HC Deb 27 February 1843 vol 66 cc1351-8
Mr. S. Crawford

must entreat the attention of the Government to the propositions contained in the resolution of which he had given notice, and which it would now become his duty to submit to the House. At such a period as the present, when most severe and extensive distress prevailed throughout the country, it was, he thought, the duty of the House to endeavour to alleviate that distress by lightening the burden of taxation. This, he conceived, could not be effectually done, unless they took into consideration the whole public expenditure of the country, and the means by which it was to be defrayed; and in his opinion, before they assented to votes of the public money, they ought to know what amount of revenue could be drawn from the country without unnecessarily oppressing the people. It had been said, that the necessary expenditure of the country must be defrayed; but he thought that those who had the control of the revenue of the country ought, imitating the example of prudent individuals, first to look to their resources, and then to regulate their expenditure according to their means. He did not object particularly to the course pursued by the present Government, but he objected to the system which had been going on for a number of years, under all Governments, of voting the supplies before they were acquainted with the means to which it might be necessary to have recourse for making good the votes. He objected generally to the extravagant nature of the present civil and military establishments; and he thought this extravagance had arisen from no regard being had to the resources of the country at the time when those establishments were formed. The Government might think that his doctrine was tainted with the principles of Radical reform, which he was aware were not very popular in that House; but he would not hesitate to assert those principles, for he thought that no man ought to maintain opinions out of doors which he had not courage to support in that House. He found that 100,846 men were required for the army of this kingdom, 38,000 men being retained in Great Britain and Ireland. Now, he would put it to the Government whether it was necessary to keep up such a standing army? Were 38,000 men required to keep in order the people of the United Kingdom? He found that in Great Britain there was a force of 25,127 men; and, if the Government conceived that such an army was requisite in this country, he would ask what rendered it necessary? If they were compelled thus to coerce the people of Great Britain there must be something wrong in their institutions or in their legislation. He thought a great reduction might be effected in the number of troops at present maintained in Great Britain, and, if no reduction were made, he considered it a strong proof that the country was in a very discontented state. Nearly 13,000 troops, he found, were stationed in Ireland. He would ask if this was necessary, when they had in that country a constabulary force of 9,000 men, who were quite as efficient as a regular army? He begged also to call the attention of the House to the extravagant expenditure incurred for the staff, which amounted to 165,300l. He wished to know what necessity existed for keeping up such an expensive staff, which in his opinion was almost useless? The expense of the staff at headquarters, in London, was 16,800l The pay of the Duke of Wellington as Field Marshal was 16l 8s 9d. per day, or 6,000l. a year; and he must say it seemed to him wholly unnecessary that any officer should receive such pay. There were in the United Kingdom fourteen different stations of the staff, the number of which might, he thought be greatly reduced. The expenses of the Commander-in-Chief's office were 17,000l a year; those of the Adjutant-general's, 12,000l and of the Quarter-master-General's, 6,600l. He considered this an enormous expenditure of the public money; and he thought the business might be effectively conducted at a much less cost. He found in the army estimates an item of 117,787l for volunteer corps. He would put it to the House what services were rendered by these volunteer corps which entitled them to such an amount? Was there any record of their ever receiving the thanks of the House for their services, which must have been the case if those services had been important and valuable? He found in the non-effective service 198 generals, who cost the country 89,000l; the amount paid to officers retired on full pay was 64,000l, and the pensions allowed to soldiers amounted to 1,243,176l The allowance to retired servants of the military department was 41,000l In the Ordnance Department there were numerous heavy expenses, in which he thought great reductions might be effected. The effective force of the naval service for the last year cost 4,632,000l; the non-effective 1,390,000l; there being 184 admirals on the non-effective list. Then, in the civil department, he found that the salaries and other expenses of the Home-office cost the country 25,000l, the expenses of the Exchequer were 18,000l, and of the Privy Council and Board of Trade 32,000l, according to the estimates for the last year. The allowances to retired and superannuated officers in the civil department amounted to 84,000l. To one item which appeared in the estimates, that of 39,000l. for secret service money, he strongly objected. He thought, after the statements he had made last year, that some means should be taken to alter the existing system, and to reduce the extravagant expenses of our establishments. He objected to the expense of the Lord-lieutenancy of Ireland, which amounted to between 50,000l. and 60,000l. What benefit was obtained by this expenditure? Was the office of any real use? For his own part, he considered that the maintenance of the office was of no advantage to the country. He thought, if the expenses of this country were thoroughly investigated, and if its resources were properly considered, such unnecessary expenditure would not be incurred; and he would repeat, that before the House was called upon to vote supplies, they ought to have the means of ascertaining in what way the revenue of the country was to be obtained. It was peculiarly necessary at the present time, when the country was in such a state of extreme distress, that they should not recklessly vote away the public money. With regard to superannuated allowances, he thought that public officers ought to receive a sufficient compensation for their services, and that when those services were no longer required, they should have no further claim upon the country. He was well aware that reductions could not be at once effected in these establishments, but he considered that more economical plans ought in future to be adopted. He asked the House to consider the sufferings of the people; they were bound to do so; and to think of methods of relieving, instead of aggravating, the burdens under which the country groaned. He wanted to know whether the Government had any intention of relieving the people from the burden of the Income-tax, or, if not, whether they had any of relieving the great body of the community from the pressure of indirect taxation? The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving, as an amendment,— That at the present period of extended distress, it is the duty of the House to consider the means of lightening the pressure of taxation on the people, by reducing to the greatest practicable extent the expenses" of the military, as well as of the civil establishments of the country; that therefore it is expedient, that the voting of any supplies should be postponed till the estimates of the whole expenditure and the means to meet that expenditure be first furnished to the House.

Mr. W. Williams

remarked on the little attention paid by the House to the duty of voting the public money. 6,000,000l. was about to be voted, and there were not sixty Members present. He must beg the attention of the Secretary at War to two or three particulars. The number of men proposed to be voted in the estimates was 129,481. In addition there were the Sappers and Miners, the Artillery, the Horse Artillery, the Marines on shore, and the Yeomanry Cavalry, making together a force active and effective for public service of 160,989 men. In addition still there were 20,000 policemen, 9,000 of whom were employed in Ireland, being equipped in all respects regularly like soldiers. He had lately travelled in Ireland, and when he saw that force in various parts of the country, he could not believe that a more effective force was to be found in any country. They were in all respects equal to soldiers, and from the corporal up to the Commander-in-Chief they had officers answering to every military grade, only under different names. "[No, no."] Most of the superior officers in the force had been, as he was informed, soldiers in the army. They cost more than 10,000 regular troops. Then there was the metropolitan police force of 4,390 men, all receiving public pay. The two together amounted to 13,390 men, all paid out of the taxes. This number must be added to the 160,989 men, which made altogether a military force to all intents and purposes, of 174,000 men. Then there was the police force of the counties and towns, and the militia, which, however, he set down as an ineffective force, for they could be of no use, consisting, as they did, chiefly of men who had been serving in the militia for thirty years. Then there was the half-pay, on which there were 4,600 officers, and on the half-pay of the regular army, in all, 62,535 persons; on that of the Ordnance, 8,500; and, in all, there were on the half pay 84,530 men. Many of these might be considered part of the effective force; they were liable to be called into actual service, and during the late disturbances they were called out in some places, and found to be an effective force. Altogether, then, there were 258,900 men paid, and constituting with little trouble an effective force of that amount. Of the marines on half-pay there was no return, but he took them at 6,100, calculating in the same proportion for that force as for the army. Then the county and city police force amounted to 7,000, making 272,000 men paid by this country. Where could they find a country in Europe, excepting France perhaps, that had so large an effective force? Russia could show a greater force on paper, but he questioned whether she had such an effective force as this. It was monstrous, that the maintenance of such a force should be thrown on the people in their present distress. The Government could have no feeling for the condition in which the people were placed. Members of the Government had expressed sorrow and regret at the distressed state of the working classes, but he should like to see a practical proof of their sorrow by their relieving the people from the maintenance of these establishments. He said, that it was monstrous when they came to compare the expenditure with that of former Governments. In 1822, the force maintained was 71,000 men; in 1823, it was 92,117; in 1824, it was 96,677, and the average of those three years was, speaking in round numbers, 93,000 men for the whole force of the army at home, in the colonies, and in India; while in the present year it was proposed to make the number 129,481 men, though it was true there was a memorandum on the estimates which stated that it was intended to reduce the number to 123,741 men, which was nearly 30,000 men more than the average of the years 1822, 1823, and 1824. He should be glad to hear from the Secretary at War what were the circumstances which, in the midst of profound peace, when our Indian possessions had, perhaps, not been so tranquil for a great many years, and our relations with all countries were peaceable and promising, and much more so than for several years past, he should be glad to hear, he said, what circumstances rendered this monstrous force necessary? He knew, that in 1835 the whole number of men voted for the army (including India) was 100,991, making 18,535 men less than the vote for the present year. Then the difference in the cost of the army in 1835 and the present year, was 809,000l, and he really thought, looking to the condition of the country, when the profits of manufacturers were almost entirely ceasing, when masses of workmen were unemployed, large numbers of those in work only half paid, and complaints were making by every class; except those who lived on the taxes, amongst whom he included the landowners, that this amount of force ought to be greatly reduced. From 1818 to the present time, the army was now larger than in any former year. Now, he came to the half-pay, the great pension list of the army. In 1818, just immediately after the accounts of the war were settled, the half-pay and pensions amounted to 2,682,000l.; this year that item was 2,228,000l., making a reduction, after twenty-five years of peace, of only 454,000l. It was perfectly monstrous to maintain such a number of individuals in a state of idleness; he would venture to say, that the majority of them were much better able to work than many of those who were obliged from the produce of their work to pay them their pensions. He should feel it his duty, after the Speaker left the chair, to propose a reduction in the vote, and he hoped the hon. Secretary at War would then be able to tell him why it was that the estimate was set at so many more men than the average of 1822, 1823, and 1824, and why it was 13,800 more than in 1834?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

hoped the hon. Gentlemen would not think him guilty of disrespect if he did not enter into the different matters of which they had treated. In committee, his right hon. Friend, the Secretary at War would be prepared to give every information they could require. On each separate vote, every gentleman would have an opportunity of stating his views, and obtaining any information he might ask. The hon. Gentleman who spoke last, laboured under an error as to the amount of force which could be strictly called military in this country. All he should say at present was, that her Majesty's Government had done all in their power to keep down the estimates within the lowest possible dimensions.

Mr. Hume

said, that no man in the House would deny that it was their duty to effect the greatest, possible reductions in the estimates consistently with the public service; and the question now was, whether, previous to voting the supplies, the House should have information from the Ministers whether any new taxes were to be imposed, or whether any old ones were to be removed? Let it be remembered, that if the number of the army and navy had not been increased, the necessity for the Income-tax would not have arisen. The question was, did the House wish the Income-tax to be removed or not? If so, they must strike off part of the expenditure. During the five years of Lord Grey's administration, something had every year been taken off from the taxation. During the last five years, we had been getting into debt spending annually more than our income, and it was now high time to commence the work of reduction. He should regret if the House rejected a motion calculated to give so much satisfaction to the country, and for which he should certainly vote.

General Johnson

considered the motion an exceedingly reasonable one. Seeing that the wars in China and India had been brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and the troubles in Canada settled, it was but reasonable to expect that a considerable reduction should take place in the army list. It was desirable before moving the estimates, to see what the expenditure of the country was. The House had been engaged five nights in discussing the distress of the country, which was admitted on all hands, and nobody had adverted to what was the real cause of that distress-— namely, taxation. It was no use to shift the burden from agriculture to manufactures, and from manufactures again to agricultural produce; for without a large reduction of taxation no permanent relief could be afforded. If the motion went to a division, he should certainly vote for it.

Captain Polhill

considered that the wars in which the country had been lately engaged, must necessarily have entailed a very considerable expense, and we could not attempt an immediate reduction in our establishments to any extent. The distress which existed in the country was mainly owing to the extent of our population, which from 1801 to 1841 had increased at the rate of 75 per cent, and at the same ratio would be doubled in the next nine years. The increase of machinery also had in a very great measure contributed to increase the distress by superseding human labour.

The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question. Ayes 62; Noes 15;—Majority 47.

List of the AYES.
A'Court, Capt. Jermyn, Earl
Arkwright, G. Kemble, H.
Baird, W. Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.
Baring, hon. W. B. Knight, H. G.
Bateson, R. Lygon, hon. Gen.
Boldero, H. G. Manners, Lord J.
Botfield, B. Masterman, J.
Bunbury, T. Meynell, Capt.
Chetwode, Sir J. Morgan, O.
Clerk, Sir G. Neeld, J.
Clive, hon. R. H. Neville, It.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Nicholl, rt. hon. J.
Egerton, W. T. Norreys, Lord
Fitzroy, Capt. Packe, C. W.
Flower, Sir J. Peel, J.
Forbes, W. Polhill, F.
Fox, S. L. Rashleigh, W.
Gaskell, J. Milnes Round, J.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E. Sibthorp, Col.
Gordon, hon. Capt. Somerset, Lord G.
Goulburn, rt. hn. H. Stewart, J.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Sutton, hon. H. M.
Greene, T. Tennent, Jas. E.
Grimsditch, T. Thompson, Mr. Ald.
Hale, R. B. Trench, Sir F. W.
Hamilton, W. J. Trotter, J.
Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H. Waddington, H. S.
Hardy, J. Wood, Col.
Hepburn, Sir T. B. Young, J.
Herbert, hon. S.
Hope, hon. C. TELLERS
Hope, G. W. Fremantle, Sir T.
Hughes, W. B. Baring, H.
List of the NOES.
Aldam, W. Browne, hon. W.
Blake, M. J. Busfeild, W.
Blake, Sir V. Cobden, R.
Blewitt, R. J. Fielden, J.
Brotherton, J. Johnson, Gen.
Marsland, H. Williams, W.
Pechell, Capt. TELLERS.
Thornely, T. Hume, J.
Turner, E. Crawford, W. S.

House in committee.