HC Deb 28 July 1845 vol 82 cc1162-8

The first Question was, that the sum of 3,410l., be granted to defray the charges of the Civil Establishment of the Bahama Islands.

Mr. C. Buller

wished to make some observations on this Vote. The population of the Bahamas was 25,000, and the local revenue was 21,943l. He thought, that with such a revenue they ought not to come to this country for any more. The great principle of these Colonies ought to be that they should cut their coat according to their cloth. He found in these Votes 5,670l. for judicial officers. Then there was an income of 3,227l. for clergymen. Could these Colonies provide nothing for clergymen? He did not mean to divide the House; but he hoped that next Session these Estimates would be brought forward at a better time, and that those who objected to these charges on this country would take the opportunity of recording their sentiments on the subject.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that a sum of 4,049l. be granted for the Civil Establishment of the Bermudas,

Mr. C. Buller

said, that this was on a different footing, as the Bermudas were a penal settlement, but considering that the population was only 10,000, and the revenue 15,000l., and that this year there was a surplus of 1,907l., they ought not to come and ask of this country a sum of 4,049l.

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, that the Bermudas were a great military station, in consequence of their being a penal settlement, and that increased the charge. This relief had always been given to the Colony, for though in some years there was a surplus, in others there was a deficiency.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that the sum of 3,070l. be granted, to defray the charges of the Civil Establishment at Prince Edward's Island,

Mr. C. Buller

said, that this was about the worst case he knew. The population of this Colony was nearly 50,000; the revenue was 10,500l.; the island possessed a very rich soil, and an admirable climate, and yet we were charged with this additional Estimate. He did not object to the payment by this country of the salary of the Lieutenant Governor, for he thought the most prudent course would be to defray from the public funds of this country the salaries of Colonial Governors and of their secretaries. But he could not conceive why the Colony should not pay the salaries of its chief justice, attorney general, and other officers. He would not now divide the House on this Vote; but he wished to state, that it was his intention, during the next Session of Parliament, to do more than merely call the attention of the House to these subjects.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that the sum of 12,000l. be granted to defray the charge for the Civil Establishment at St. Helena, and for pensions and allowances to Officers of the East India Company's late establishment in that Island,

Mr. Williams

said, he thought this Vote excessive in amount. There were in St. Helena forty officers paid by the people of this country, to govern a population of 4,800 persons; and the collection of a revenue of 15,000l. in that island cost 2,593l., or about 17½ per cent. During the war this island was of great importance to the East India Company, and he thought that Company ought to pay the salaries and allowances of their retired officers.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that 7,219l. be granted to defray the Expenses of the Settlement of Western Australia,

Mr. C. Buller

said, the population of this Colony consisted of 3,476 persons, and these unhappy people were taxed, for local purposes, to the amount of 9,070l, or nearly 3l. a head. He wished to know how that money was spent?

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, if the hon. and learned Gentleman had given notice of the question, he would have been prepared to answer it. There were numerous charges for colonial chaplains, colonial surgeons, and other purposes which were not included in the present estimate.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, a considerable sum had been expended in this Colony in the erection of public buildings.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that a sum of 3,171l. be granted to defray the Expenses incurred at South Australia,

Mr. Hindley

said, the Government had made an agreement with purchasers of land in this Colony, by which the money paid for land was to be applied to the promotion of emigration. A very extravagant outlay had been made by one of the Governors on public buildings; the late Government had refused to honour his bills; and a sum of 56,000l. had been appropriated from the funds acquired by the sale of land to defray this outlay, instead of its being applied to the extension of emigration. He wished to know whether the Government intended to apply the sum which had thus been taken from the fund to purposes of emigration?

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, the agreement was that the fund derived from the sale of land should be liable, in the first instance, to meet any expenses necessary for the purposes of the Government; and that, if it was not so required, it should be applied to promote emigration. It was, undoubtedly, the intention of the Government to apply as large a proportion as possible of the money received for the sale of land to the promotion of emigration to South Australia.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that the sum of 329l. be granted in aid of the charge of the Settlement at Port Essington,

Mr. C. Buller

asked whether there was any truth in the report, that it was the intention of the Government to establish convict Colonies in the northern part of New Holland?

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, there was no intention of establishing such a settlement at or near Port Essington. He could not say that such an establishment might not be formed in the north of New Holland, but nothing had yet been determined on the subject.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that the sum of 11,353l. be granted for Expenses of the Ecclesiastical Establishment of the British North American Provinces to the 31st of May, 1846,

Mr. W. Williams

objected to the Vote. He thought that the proposed amount was too much; besides this, he thought that the principle of paying the clergy by votes of this kind was most objectionable, especially in a Colony like Canada. He wished to know what had become of the proceeds of the hundreds of thousands of acres that had been reserved for the clergy, and which had been actually sold to defray some of the expenses of the Colony. Why, he wished to ask, had not the produce of those sales been applied to the payment of the clergy? He would divide the Committee upon the Vote.

Dr. Bowring

objected to the difference between the amount of salary paid to the Protestant and Roman Catholic bishops of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.

Mr. Sheil

objected to the distinctions made between the salaries paid to the Roman Catholic and the Protestant bishops in the Colonies. In Newfoundland, for instance, the salary of the Roman Catholic bishop was only 75l. a year, whilst the salary of the Protestant bishop in the same locality was so large as to afford a remarkable contrast. He thought that distinctions of this kind ought not to be so remarkably kept up in a Colony inhabited by a Roman Catholic population.

Mr. Hope

said, that the sum paid to the Roman Catholic bishops in Canada was the subject of agreement with the Government, and must be continued during their lives.

Mr. Sheil

said, that he only wished to call the attention of the House to the disparity between the payment to the Roman Catholic clergy and to the Protestant clergy. He thought that a distinction of this kind ought not to be made.

Viscount Sandon

observed, that the Protestant bishop of Newfoundland got nothing at all; and before they proposed any increase to the amount paid to the Roman Catholic bishop, they ought to be sure that he would receive it, seeing how much opposed the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Ireland were to any connexion with or payment by the State.

Mr. C. Buller

said, that the Roman Catholic Church in Canada was richly endowed. The Catholic clergy in Canada were well provided for, and most comfortably situated. The Established Church was also well provided for. However, without wishing to deprive those establishments of their endowments, he should vote with the hon. Member for Coventry.

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, that the whole of these charges were for the lives of the individuals only.

Mr. C. Buller

observed, that if so, if they were merely annuities payable to certain individuals, he would not oppose the Vote.

Viscount Sandon

said, it would be an extremely improvident act to dispose of the clergy revenues at present, as suggested by the hon. Member for Coventry, inasmuch as they were of but little value. Let them first train the inhabitants of those provinces to habits of industry and civilization, by which means those lands might be rendered much more valuable; and then, if they pleased, dispose of them. But it would be a miserable and mistaken economy to do so at present.

Mr. Sheil

observed, that with regard to Lower Canada, there were no episcopal estates there. As yet, too, the Legislative Assembly of Lower Canada was undisturbed by religious dissensions, and he thought it would be very bad policy to introduce such dissension for the sake of so small a sum.

Dr. Bowring

opposed the Vote.

Mr. Collett

wished to ask, whether on the decease of the present Colonial bishops the charge would still be continued?

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, that the impression was that those charges would cease; but that impression depended only upon statements made in Parliament.

Mr. Williams

observed, that the same assertion had been made in 1845, and yet that the Vote remained the same.

Mr. Hope

said, that the Vote had been diminished.

The Committee divided.—Ayes 60: Noes 18; Majority 42.

List of the AYES.
Acland, T. D. Hayes, Sir E.
Acton, Col. Henley, J. W.
Barkly, H. Herbert, rt. hon. S.
Baring, rt. hon. W. B. Hope, J. W.
Blackburne, J. I. Hotham, Lord
Borthwick, P. Ingestre, Visct.
Bowles, Adm. Jocelyn, Visct.
Broadley, H. Jones, Capt.
Bruce, Lord E. Lefroy, A.
Bruges, W. H. L. Lincoln, Earl of
Cardwell, E. Mackenzie, W. F.
Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. Masterman, J.
Clive, hon. R. H. Meynell, Capt.
Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G. Morgan, O.
Corry, rt. hn. H. Nicholl, rt. hon. J.
Cripps, W. Pakington, J. S.
Darby, G. Palmer, G.
Denison, E. B. Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.
Duncombe, hon. A. Peel, J.
Estcourt, T. G. B. Pringle, A.
Fitzroy, hon. H. Sandon, Visct.
Fremantle, rt. hn. Sir T. Scott, hon. F.
Gardener, J. D. Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.
Gaskell, J. M. Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C.
Gordon, hon. Capt. Somerset, Lord G.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Spooner, R.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. Stuart, H.
Hamilton, G. A. Tennent, J. E.
Hamilton, W. J. Thesiger, Sir F.
TELLERS.
Trotter, J. Young, J.
Vesey, hon. T. Baring, H.
List of the NOES.
Bouverie, hon. E. P. Mitchell, T. A.
Bowring, Dr. Morris, D.
Brotherton, J. Plumridge, Capt.
Buller, C. Protheroe, E.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Sheridan, R. B.
Collett, J. Wakley, T.
Duncan, G. Wawn, J. T.
Dundas, Adm.
Fielden, J. TELLERS.
Hawes, B. Williams, W.
Hindley, C. Crawford, W. S.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that the sum of 18,895l. be granted for the Indian Department in Canada,

Mr. Hindley

objected to it, on the ground that the amount necessary for that department should be procured on the voluntary system.

Mr. C. Buller

said, that his impression was, that if that sum were to be paid by the people of this country, the best thing that could be done with it would be to throw it into the sea at once, for he believed that money never was more scandalously applied. When he held office in Canada, he caused inquiries to be made into the management of these Indian settlements, and he found that there were not three real Indians in the whole of them, in Lower Canada. The people were a kind of half-caste, and were as dissolute, worthless, and idle a population as were to be found anywhere on the face of the globe. The largest item in the Vote was one of 14,157l. for Indian presents, stores, &c., and be was aware that some importance was attached to those presents; but he was sure any one who was acquainted with the circumstances in which they were made would agree with him that they did a great deal more mischief than good. The Governor went up into the settlement, and he took care to give to the inhabitants nothing but what should be really useful, such as clothing, agricultural implements, and so on; but the fact was, that traders always went up also at the same time with the Governor, carrying with them brandy and tobacco, and articles of that description. The inhabitants, directly they received their presents from the Governor, exchanged them with the traders for the tobacco and brandy; and the consequence was, that the whole settlement invariably became the scene of the most licentious debauchery for the next fortnight or three weeks. He contended that there should be some inquiry as to the sums voted away for purposes of this nature. Upon such a subject no one could better advise the Government than Lord Metcalfe; and he hoped that before next year a report would be obtained from that noble Lord as to the utility of those presents.

Mr. G. W. Hope

said, that the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman had been anticipated. Inquiries were going forward, and he hoped, before next Session, information on the subject would be in the hands of Her Majesty's Government.

Mr. W. Williams

thought that those presents were completely thrown away. Many of the Indians were better off than our agricultural labourers at home.

Vote agreed to.

On the Question that 48,800l. be granted for defraying the expenses of Stipendiary Justices in our West India Colonies,

Mr. Hawes

said, they were nearly useless. In his opinion, an annual report ought to be made, setting forth the nature and extent of the services which they performed.

Mr. G. W. Hope

said a few words in support of the Vote, the purport of which it was impossible to catch in the gallery.

Mr. W. Williams

said, that he so decidedly disapproved of the Vote, that he should divide the Committee on it.

The Committee divided.—Ayes 61: Noes 10; Majority 51.

On the Question that the sum of 80,000l. be granted for the Expenses of the Establishment at Hong Kong, and the British Ports in China.

Mr. Hawes

said, he thought this was an immense sum to commence with at these establishments.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, the expenses of living were very high at these places, and that in consequence of their reported insalubrity it had been found necessary to give increased salaries to induce persons to accept offices there.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman then reported progress. House resumed. Committee to sit again.