, and to the exemplary manner in which he devotes himself, as a Christian bishop, to the special functions of his holy calling. And, if my memory does not deceive me, referring to a period so long back as when I was in Ireland, the Bishop of Limerick, in corresponding with me, during a season of distress, bore testimony to the indefatigable exertion of his Christian brother in cooperating with him for the common good of the flock which had claims upon their joint exertions.

SIR J. WALSH

was willing to believe that Dr. Ryan must have used the language which had been quoted from his address in a moment of excitement; but he could not help thinking it an unfortunate circumstance that such expressions should have been employed at all in the present state of affairs in Ireland. Believing, as he did, from all that he heard, that the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland discharged their duties in a most exemplary manner, it appeared to him that it was all important to their character that they should, in the strongest and most public manner, disavow expressions which, if they had been correctly quoted, must be held to be of a most criminal nature—which had urged individuals amongst their flocks to commit the crime of assassination—and which must tend to pervert all ideas of right and wrong in those who heard or read them. If the expressions to which he referred had been rightly quoted, and if the circumstances connected with them which had been so confidently stated in the public papers were well founded, it was incumbent on the heads of the Roman Catholic Church to exercise the authority which they possessed to a greater degree than the heads of any other church over the members of their clergy, to control the expression of such sentiments, and to declare to the world their utter condemnation of them.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL

complained that the clergy of the Roman Catholic Church had been attacked upon no better authority than newspaper reports. None of the accusations preferred against Catholic clergymen had yet been substantiated by proof. The hon. Baronet who had last addressed the House had taken upon himself to lecture the Catholic clergy; but he thought he might venture to say that they would pay very little attention to his lecture. He would take the liberty of hearing his humble testimony to the merits of his lordship the Right Rev. Dr. Ryan. He had always avoided having any connexion with political agitation, and was, indeed, the last man who would make use of language calculated to incite any one to the commission of crime. Another prelate, the Most Rev. Dr. M'Hale, had also been censured by the hon. Member for Bridport for the use of improper language; but the language which the hon. Gentleman quoted amounted merely to a congratulation to the people of Ireland on the unexampled patience with which they had borne their misery. Could any one deny that his unhappy countrymen had endured their sufferings with patience and resignation? The great mass of the Irish people had no concern in the atrocities of which so much had lately been heard. They were the acts of wretches who were out of the pale of the Church, and had not approached the sacraments for years.

MR. REYNOLDS

said, that as an Irish Member and a Roman Catholic, he had heard the charges brought against the Catholic clergy of Ireland with great pain; but now he rejoiced at those charges having been made, because the circumstance had afforded hon. Members who appreciated the merits of that body of men an opportunity of bearing testimony to their character. From some of those who had assailed the Roman Catholic clergy, he expected better things. He had always looked upon the hon. Member for Montrose as the friend of Ireland, and he was disposed to believe him so still; but he regretted to hear that hon. Member last night make a wholesale attack upon the Catholic clergy. Without meaning offence, he must say that he was both grieved and surprised to hear the unwarrantable and unfounded charges which had been directed against the Catholic clergy by the hon. Members for Montrose and Bridport. For his part, he entirely concurred in every sentiment contained in the extract which the hon. Member for Bridport had read that evening. There were in Ireland 2,500 Catholic clergymen, governed by four archbishops and 24 bishops, and that body of ecclesiastics administered to the spiritual wants of 7,000,000 of people. Those figures alone ought to convince hon. Members that the percentage of human life sacrificed in Ireland was small indeed in proportion to the mass of the population. The hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone had referred to the language attributed to Dr. Laffan. He (Mr. Reynolds) was not prepared to defend that language; on the contrary, he condemned it, and regretted that it had been used. It must be taken for granted that the hon. Baronet's Irish correspondent did not send him a garbled account of Dr. Laffan's speech; but it was singular that the hon. Baronet did not read to the House another part of that speech, in which the rev. gentleman said that— Did he stand up in defence of murder? God forbid! He had ever preached, as far as his humble intellect could direct, and with all the sincerity and energy with which his soul was animated, that the blood of man called to heaven for vengeance, and that sooner or later the murderer would come to his own destruction; that even if he avoided the consequences of crime in this world, which was almost impossible, still that in passing the frontiers of eternity the Lord of all Hosts would seize the criminal and deal on him that eternal judgment which they were told awaited the murderer. When language of an opposite description had been quoted from Dr. Laffan's speech, it was only fair that he should have credit for such passages as that which he had just read to the House. At the same time, he wished it to be understood that he thought it was highly culpable in any person, but more especially in a clergyman, to use to an assembly easily excited language which was likely to be misconstrued. As a proof of the estimation in which the conduct of the Roman Catholic clergy was held, he would mention that the Lord Lieutenant had sent Dr. Kennedy, the Roman Catholic bishop of Kilaloe, and the clergy of his diocese, a special letter of thanks for their exertions in preserving the peace of the country.