HC Deb 06 March 1845 vol 78 cc398-407
Mr. Hume

said, in the absence of his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams), he would, if the House permitted him, bring forward the Motion of which his hon. Friend had given notice. He had come down to the House with the intention of merely seconding the Motion, as he did not think it was a subject on which any discussion should take place until the Papers were before the House. He would therefore beg leave to move for— Copies of all Surveys and Valuations of 7, 438 acres 36 roods of land belonging to the Crown, adjoining to the Duke of Newcastle's Hafod Estate, in Cardiganshire, which has been sold to his Grace by private contract for 1,049l. 15s. 9d. by Her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, as stated in Appendix, No. 2(A), in the said Commissioners' Report for 1844.

The Earl of Lincoln

said, he had great ground to complain of the hon. Member for Coventry for the course which he had felt it to be consistent with his duty to take upon that occasion, in having absented himself from the House when he should have brought forward the Motion which had been just made by the hon. Member for Montrose—a Motion which, in his estimation, not only did imply, but was evidently meant to imply, a case of grave corruption against, him in his official capacity. The hon. Member, however, after having placed that Notice upon the Books, sought to deprive him, as far as it lay in his power to do so, of the opportunity of hearing the charges that were brought against him, and of refuting them in his place in Parliament. That opportunity was, however, now afforded him, through the means of the hon. Member for Montrose, to whom he begged to tender his best thanks for having placed himself in the position of the hon. Member for Coventry, and for having brought forward, unsolicited by that hon. Member, the charges which he had himself shrunk from sustaining. Were it not for the kindness of the hon. Member for Montrose, he should have been deprived of the opportunity of answering those charges—an opportunity of which he was most anxious to avail himself. Before entering into the case, he wished again to express his conviction that a more unfair or a more improper course than that taken by the hon. Member for Coventry could not possibly be conceived; for not only was the character of a public servant valuable to himself, individually, but it was also of importance to the public at large, who were interested in his integrity; and, therefore, when an insinuation such as that contained in the Resolution before the House was either made, or, as in the present case, implied, it was most necessary that the very earliest opportunity should be afforded to the party affected by it of offering any explanation in his power to make. He did not complain of the hon. Member for Coventry for having put that Notice on the Books; but he complained of him for not bringing it forward. He knew in his own conscience that he had executed his public duty, not only in that, but in every other instance, so as to leave him perfectly free from any imputation such as that which the Notice of the hon. Member sought to cast upon him. He did not complain that the hon. Member for Coventry should on that, as on other occasions, have cherished suspicions such as he entertained for all the acts of the Executive, but he did complain that that hon. Member was not there to state his suspicions to the House. Having made these preliminary remarks to the House, he would next proceed to the facts of the case. Though the hon. Member for Montrose had suggested that the Papers should be laid upon the Table before any discussion would arise upon them, he was sure the hon. Gentleman would forgive him if he did not attend to his suggestion; but if he proceeded to show that when the Papers were produced, not only he, but even the hon. Member for Coventry himself, must admit that no grounds whatever existed for the insinuations which were put forth respecting the transactions referred to. It would appear from that Notice that a contract had been entered into between him, as the head of the Board of Woods and Forests, and his father, the Duke of Newcastle. Such was not the case. The former possessor of the estate of Hafod was a Colonel Johnes. He did not know in what year that gentleman died, but during his lifetime a claim had been put forward by the Crown of certain rights over a portion of the estate, which he considered belonged to himself. There was every reason to believe that this claim of the Crown could be justified, but no arrangement had been come to; and after the death of Colonel Johnes, the estate remained in the hands of his devisees. In the year 1832, the devisees came to the determination to dispose of the property, and it was accordingly attempted to be sold several times by private contract, but without success. The devisees then determined to put up the estate to public auction; and before doing so they thought it necessary to clear up the differences respecting the rights of the Crown which had been put forward, as he had already observed, on frequent occasions during the lifetime of Colonel Johnes, as well as after his death. They accordingly made a proposal to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests of that day for the purchase of the rights of the Crown. After considerable negotiation, commencing during Colonel Johnes's lifetime, and continued by his devisees after his death, it was agreed that a survey and valuation of the lands should be made on the part of the Crown by Mr. Morgan; and a second valuation was made by Mr. Adam Murray, a gentleman well known as a most experienced valuer of land—on the part of the devisees. These valuations took place in 1832, in which year the contract had been entered into between the Crown and the devisees. He need not say that the Duke of Newcastle had nothing whatever to do with this contract, as his treaty for the purchase of the estate did not commence for a long time after, when he purchased the Hafod estate subject to this contract. The valuation by Mr. Morgan showed a result of 8,061 acres, valued at a sum of 1,098l. He thought he saw some hon. Gentlemen opposite smile at the trifling value set upon so large a tract of land, but he would presently explain what the rights were, and that would explain the amount of the valuation. It should also be recollected that the valuation by the Crown was made under an Act of Parliament, which required that the valuator should be sworn as to the truth of his return, and the valuation by Mr. Morgan, which he then held in his hand, was subscribed as having been duly sworn. Mr. Adam Murray's valuation estimated the land at the same quantity, and the amount of the value of it at 652l. These double valuations did not, however, bring the matter to a conclusion, from the circumstance that, without reference to the amount of the valuation, Col. Johnes's devisees continued to dispute the right of the Crown, as Col. Johnes had done before them. However, having in 1832 determined to put the lands up to sale by auction, they thought it better even to make a sacrifice of their rights to a certain extent, in order that all difficulty in the way of the sale might be removed. He had then in his hand the Report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, signed by Lord Duncannon and Sir Benjamin Stevenson, recommending to the Lords of the Treasury that the rights of the Crown over the 8,061 acres should be relinquished for a sum of 800l. He had also the Order of the Treasury, signed by Lord Nugent, Mr. George Ponsonby, and Mr. Francis Baring, three of the Lords of the Treasury, and bearing date the 29th of September, 1832, authorising the sale of the lands on those terms. He wished in the next place to draw the attention of the House to the conditions of sale which were published at the time. One of these conditions, the seventh, was as follows:— A claim having been made by the Crown to part of the estates, as waste lands belonging to the Crown, which, in the event of an inclosure, would entitle the Crown to a portion of the same lands; such claim was lately compromised by the vendors, and all the alleged rights of the Crown over such waste lands have been absolutely sold and transferred to the vendors; but subject to a reservation by the Crown of the mines and minerals (if any); but which it is believed do not exist under such waste lands; and the vendors, therefore, stipulate that no objection shall be made on account of such reservation, or any alleged rights of common. The date of this is just prior to the former Treasury warrant; but no doubt hon. Gentlemen were aware, that in such cases, after application to the Treasury, the warrant of the Treasury authorizing such arrangements was sometimes issued subsequently to the sale. The sale was advertised on the 6th of September, 1832. To render it still more clear that the Duke of Newcastle had nothing to do with this arrangement, he should state that the estate was not bought at the auction room, but some time subsequently. The estate was put up by Mr. G. Robins, but was afterwards sold by private contract. A difficulty then arose, first on the part of Col. Johnes's devisees, and subsequently on the part of the Duke of Newcastle, the purchaser, on account of there being no boundaries marked to the estate. There was some irregularity in this part of the proceeding, he was bound to admit, on the part of the Office of Woods, the contract having been entered into without any boundaries being defined, and without there being any plan of the estate whatever. Of course, their solicitors could not make out the title nor complete the sale, nor would the solicitor for the purchaser enter into any negotiations till that fault was remedied. For four years subsequently to this demand on the part of the Crown, no plan was furnished by the Office. Still, further negotiations went on, the Duke of Newcastle, as Col. Johnes had done before him, maintaining that the Crown had no title to the lands whatever, and that if he paid anything whatever to the Crown, he should be paying twice over for the estate. A plan was at length produced. It was then found that the estate was 7,438 acres, instead of 8,061, as had been stated; and, of course, the Office of Woods and Forests made such proportionate abatement in the price demanded as the purchaser was entitled to, which was 62l., and that sum was deducted, and the price then demanded from the Duke of Newcastle was 738l. This sum, so demanded, was paid in August, 1843. But how stood the case? As the hon. Gentleman would perceive from the notice given, instead of 738l. being paid, the sum paid was 1,049l. 15s. 9d. That sum was made up in this way:—Although the Office of Woods and Forests was in fault with regard to not furnishing the plans, and thereby stood in the way of the completion of the purchase for four years, he (the Earl of Lincoln) had required the Duke of Newcastle, before the completion of the purchase, to pay interest on the purchase-money from the time of the contract, at the rate of 4 per cent, for ten years. He was ready to admit that he believed this in almost any case might be considered what was vulgarly called rather "sharp practice;" but finding that that had been very much the spirit in which the whole transaction had been pursued throughout the prior negotiations, he was determined, for his own satisfaction, and for the satisfaction of his father, that not the slightest deviation from the arrangement which had taken place before should be made. However, under other circumstances, and with other individuals, he might have been disposed to re-open the case, in order to make a more favourable and equitable adjustment, he told his father it was necessary, whilst he (the Earl of Lincoln) remained at the Office of Woods and Forests, that he should either complete the purchase on those terms, or not at all; and, of course, the alternative would have probably been, that the property would have been sold with a lawsuit, or the sale would have failed altogether. His father thought that he had been hardly used, but at last agreed to the conditions, because he was in the same situation as Col. Johnes's devisees had been ten years before, and was about to sell the property; and therefore he was anxious, by completing the title as fully as possible, and removing all doubts, to make it the more marketable. He not only paid 738l. for the claim, but 311l. 15s. 9d. interest, being nearly one-half of the whole value of the property. An hon. Member had smiled when he mentioned this sum, and he had stated that he would mention what these Crown rights were, supposing them to exist at all. He believed that they had existed formerly; at the same time he must say, that very considerable doubt rested over the whole transaction. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests maintained that the Crown was lord of the manor, and that Col. Johnes and other freeholders had simply rights of common over this waste. If such were the case, the way in which Col. Johnes became the possessor of the property was this;—he was the most powerful freeholder, and he gradually drove off all the minor freeholders and kept them off the manor for a period of twenty years, and thus precluded the rights of the commoners to the land, although sixty years were required to debar the Crown's rights. If the Crown had any rights at all, they were simply rights of soil. The Crown had no power even to plant a tree or to place a goat there, as the whole of the pasture belonged to Col. Johnes, and afterwards to the Duke of Newcastle: the Crown, therefore, had only a nominal right, unless mines and minerals had existed there, and the right to minerals was not sold to the Duke of Newcastle, but was specially reserved. The Crown never did previously to this sale and never could receive a single farthing from the property; and the only right of the Crown was this, that in the event of inclosures being made (and any one who had seen that district, which he had not, would acknowledge that a more improbable event could hardly be conceived), the Crown would be entitled to one-twentieth part of the inclosure. That accounted for the smallness of the sum at which the property was estimated by the sworn valuer for the Crown, and by the valuer for the devisees, if the oath of the valuer for the Crown were not thought a sufficient guarantee. He, therefore, maintained, and every Gentleman would agree with him, that even if this had been an original transaction between the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, with himself at the head of the Board, and his noble father, a case more clear from suspicion could not be. But even that was not the case. His father had nothing to do with the contract; the contract was entered into with other parties, and his father purchased the estate subject to the contract, which the Crown had the power to enforce, as his father maintained always, most unjustly and unfairly. He thought he had clearly shown to the House that this property was worth nothing for possession, and that it was simply worth something for sale, in order to establish a complete title where a doubt existed. The whole sum received, therefore, was clear gain to the public, as the public could never receive anything in point of rent or anything whatever from the property. His opinion had always been, and it was the opinion of others, that the Duke of Newcastle had some cause to complain; but he was certain of this, that neither the House, nor the public, nor the hon. Member for Coventry, had cause to complain of this transaction. He was perfectly ready to produce every document, and should be most anxious to produce every document; when a charge of this sort was brought against a public servant, his character should be thoroughly cleared. He should be most anxious to lay on the Table of the House every letter. He had consulted the solicitors upon it, and had urged upon them the necessity of doing this; but they had assured him that the mass of unimportant documents was so great (as many as two or three letters a week at one time passing between the solicitors on each side) that it would fill one of those large blue books which were sometimes laid on the Table of the House, and he was therefore unwilling to put the country to the expense of that mass of paper, which nobody would read; but he would produce every paper in his possession, the surveys, the valuation, the contract which appertained to it; and he would produce the conveyance from the Office of Woods and Forests to the Duke of Newcastle, the Reports of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to the Treasury in 1832, and the Treasury warrant of 1832. He believed that these documents, without giving the papers which passed between the solicitors on each side, would elucidate this transaction; but if not, if there were the smallest doubt about the matter, he hoped the hon. Member for Coventry would state it in the House, and that the House would permit him to do what he should be very unwilling otherwise to do—to lay on the Table of the House this mass of papers, showing every turn and twist of this transaction. He was perfectly certain that the mind of the hon. Member for Coventry, suspicious as it might be in transactions of this nature, would be quite satisfied; and if that hon. Member had any feeling of honour or fair play—and in the latter of these respects he (the Earl of Lincoln) thought he had some cause to complain of the hon. Member — he would come forward and state that the documents which he (the Earl of Lincoln) should lay on the Table of the House had cleared him completely from those imputations on his character, which the Notice which he had placed on the Books of the House had been so well calculated to throw upon it.

Mr. Hume

could not hesitate for a moment in rising to say that he was perfectly satisfied, as he was sure the House must be, with the statement of the noble Lord, for a more complete explanation he had never heard. But after the statement of the noble Earl, and after the documents which he had produced of these proceedings, from the period when Lord Duncannon was at the head of the Department to the present day; it was impossible for any man at all acquainted with the sale of property of this nature not to mark the accuracy and regularity of the whole proceeding, and that now not the least doubt could remain on the subject. He thought, after this, that he should be acting most disingenuously if he allowed for one moment that these Papers should be produced. He was sure that the noble Lord, with his usual candour and firmness, would admit that he was pleased with the opportunity of making this explanation, and was quite confident that after it no one could entertain any doubt on the subject. He conceived that no blame was attached to his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, for, having seen the statement of the fact without explanation in the Report of the Commissioners, he had shown it to him, when he (Mr. Hume) remarked that it appeared somewhat irregular; the consequence was that his hon. Friend had given notice on the subject. He would only repeat that he was most happy to have heard the manly and candid statement of the noble Lord, and after this explanation he should be very reluctant to have any document on the subject laid on the Table. Having made the Motion, he should now move for leave to withdraw it, merely adding, that so far from any blame being attached to the noble Lord, that he had most completely exonerated himself from the slightest suspicion.

Mr. Shaw

wished to state, before the Motion was withdrawn, that it had been mentioned to him in the early part of the evening by his hon. Friend the Member for Lymington, that he had occasion to look into in to the matter when the property was offered for sale, and he was convinced that if this claim of the Crown had been exposed for public sale, it would not have produced 20l.

The Earl of Lincoln

said, he hoped, although it was not altogether regular, that he should be permitted to make an observation. He wished, in the first place, to express his acknowledgment to the hon. Member for Montrose for the course that he had adopted. He privately had sincerely thanked him for having taken the place of the hon. Member for Coventry and brought forward this Motion, and he now again thanked the hon. Gentleman most sincerely for the expressions which he had made use of towards him. He hoped, notwithstanding the general cheers from both sides which had taken place at the proposal to withdraw the Motion, and which showed that the House was satisfied with his explanation—he hoped that the House would, more in satisfaction to his own feelings, than for any other reason, not agree to the withdrawal of the Motion. He only requested therefore the hon. Member to leave out the last words of the Motion, "for copies of all correspondence relating thereto," and if hereafter the hon. Member for Coventry should wish for that return, it should be produced.

Mr. Hume

observed that if such was the wish of the noble Lord he was bound to assent.

The Motion as restricted was agreed to.

House adjourned at eight o'clock.