HC Deb 20 March 1843 vol 67 cc1132-5
Mr. William Williams

Before the House went into committee, he must complain of the haste with which the estimates were to be passed, those now to be discussed having been delivered only on Friday and that morning.

Mr. Hume

begged to inform the Government that he had no objection to passing the vote for Exchequer Bills and the Commissariat, but he could not agree to the immediate progress with the vote for Civil Contingencies.

Mr. William Williams

thought the right hon. Gentleman had better propose one vote for the whole sum required, than carry on such a farce as this. He desired to know at what rate of interest the new Exchequer Bills were to be issued. He hoped also that the House would not vote away the public money, unless they were assured that the taxes now in existence were sufficient to pay this vast amount of expenditure. He supposed that as the right hon. Gentleman had now received six months of the Income-tax, he would tell whether he had or had not the means, with the existing taxes, to pay the expenditure; and, if he could not, the House ought to wait till the Budget was before the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

replied, that the Exchequer Bills would be issued at an interest of 1¾ d. a-day. The hon. Gentleman had asked whether the money already supplied would pay the charges already voted. Now, as far as the 11,000,000l.. or 12,000,000l. already voted, the revenue was ample to meet it. The appeals under the Income-tax had caused considerable delay, and he, therefore, was not able to give the hon. Member any information as to the exact amount of the tax.

Dr. Bowring

said, that the civil contingency estimates extended over fifteen pages, which were all details, and it was rather too great a tax, even on the forbearance of the Opposition, now to press them.

Mr. W. Williams

observed, that the right hon. Gentleman had stated to the House that he meant to issue the Exchequer Bills at the interest of 1¾d. per day, which was 2¾ per cent., whilst money in the market was not worth more than I or 1½ per cent. He would ask, what were the circumstances of the country which required 1¼ per cent. more to be paid for money borrowed by the public than money raised by private individuals? Exchequer Bills now bore a premium in the market of 70s., or 3½ per cent. That was the premium of the day, and it was equal to one-and-a-quarter year's interest. The circumstances of the money market did not warrant the right hon. Gentleman in entertaining the slightest alarm, besides he had always the power of raising the interest on Exchequer Bills, a most improper power, as he (Mr. Williams) thought, to trust with any Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he had no power of decreasing the interest; at any rate, he did not recollect that it had ever been exercised. He had no doubt if the Chancellor of the Exchequer issued the bills at the rate of 1¼d. a-day, he would have no difficulty in obtaining the amount required. It was most unjust towards the people to waste the public money, by giving so much more interest for money borrowed on public securities than was given by private individuals. If the right hon. Gentleman, or any one on the Treasury benches, wanted to raise money, or to make a purchase on their own account, they would not give more than the fair market price for what they required; and why should they not act in the same way for the public? He would like the right hon. Gentleman to show him the necessity for paying 2¾per cent. When the market price was not more than 1 or 1½ per cent. He had been told by one of the largest merchants connected with the trade of London, that he had 100,000l., for which he could not get more than 1 per cent. As the amount to be saved was very large, the right hon. Gentleman was bound to clear up the matter to the satisfaction of the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, it was imagined, because upon a particular occasion money could be obtained temporarily at 1 per cent, that the Exchequer Bills could circulate at that interest. With all deference to the hon. Gentleman's knowledge in matters of this description, he must say, that in regulating the interest on Exchequer Bills, they were not able to take the rate from a reference to a particular time or to the temporary circumstances of the market. In one week, in the City, the rate of interest might vary from I per cent. to 2½ or 3 per cent., and they would be involved in perpetual difficulty by adopting the lowest amount of interest for the moment in the market. The hon. Member must consider that the price of the funds gave 3⅛ per cent. interest; and although he admitted that it was the duty of the Government to avail themselves of every favourable opportunity to reduce the interest on Exchequer Bills, according to circumstances, yet he could not agree that they should make any reduction hastily and rashly, without considering all the facts which were calculated to affect the general rate of interest. He had been told the other day, by a gentleman connected with banking in the City, that money might be had for nothing. Of course, the meaning of that was, that money accommodation could be had at a very low rate of interest. But he did not think Government could avail itself of such a state of the money market without introducing the greatest confusion.

Lord John Russell

objected to going into the miscellaneous estimates that night, some of them having been delivered only on Friday, and the others only that day. Many were arranged in a different way, and connected with different portions of expenditure from what they were formerly; and it did appear to him, that taking these two things together, they were proceeding too rapidly. He must observe, also, that the course which he used to adopt when he held office was now departed from. The course which he (Lord John Russell) had been accustomed to take, was always to give notice in the votes of the particular orders which he proposed to proceed with. He was desirous that it should be stated upon the paper that certain orders of the day would be taken before the other orders.

Sir Robert Peel

said, it appeared on the notices that his hon. Friend, the Secretary of the Treasury, Sir, George Clerk, would move the Exchequer Bills, the commissariat estimates, the civil contingencies, and the miscellaneous estimates, in committee of supply; and, as there was none but Government business on the paper, he thought it might be inferred that they would be taken first. However, he agreed with the noble Lord that it would be better to follow the course which he had suggested; and he would take care that that course should be pursued for the future. He believed that the order in which the estimates would be taken had been stated on Friday. The civil contingencies, he believed, had been delivered on Thursday morning. He proposed first to take the Exchequer bills, then the commissariat estimates. To that he imagined there would be no objection. He then proposed to go on with the civil contingencies, and if any objections should be made to going on with the other estimates he would not press them.

Mr. Hume

had no objection to going on with the Exchequer bills and the commissariat estimates; but, with regard to the civil contingencies, they contained so many items many of them new, that he should certainly object to going on with them until further time had been given for their consideration.

Sir Robert Peel

said, that the estimates for the civil contingencies had been in the hands of the hon. Member ever since Thursday morning.

House in Committee of