RAILWAYS. (Hansard, 6 August 1844)

§ Mr. W. E. Gladstone

moved that the Lords' Amendments to the Railways Bill be agreed to. As the Amendments proposed had been fully discussed, he hoped that the House would at once accede to them. The view of the Select Committee on Railways was, that the best course to take (as expressed in their Report) would be to have no legislation whatever upon Sunday travelling, but to leave the matter to the discretion of the Railway Companies. A strong impression prevailed, not only in this, but in the other House, that if Railway Companies were allowed in the exercise of their discretion, to run trains on Sundays, the principle of competition should be disclaimed. At the same time it was thought, that if such companies 1844 had the power to do so, they must not decline to make provision for the persons usually known as third-class passengers. On that principle, the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton was agreed to; but that Amendment involved a good deal more. The Amendment, as carried by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. Thornely) went to impose upon the Government of the country the duty of superintending the management of the Sunday third-class trains. Now, he thought it was impossible for Government to discharge these duties with any satisfaction to the public, as by the proposed arrangements it would be incumbent on the Board of Trade to say when the trains in question were to start, at what places they were to stop, and for what given time; and, in short, the details of every thing connected with the working of railways on Sundays, for the purpose of enabling the poorer classes to travel thereby, would be thrown upon the Board of Trade, and matters would be brought before them which they were very incompetent parties to decide. The course which he would be prepared to recommend to the House, waving his old opinion, would be to accede to the House of Lords' Amendments. They were very simple, and restricted the compulsory obligation to run particular trains, subject to the control of the Board of Trade, to every week-day in Scotland, and in England every week-day except Christmas Day and Good Friday. As to the Clause for carrying third-class passengers on Sundays, there was also a disposition to object to the Clause that it did not provide for the fares to be paid by such passengers. Now, he humbly conceived that it was not possible for the House of Lords to take the question of fares into consideration, and that they had no right to meddle with a power of charging which existed in the Railway Companies. He had no intention to make any proposal on the subject, as any change which he might suggest would compel him to depart from the arrangement to which he had come with the Railway Companies. There was another subject on which he was anxious not to be misunderstood, and it was, that these trains gave to third-class passengers as much accommodation as to the stations at which they stopped as to the passengers of other class-trains. That advantage had been secured by the Clause as it stands. There was but one other 1845 point on which a difference of opinion prevailed, viz. whether the third-class carriages run in trains should be covered from the weather, and the seats secured thereby from wet. As to that proposition he hoped that the House would not insist upon it. He did not think that they could adopt it in justice to the Railway Companies, and he believed that the Clause as it stood was more conducive to the objects in view than if such a provision was made. If such was done, the Railway Companies would find themselves in such a condition, that if they complied with the requisition to carry third class passengers in public carriages at the rate of twenty miles an hour, they would thereby offer a premium to the very best class of travellers to avail themselves of so cheap and safe a means of conveyance. Such a train, too, might be run as would meet the provisions of the law by arranging the carriages in a manner so uncomfortable as to exclude from them all but third class passengers. If they interfered with the power of the Railway Company to carry passengers and also with the covering of the carriages, he could not say but that the charge of injustice and indirect interference would be well founded, unless they agreed to prescribe a lower rate of speed, such as twelve miles by way of set off. One of the objects of the provisions as to the third class passengers was, that the labouring classes might be easily carried out of the neighbourhood of large towns into the country, and if they were allowed to go by quick trains, although without any security from being covered, it would give them much greater amount of opportunity for doing so than if their carriages were covered, and the Companies, from the smallness of the fare, were compelled to carry them with less speed. He was willing to propose, on the whole, that the House should accede to the Lords' Amendments. The points embraced in those Amendments were so few, that those who took an interest in the subject would have no difficulty at once in mastering them, and he trusted that the arrangements now contemplated would prove satisfactory to all parties.