§ On the Question, that 3.340l. be granted for defraying the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England,
§ MR. E. DENISONsaid, that one half of the Commissioners never attended the Board at all; and that those who did at- 1102 tend declared that the way in which the business was conducted was not satisfactory. On a former occasion, the Secretary of State for the Home Department expressed a similar opinion. He did not intend to oppose the vote; but he wanted an assurance that the state of the Commission would be taken into the consideration of Government during the recess, and gave notice that unless some alteration took place in the present mode of conducting business, he would move for a course of inquiry in an early part of the next Session.
§ SIR G. GREYsaid, the hon. Member who had just spoken was quite correct in his statement of his (Sir G. Grey's) opinion given on a late occasion. He thought the constitution of that body, looking to the business they had to transact, and to the increase in that business which had lately taken place, was not satisfactory. Many members of the Commission, who were public officers, were unable to attend the Board. He did not think it would be right to dispense with their services altogether, for though they might not be able to attend regularly, yet they could give their assistance on special occasions, when it might be valuable. What he conceived to be the defect in the constitution of the Commission was, that no one person was responsible for his attendance, nor could be called on to account for the proceedings of the Board. He had already expressed his opinion that there should be some paid person responsible for attendance on the Commissioners; and to whom the House should look for the discharge of the duties of the Board. The subject deserved the serious consideration of Government, and he should be happy to give it his earliest attention.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMScontended, that the cost of the Commission ought to be paid out of the revenues of the Church, and not from the public funds.
§ MR. WAKLEYasked, was it right that the public should pay 3,340l. for being told that a portion of the Commissioners did not attend, and that those who did attend performed their duty badly? It was really bringing the Church into odium, to come to the House and ask for payments of this kind.
§ SIR G. GREYhad never stated that the Commisioners had performed their duties badly; but had objected to the Commission as defectively constructed, since there was a mass of business cast upon its members, 1103 and no one of them was paid for attending to it; many of them, however, voluntarily devoted much time to it, and most efficiently performed their duties when they attended.
§ SIR R. INGLISinsisted that the State, and not the Church, called for the Commission. Its object was to carry into effect an Act of Parliament which the Church opposed, because her property, never having been given by the State, ought not to be so controlled by it. The State ought not to impose upon its victim the expense of the proceeding.
§ MR. HUMEreminded the hon. Baronet that Parliament took the Church property from the Catholics, and gave it to the Protestants; and Parliament which gave, had a right to take when it thought fit. The complaint of the hon. Baronet was very ungrateful, for the object was to reform and purify the Church by getting rid of its sinecures. As to the vote being necessary to give Parliament a control, Parliament could call for an account at any time without this being in the Estimates.
§ MR. F. BARINGconsidered that the bringing the vote annually before Parliament gave the Legislature a practical superintendence.
§ MR. TRELAWNYregarded all taxation of this kind as unjust, and advocated the voluntary principle.
§ DR. BOWRINGasked, why Dissenters were to pay in this instance for the better distribution of money in which they had no interest among a particular body?
LORD J. RUSSELLthought it unnecessary to discuss now the voluntary principle, which he understood to mean that the State was not to pay persons for teaching a particular kind of religion. This vote was asked for to pay a secretary and clerks employed on the business of a Commission, whose office it was to distribute among the parochial clergy, when their stipends were low, certain funds saved from various prebends and sinecure offices; the persons whose salaries were thus to be provided, were no more engaged in teaching, or attempting to teach religion, than if they were clerks at the Admiralty or in the War-office.
§ MR. J. STUARTthought the hon. Member for Finsbury ought first to complain of the wealth of the Church of Scotland, which was greater than that of the Church of England, in proportion to the number of the Clergy. The present vote was not for the purposes of the Church, but 1104 of the State; and the connexion between the Church and the State subsisted for the benefit of the latter, and not of the former. As to what had been said of the voluntary principle—the principle that money raised from persons of various religions ought not to be applied to a purpose disagreeable to any of them, let the consequences of that be thought upon. Why, then, should Quakers pay towards the expense of any war, however just?
SIR R. FERGUSONwould not resist the vote, but he thought it highly desirable that an inquiry should be instituted into the expense of working the Commission in Ireland; and most ardently did he hope that the matter would engage the serious consideration of Her Majesty's Government. The expense amounted, as he was informed? to between 13,000l. and 15,000l. annually. The accounts should be minutely looked into, and the expenditure reduced to as low an amount as was possible under the circumstances.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLobserved that the subject was one to which his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland would not fail to direct his serious attention. He expected to have some account from his noble Friend ere long on the question, together with an exposition of his (the Lord Lieutenant's) views as to what ought to be done; and if it should be deemed advisable to come down to Parliament to seek for new powers in reference to the subject, he (Lord John Russell) would be prepared to do so.
§ Vote agreed to.