THE WESLEYANS—EDUCATION.

HC Deb 19 April 1847 vol 91 cc949-52

SIR B. HALL

felt it his duty to state to the House, that for some time past a rumour had prevailed that an arrangement had been entered into between the Government and the Wesleyan body, the object of which was to set aside the opposition which the Wesleyan body had intended to offer to the Government scheme of education. He thought that the best course he could take would be to read to the House the statement which had been put forth in the Conservative organ of the Wesleyans. But first, he should observe, it was rumoured that the Government had made official but private overtures to the Wesleyan leaders in London, who obtained from the Government the following concessions:—1. Government exhibitions to be made only to schools which used the authorized version of the Scriptures; 2. The Wesleyans to be permitted to use their own catechism in their schools; 3. The inspectors of Wesleyan schools to be Wesleyans. The Watchman, the organ of the Conservative party of the Wesleyans, said— We give an account of the important imformation communicated to the Wesleyan committees from a high source, and communicated, we desire to repeat most emphatically, without any solicitation or negotiation on their part. Under these totally altered circumstances it was judged expedient to open a direct intercourse with the Committee of Council, that there might be no misunderstanding on either side. The decided objections felt by the Wesleyan committees to the Minutes of Council were stated in strong, though respectful and temperate language. An official reply was received, which contained explanations so extensive in their bearings as to present the measure in a new aspect altogether, and, we feel bound to say, to remove in a great degree some of the most grave and insuperable objections which, as consistent Wesleyans, the committees urged. Now, he wished to know whether it were correct that the negotiations with the Wesleyan committees were first opened by the Government or any person authorized by the Government? whether it were true that concessions had been made to the Wesleyans to the effect that no Government exhibitions shall be made to schools where the authorized version of the Scriptures is not used? that the inspectors of Wesleyan schools shall be appointed only from the Wesleyan body? and whether it was intended that Roman Catholics were to participate in the present grant, or to be excluded from it? and if they were to be excluded from the present grant, whether the Committee of the Council of Education had it in contemplation to make any proposition by which Roman Catholics would have the same advantages as those given to Church of England and Dissenting schools; and, if so, when any such proposition was likely to be made to Parliament? Also, whether there would be any objection to lay before Parliament copies of all correspondence and communications that had passed between the Government, or persons authorized by the Government, and the Wesleyan body of Dissenters and the Roman Catholic Bishops?

LORD J. RUSSELL

In answer to the questions of my hon. Friend, I will first of all state that communications with the Wesleyan body were, so far as I know, not begun by any person authorized on the part of the Government. A noble Friend of mine, whose name, although I have no authority to mention it, I may fairly state to the House, Lord Ashley, understood from some of the Wesleyan body that they were about to enter into resolutions describing the character of the Minutes of Council in a way which he thought was not in truth applicable to them; he told them that they had better wait, and he would communicate with Lord Lansdowne on the subject, through the Secretary to the Committee of Council, in order to obtain some explanation as to whether the construction they had put on the Minutes was the correct sense or no. The Secretary to the Committee of Council came to Lord Lansdowne and myself, and asked for our directions on the subject. We said, we should have no hesitation in answering any questions the Wesleyan body chose to put, and which might guide them to a correct understanding with respect to these Minutes. I know not, Sir, that there is any blame attributable to us for giving a reply to the questions so put. One of their questions not mentioned by my hon. Friend was, whether persons who held ecclesiastical functions would be eligible to the office of pupil-teachers? and the answer we gave was, that we considered persons holding ecclesiastical titles or exercising ecclesiastical functions not eligible as pupil-teachers. Another question was, whether the authorized version of the Scriptures would be used in the schools? Upon this subject, we informed them that there was a resolution of the Committee of Council, on the 3rd of December, 1839, in which, referring to previous resolutions, it said, that the cases in which it would give assistance to schools would be those —"in which competent provision will be made for the instruction of the children in the schools, the daily reading of a portion of the Scriptures forming part of such instruction. The House is aware of the former resolution; the Votes of Parliament authorized the Committee to give aid to schools connected with the National Society and the British and Foreign School Society, in both of which the authorized version of the Scripture is used; and in using these words, "the daily rending of a portion of the Scriptures," it was understood at the time—and I do not know that there has been any different understanding since—that the authorized version of the Scriptures should be used. I perfectly remember that in 1839 there was another plan which was proposed by the Committee of Council, in which it was intended that the Roman Catholic schools should be allowed to use the Douay version of the Bible, and so intending the Committee of Council expressly so stated, that the public might know such was their intention; therefore if they had intended to do the same thing on the 3rd of December, they would have stated so as expressly as they did on the previous occasion. The next question was, whether the inspectors of Wesleyan schools would be appointed, not from the Wesleyan body, but with the concurrence of the Wesleyan body? The Wesleyans stated that they had hitherto received their assistance through the British and Foreign School Society; that it would be far more agreeable to their feelings and the constitution of their society if the Committee of Education of the Wesleyan body were recognized directly; and that the Committee of Education of the Wesleyan body should have the same power of expressing their opinion—their concurrence being asked before an inspector were appointed to their schools—which the British and Foreign School Society now enjoys in consequence of the letter of Lord Wharncliffe. To that proposition we said we should not object. We should be ready to place before them the name of the person who was intended to inspect their schools, and that he should be appointed with their concurrence. With regard to the exclusion of Roman Catholics, there was no question with the Wesleyan body. As I have stated, the rule which was laid down in 1839 has, I believe, been followed ever since. I do not know that there have been any grants to Roman Catholic schools, exclusively as such. There may have been grants to schools where the authorized version was used, and where Roman Catholics attended; but I do not believe there have been any grants to Roman Catholic schools expressly as such. We have made no alteration in that respect. When it shall have been brought before us—when the Roman Catholic bishops shall have expressed their views on the subject—then will be the time to consider in what manner we can give the advantage of any of the public grants to Roman Catholic schools. I think there are considerable difficulties in the question, arising from the fact that many of these schools being conducted by persons in holy orders, and Protestant children attending them, the Roman Catholic version of the Scriptures only being read, they might be used as a means of proselytism. There are other difficulties attending the subject; for my own part, I trust that when those difficulties come to be considered, we shall be able to propose grants to Roman Catholic schools as well as others. But with respect to the grant of the present year, we do not propose that any part of the 100,000l. we shall now proceed to ask from the House, should be applied to these Roman Catholic schools. If we are able to form a Minute which shall appear to us satisfactory on this subject, we shall either propose some additional grant in the course of the miscellaneous estimates, or reserve the subject for the grants of education proposed in another year. As I have stated, from 1839 down to the present time, no grants have been given to Roman Catholic schools, as such, and at present we make no change on the subject. Having given this reply to the questions put by my hon. Friend, I will now, Sir, propose to this House to read the Order of the Day, with a view to resolve itself into a Committee on the subject of the Vote for Education.