HC Deb 22 March 1842 vol 61 cc1092-108
Lord Stanley,

in rising to propose the committees of which he had given notice, said that, at that hour, he should be unwilling to trespass at any unusual length upon the indulgence of the House, were it not that the situation which he had the honour to hold in her Majesty's Government, coupled with the fact of his proposing two committees, rendered it necessary that he should say a few words with reference to the object which he had in view. He would, however, comprise the double object in one address, and in doing so, he would endeavour to be as brief as the important nature of the subject to which he was about to call the attention of the House would permit. Though he would have to advert to several official documents which, as connected with the subject, were of very great importance, he could not hope to add any additional at- tractions by touching upon topics of a local nature in partaking of the excitement of controversial interest. He would compress what he had to say into as short a space as was consistent with the consideration of a subject so highly important to the interests of the empire. Considering how deeply he was interested in the subject, and what anxiety he must have felt when returning to the same situation which he held nine years ago, as to the result of the great experiment in which he took so active a part, the House, he was sure, would grant him some little indulgence. As regarded that result, he was happy to be able to state, that the emancipation of the negro population of the West Indies had, in the benefits which were de. rived from it, exceeded the most sanguine expectations of the most ardent advocates of the measure. In every one of the islands the physical condition and prosperity of the labouring classes had reached to an extent far greater than had been anticipated; and, what was still more gratifying, the improvement in their physical condition was accompanied by a corresponding improvement in their social and moral habits. Religious instruction had produced its anticipated effects, inducing greater purity in domestic life, and creating a stronger desire for education. This he considered to be a result infinitely more important than any improvement in their physical condition. To show that he did not exaggerate the vast improvement which had taken place in the habits and conditions of the West-Indian labourers, he would read to the House an extract from an official document which he had a short time since addressed to a foreign power, in answer to a statement in which the great experiment of emancipation was alluded to as having proved a failure. The words were these:— It will be found, that the British emancipation took place without the occurrence of a single instance of tumult or disturbance; that the joy of the negroes on the 1st of August, 1838, was orderly, sober, and religious; that since emancipation, the negroes have been thriving and contented; that they have varied their manner of living, and multiplied their comforts and enjoyments; that their offences against the laws have become more and more light and unfrequent; that their morals have improved; that marriage has become more and more substituted for concubinage; that they are eager for education, rapidly advancing in knowledge, and powerfully influenced by the ministers of religion. Such are amongst the results of emancipation which are plain and indisputable, and these results constitute in the estimation of her Majesty's Government and the people of England the complete success of the British emancipation in so far as relates to the primary and paramount objects of that act. He would not weary the House with reading many extracts, but he considered that he could more easily bring the subject under the consideration of the House, by adverting to the statements of persons in authority in the islands, than by addressing to it any loose observations of his own. Although there could be no doubt that the several islands varied in the degree of prosperity, which each had acquired by the measure of emancipation, as, for example, the prosperity must be different where the population was thin, and the soil new from that of those islands where the population was more dense, and the soil in longer cultivation, still the advantages were felt more or less in every part of the colony. From this general statement he excluded the Mauritius, confining himself altogether to the West Indies, and principally to Jamaica and Demerara. Of the improvement which had taken place, an extract from Sir C. Metcalfe's despatch of the 30th of March, 1840, spoke as follows:— The thriving condition of the peasantry is very striking and gratifying. I do not suppose that any peasantry in the world have so many comforts, or so much independence and enjoyment. Their behaviour is peaceable, and in some respects admirable. They are fond of attending divine service, and are to be seen on the Lord's day thronging to their respective churches and chapels, dressed in good clothes, and many of them riding on horseback. They send their children to school, and pay for their schooling. They subscribe for the erection of churches and chapels; and in the Baptist communities they not only provide the whole of the religious establishment, but by the amount of their contributions afford to their ministers a very respectable support. Marriage is general among the people; their morals are, I understand, much improved, and their sobriety is remarkable. I am very happy to add, that in most respects, they appear to deserve their good fortune: they are, I understand, generally orderly, sober, free from crime, much improved in their moral habits, constant in the attendance at public worship, solicitous for the education of their children, and willing to pay the requisite expense. The last report from Sir C. Metcalfe was dated November 1, 1841, a despatch which he had received with great regret because it contained the resignation of that Government which that officer had so ably and zealously filled, and with the greater pain because that resignation was unavoidable in consequence of impaired health. This was the last testimony he bore to the character of the negro population of Jamaica:— With respect to the labouring population, formerly slaves, but now perfectly free, and more independent than the same class in other free countries, I venture to say, that in no country in the world can the labouring population be more abundantly provided with the necessaries and comforts of life, more at their ease, or more secure from oppression than in Jamaica. There was another report, from a stipendiary magistrate, dated the 30th of June, 1841:— It would appear wonderful to those whose knowledge of the physical power of the negro is only confined to his unremunerated specimens of labour during slavery and apprentice ship, how so much could have been accomplished on the small lot of land in building, planting, digging ponds, and making fences, as has been done without entailing an entire cessation of labour on the plantations of the larger proprietors. Certainly this has not been the result, and why? I humbly submit for consideration the reason: it is because his emancipation from bondage, his new hopes, his new desires, his new responsibilities, in short, his newly-born ambition stimulates him to exertions, of which those who formerly knew the 'Negro character' believed him incapable. His bodily powers, by the application of a money power, are multiplied beyond calculation. He can now labour on his own plantation, and spare time to labour on the plantation of others. To this was attached a most singular document, which showed the number in one parish, not of those who had landed possessions, but of those who had entered their names as owners of possessions liable to taxation, and stating their willingness as free men to bear their proportion of the public burdens: — I annex an official memorandum of the increase of tax-payers from 1836, to March 1841. Imperfect as the return is to show the actual number having landed possessions, it is valuable to prove the numbers who have willingly pointed out their possessions for taxation, and who are ready to bear their proportion of the public burdens and public duties;—Number of tax-payers in the parish of Manchester in the year 1836, 387; 1837, 393; 1838, 438; in the year (no taxes), 1839, not given in; 1840,1,321; 1841,1,866. The number of freeholders becoming so by the accumulations of their own industry, assessed in Jamaica, as given by Sir C. Metcalfe, were, 1838, 2,014; 1840, 7,848. He felt confident he was not wearying the House even at that late hour while stating facts so important and gratifying as these. He knew that the House of Commons, by whose liberality, by whose generous sacrifice, these effects had been brought about—a sacrifice never before paralleled in any mercantile country, nor ever made to any extent for an object so purely disinterested and of more entire benevolence—he knew the House of Commons would not think he was unduly presuming on their attention, when he stated with regard to the negro population of Jamaica and the other colonies what had been the results of their great and generous sacrifice. There was only one other colony he would instance, and that was Demerara. Here was a statement, in the first place, of the wages at present earned by the able-bodied labourer in that colony— The following may he taken as an average of the money value which the labourer enjoys upon the plantations in this colony, independent of absent days from sickness or indisposition to work—it appears pretty clear from a variety of information that the net amount of wages earned in a twelvemonth cannot be less than 23l., to which add the free use of a house valued at 100l., 10l.; the free use of provision grounds, 15l.; medicine and medical attendance, 3l.—51l. sterling. To which must likewise be added the advantage of churches and schools free of any parochial rates or other charges whatsoever. As regards the tenure upon which the labourers in general hold their houses, there are but a few solitary instances in which anything in the shape of rent has been charged; in these the agreement is, that if a labourer, not pleading sickness, which is always admissible, openly acknowledges absence from work without any excusable reason, and continues in the occupation of his house and grounds, then he is charged two bitts (or less than 9d.) per diem during such absence and occupancy. There was another statement as to the resources of the colony. In a letter ad dressed by Governor Light to Mr. Ouseley, relative to the captured Africans being sent from Rio to Jamaica, he said, The resources of this colony are so great if hands can be obtained for their development, that I ventured to express my earliest wishes to you, that you would use your influence in favour of this, the nearest and most fertile of her Majesty's colonial possessions, where wages are high, where an able-bodied man may earn a dollar per day in seven or eight hours, where houses, provision grounds, and medical attendance are afforded in addition to wages, where schools, chapels, churches, and ministers of every denomination of Christians, are within reach of the mass, and where the mass are more strictly protected in their rights than perhaps in any country in the world. What had been the consequence of this state of prosperity on the negro mind and negro habits? Had it led them, as some persons feared it would, into habits of vagrancy or idleness? Had it led them to abandon the pursuits of industry, and give up the cultivation of the soil? No such thing. He was sure he should be permitted to state one or two most satisfactory instances by which they might judge in general as to the motives which influenced the negro population. The following was an extract from a despatch, dated 18th November, 1839: — It may not be misplaced to mention here the enterprise of the lately emancipated class, six of whom have bought an abandoned sugar estate, named Northbrook, on the east coast, Demerara, for which they paid 30,000 guilders, upwards of 2,000l., two-thirds of which were in hard dollars, the remainder by a note of hand at three weeks; they are about to replant it with sugar; it is a convincing evidence of confidence in the industry of their brethren, and speaks volumes against the determined idleness of the negro, which a party here would assert; it is also a proof that a preference is shown to the cultivated parts of the colony, rather than retreat to the distant parts, where the same money would have procured three times the number of acres from the Crown. Again,—? I had the honour of mentioning the purchase of Northbrook by certain labourers, and congratulated myself at the purchase, as a proof that here at least the blessings of emancipation had early shown themselves. I stated that I was proud to find myself upheld in my objections to the schemes of the philanthropists for locating the labourers independently. I am still prouder at being able to stale to your Lordship much more important purchases by the labourers. Orange Nassau, a plantain and cotton estate, lying in the neighbourhood of Annandale and Lusignan estates, on the east coast, Demerara, has been bought by 140 or 150 of the labourers of those estates for 50,000 dollars, or nearly 11,00l. sterling. 20,000 dollars, or upwards of 4,000l., have been offered by some labourers, the number I have not yet learnt, for Betterforwachtyn, on the same coast, the bargain not yet concluded from some doubts as to the validity of the title. The same difficulty has arisen in Berbice, where an offer of 20,000 dollars has been made by some labourers for an estate on the west coast. When it is considered that the greatest part of the money has been earned since emancipation, it may be concluded that the labourers have been fairly treated. The sums offered are in ready money, and at the market price of the estates. I have the honour to report that another estate, Plantation Friendship, has been purchased by certain labourers on the east coast, county Demerara, belonging to, or rather working on, Plantations Enterprise, Bladen Hall, Annandale, Lusignan, Enmore, for the sum of 80,000 dollars, or 16,000l. sterling, of which 35,000 dollars were paid down, 5,000 more to be paid in one month, the rest to be on mortgage until the whole number of shareholders should have paid their quota. 100 or 110 out of the 200 have already paid their amount of contribution, each 400 dollars, and one man, a head man of one of the estates, who appears, from keeping his horse and gig, to have been richer than any of the others, has contributed 2,000 dollars. Plantation Friendship was originally a cotton and plantation estate, was purchased not many years ago for 5,000l. or 6,000l. sterling; three years ago it was sold for 10,000l.; it now has been sold for 16,000l. sterling to emancipated slaves. There can be little doubt that the desire for independence will be succeeded by the desire for wealth, and the same spirit which has limited hitherto the labourers to the purchase of property whose productions are for local wants alone, will lead them to the purchase of estates on which the staple commodities for export are grown and cultivated.—I have, &c,

"HENRY LIGHT."

"The Right Hon. Lord Stanley."

What he wished to impress upon the House was, that the result of emancipation undoubtedly had been, in the first instance, that very large, exorbitant wages were obtained by the negro labourers; but they were ambitious to labour for the purpose of earning those wages, and having earned, they were not disposed to squander them in indulgence; they were in fact thrifty and frugal, accumulating property, and honestly and industriously cultivating it. He could multiply instances of this description, but he would not run the risk of wearying the House. There was another point, however, the conduct of the labourers, on which he wished to say a few words. On the 1st of August, 1840, Governor Light wrote thus:—

"Although I did not think it necessary to make this anniversary a day of thanksgiving, yet I find that many of the churches and chapels in the colony are opened for that purpose. It is most satisfactory to report the orderly conduct of the working classes in this populous town on the eve of this day; and that although everywhere disposed to celebrate it with feasting and merriment, the remembrance of their past state is sunk in their present enjoyment of freedom."

There was a still later account:—

"It is very gratifying to be able to report the extraordinary change I have observed in the bearing and habits of the Creole population, since the 1st of August, 1838, in which month I visited Essequibo for the first time. In the following year I repeated my visit. At those periods there was hardly a house standing unconnected with the estates. Houses and stores are now numerous from the eastern to the western points of the coast. Land has either been leased or offered for sale and lease or sold, on eighteen properties, to merchants, mechanics, or labourers, in small lots varying from one-third of an acre to one-half. On these the labourer erects a comfortable cottage, the mechanic a more convenient house, the merchant a dwelling, uniting shop and abode. A short time antecedent to the death of the late Governor, Sir Carmichael Smyth, he gave the name of William's-town, in honour of his late Majesty, to an independent settlement projected by the proprietor of Plantation Aberdeen. On my first visit to Essequibo this was in its infancy, but, although the land was only leased for twenty-one years in lots of one-third of an acre, at very high prices, yet it has now become a respectable village, having six or seven shops or stores, neat residences, cottages, Episcopal chapel for 400 people, and a school; and, since the enactment of the rum ordinance, is not without its full share of liquor retail shops. Had the lots of land been freehold, William's-town would have been much larger than it now is, or is likely to become. A new settlement has been established three miles eastward towards the Essequibo, with better land, larger lots, and smaller prices for freehold than for leasehold at William's-town; it has been eagerly sought by the labourers."

These statements showed, he thought, this, that as far as the labourers were concerned in Jamaica and Demerara, and though varying in degree, they were a sample of the whole of our colonies, the experiment had been not only successful in placing them in a situation of great physical enjoyment beyond the anticipations of their boldest friends, but they also proved, that they had learned to turn to advantage their newly-acquired gift of freedom in accumulating property, the product of their industry, and cultivating habits worthy of freemen. If he wanted another proof of this, he had it ready to his hand in the amount of exports to the West Indies from this country, during the period of apprenticeship subsequent to complete emancipation. The average value of the exports from this country to the West-India colonies in the six years preceding emancipation was 2,783,000l. The average during the four years of the apprenticeship, 1835 to 1838, was 3,573,000l. The amount, during the first year of freedom, 1839, was 4,002,000l., and during the second year of freedom, the amount was 3,492,734l. He would not trouble the House with further statements with respect to the number of schools and chapels which had been built. He hoped he had said enough to indicate to the House the social condition of the negroes, and if that were the only part of the subject to which he felt it necessary to call their attention, however gratifying the statement might be to him, from the part he had taken in this question, he certainly should not be entitled to call for a select committee to investigate the circumstances connected with the agricultural and rural population of the West Indies. But, notwithstanding this great prosperity and improvement, to which he was not insensible, having been the instrument to ask for that vote by which this great experiment had been put in progress, he could not shut his eyes to the fact, that although the paramount object of emancipation had been fully realized, in the condition and prosperity of the negro population, the West-India planters were now suffering from the very circumstances he had before alluded to, serious loss and injury, and it was with a view to ascertain the causes and the measures which should be resorted to for the mitigation of these evils, that he proposed a select committee. When he looked to the average quantity of sugar imported into the United Kingdom from the West Indies, he found, that during the six years preceding the apprenticeship it was 3,905,034 cwt.; that during the four years of apprenticeship, it fell to 3,486,225 cwt.; that during the first year of freedom, 1839, it fell to 2,824,106 cwt.; and that during the second year of freedom, 1840, it fell to 2,210,226 cwt. If the House would permit him to state this case fully and fairly, they would find, that the deficiency of the quantity had been made up by the increased value of the produce in the different intervals. For instance, the average value of sugar for the six years preceding the apprenticeship was 5,320,02l.; and that for the four years of the apprenticeship it was 6,217,801l. In the first year of freedom the amount was 5,530,000l., and in the next year 5,424,000l.; and although in this year there would be a large reduction, still there would be a fair remuneration for what was lost by the diminution of produce. Consequently, the planters had not sustained any very serious diminution of their income from this cause, but they had suffered a very serious and ruinous expense in the cultivation of their estates from the want and scarcity of labour—from the abstraction of labour in consequence of the industrious application of the labourers to their own farms, and from their having become possessors of property instead of mere cultivators of the soil. The result of this was, that the planters were compelled to pay exorbitant and enormous wages, and from the information he had received, he believed, that in several of the colonies the rate of wages and the expenses of cultivation were so extravagant that unless some remedy could be provided it would be impossible for the owners to continue to cultivate many of the estates. He had some reports on the subject from Trinidad, where a committee of planters had collected evidence as to the result of the enormous expenses incurred in the cultivation of estates. Another committee had been appointed on the same subject in Demerara, and he must say, that from those reports it appeared impossible for cultivation to be carried on if they contained statements at all approximating to truth. He had a report of 62 sugar estates, from the 1st of January to the 31st of October, 1841, in which period the expenditure was $1,091,000, while the return was $217,000, making a gross loss upon the whole estates of $874,000, and to December, the same committee stated the expense to be $1,295,000, and the total revenue $312,000, the loss being $983,000. He did not, of course, pretend to vouch for the entire accuracy of these statements, but he could only say they were founded on the report of a committee which had investigated the subject very carefully, and had directed their inquiries into the estates of those parties who had hitherto carried on their plantations with success and prosperity. Governor Light, whose merits or defects, be they what they might, could not be complained of as being unduly interested in favour of the planters, had forwarded a statement, made, as he described, by a gentleman of moderate opinions, and well disposed to the Government, whose name he deemed proper to withhold, with respect to estates, described as 1, 2, 3, and 4. He said the expense was ruinous, and certainly if all estates were in the same predicament, the condition of the planters must be very critical. This was a statement with respect to four of the best estates in Demerara, and according to the statement of the gentleman whose name he did not know, but who was a gentleman of moderate opinions, the result on one estate was altogether an excess of revenue over the expenditure of $5,891. On the other estates, there had been an actual loss; and the gross profit of the four estates, which formerly produced 1,100 or 1,200 hogsheads of sugar per annum, was $5,060. These were the statements which had been made, and which were well deserving the attention of a committee. These were questions of vast importance, and deserved to be considered dispassionately, calmly, and deliberately, as he trusted they would be by any committee that sat to consider them. The planters were naturally anxious for the application of a remedy, and it appeared quite clear, that there were two, and two only, by which the cultivation of these estates could be profitably carried on. First, by the reduction of the expense of cultivation by means of a better mode of management. This subject he was naturally anxious that a committee should especially inquire into; and the other practicable remedy consisted in increasing the population by a large amount of immigration, and by the effect of competition decreasing the amount of wages. He would not enter into details with respect to the first of these remedies; but there were various points involved in it well worthy the consideration of a committee. For example, a committee might inquire whether it were not practicable to introduce a system more assimilated to our English plan, by placing the labourers more in the condition of tenants, giving them an interest joint and inseparable from the landlord, and making them share in the amount of produce. He knew the practical difficulties connected with the introduction of such a system; but he desired the matter to be investigated, and practical men to be examined respecting it. With regard to immigration, he believed that details had been laid before the House, so far as it had been carried into effect in the West-Indian colonies, in respect to the result on the persons who had been induced to immigrate. With respect to individuals of African descent, whether coming from the coast of Africa or the United States, he believed the result had been most satisfactory. There had been little disease among them; nothing of suffering, and very little of mortality: and with regard to all of African descent immigration had been carried on satisfactorily, and the persons were contented with their condition. He wished he could say the same with respect to the immigrants of European descent but it was right for him to state publicly that, as far as he was able to judge, immigration of Europeans into the colonies of Jamaica or Demerara, and particularly those parts to which the immigrants resorted—namely, the low lands of the colonies,—was accompanied with suffering and fatal effects. In Jamaica, so sensible was the Legislature of distress and mortality produced among the immigrants, that much as they desired to obtain them, yet they passed a resolution discouraging on the part of the colonies any immigration at the expense of the colony from the British isles or any part of Europe. The immigration from the Portuguese islands into Demerara was also accompanied in the first instance by a great degree of suffering and mortality—a mortality not less than 7 or 10 per cent. on the number; and he thought it his duty to lay a statement of this fact and all information before the Portuguese government. But of late the mortality amongst them had been but very trifling, and the recent accounts were much more satisfactory. It was from the coast of Africa that the colonists would look for the largest supply of immigrants; but he should not be dealing fairly with the House if he did not state that there were very great objections in the way of an unlimited immigration of labourers from Africa. It was likely to lead to great abuse; to create a suspicion towards this country, and give room for jealousy amongst foreign powers; and though he believed that perfectly free emigration from Africa to the American colonies would place the immigrant in more favourable circumstances than in his own country, and if the stream were kept up and he were allowed to return to the coast of Africa, no step could, in his opinion, be taken more likely to conduce to the interests of humanity, or to extend civilization among the tribes upon the coast of Africa, yet that was a subject to be touched with the greatest care. For that purpose he must move for another committee, whose inquiries would be simultaneous with the inquiries into the state of agriculture in the West Indies. He wished for a committee to inquire into the state of our settlements on the western coast of Africa, especially with reference to their present relations with the neighbouring native tribes. Exclusive of Sierra Leone and Gambia, the House was aware that this country possessed along the Gold Coast a number of detached settlements. Those settlements were managed exclusively by a committee of merchants, who administered what was stated to be British law; though he was sorry to say that it was hardly to be called such, for there was neither judge, nor he believed any settled authority; it was rather rudely administered; but still it was said to be British law. Around all those settlements were native tribes, governed, or he ought rather to say, influenced by the merchants residing there; and it was of the greatest importance that they should well consider the precise relation, the real relation, in which we stood with regard to those suffering tribes. There was no doubt that by a means of arbitration we administered a certain part of our British law from those settlements; and under the law so administered sentences were passed, persons were imprisoned, and debts were recovered; and there was a system of law; except as to the legality of the manner in which they were administered. That might be, and possibly it was a necessary evil, but still it was an evil to leave those native tribes in doubt as to their precise relations to us, and also as to our own real power over them, that naturally tended to abuse; and there was no limit to encroachment, for the law placed none except that of discretion. If those settlements, each of which was about one square mile in extent, were made ports for emigration from the coast of Africa to the West Indies, one of two things would follow. Most of those native tribes were in a state of domestic slavery. He did not mean to say that all were so; but he should like to ascertain which of the tribes were free; for in the great majority domestic slavery prevailed. But one of two things would follow—either immigration would consist of runaway slaves, with whom, when once beyond our limits, we had no right whatever to interfere, or, on the other hand, the result would be, that under the name of a proposition to immigrate to the colonies for the purpose of furnishing free-labour to the colonists, those colonists would begin to enter into a traffic with the chiefs of the tribes for the immigration of their subjects for a sum of money; in other words, that they would buy the subjects of those chiefs for money, and there would be a strong suspicion that we were commencing a new slave-trade on the coast of Africa. He did not say that those were obstacles not to be surmounted, but if they could not surmount them, it was their bounden duty to prevent a new slave-trade; and if they could surmount them, let them distinctly declare to the world the mode with which they intended emigration from Africa to be conducted and the protection to be thrown around the natives. They might then be justified in getting in the West Indies that which they desired to obtain, namely, free emigration from certain ports on the coast of Africa. If they could do that, he did not hesitate to say, that such immigration upon the principles of entire freedom would not only be productive of benefit to the subjects of that immigration, but in the result would tend to the interests of civilization, humanity, and Christianity, throughout the African coast. He sincerely thanked the House for the attention with which they had listened to him on details which he knew must have been tedious, upon a subject which at least, however he might have brought it before the House, was deserving of their serious attention. He hoped that in the course of his observations to the House he had said nothing offensive to the feelings of persons on one side or the other. He had endeavoured to state the case as it appeared to him on a careful perusal of official documents and without exaggeration: and if the House were anxious to enter into any discussion upon the subject, he hoped they would observe an absence from all prejudice and party feeling, and that the two questions might meet in committee with a full, free, and deliberate consideration. The noble Lord concluded by moving for a

"Select committee to inquire into the state of the different West-India colonies, in reference to the existing relations between employers and labourers, the rate of wages, the supply of labour, the system and expense of cultivation, and the general state of their rural and agricultural economy."
Dr. Bowring

said, the speech of the noble Lord gave him great satisfaction; but he could wish the east as well as the west coast of Africa to be included in the inquiry. This was a part well entitled to the consideration of the Government; and, considering that the blacks preponderated over the whites in the West-India colonies, he was anxious to have their interests properly protected. He trusted also, that the noble Lord would allow the committee to extend its inquiries into the failure of the late Niger expedition.

Mr. V. Smith

expressed his gratification at the very able statement which had been made by the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, seeing that his name was identified with the working of that great experiment which had proved so successful. At the same time, he (Mr. V. Smith) could not help feeling the great difficulties which the committee would have to encounter in the course of their inquiry. The noble Lord proposed, through this committee, to inquire into the state of the different West India colonies, in reference to the existing relations between employers and labourers, the rate of wages, the supply of labour, the system and expense of cultivation, and the general state of their rural and agricultural economy. From the statement made by the noble Lord of the prosperity of the labouring population in these colonies, it appeared, that they were not only prosperous, but were making purchases for themselves. Now, the task which would devolve upon the committee was of a very delicate character, and they must take great care not to interrupt, by any suggestions they might make, that good feeling and harmony which now existed as between the labourers and the employers. And, indeed, the difficulty of this question was increased by the union of such various subjects for the consideration of a committee. He would suggest to the noble Lord whether it would not be advisable to give a power of conference between the two committees as to the introduction of fret labourers. But the most interesting inquiry would be, whether they would be able to produce anything upon which the House could legislate or not, though no doubt the mass of evidence they would collect would be very valuable. Perhaps it would be right, that the noble Lord should mention the course of inquiry to be taken by the committees, particularly those on the west coast of Africa. He hoped the noble Lord would not consent to the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, that one committee should extend its inquiries into the causes of. the failure of the Niger expedition. The House was probably aware, that a very I valuable report on the state of the British settlements in Western Africa had lately been made by Dr. Madden, a gentleman whose name was associated with the abolition of slavery, and who had been sent out to inquire into the present condition of those territories. He was aware the re port was of a very confidential nature, but perhaps he was not asking too much in suggesting that the noble Lord might lay such parts of it as he deemed advisable before the committee. He begged leave to thank the noble Lord for instituting this inquiry, which would have, he trusted, important results.

Mr. Mangles

wished to know if the noble Lord would have any objection to insert the words "means of affording effectual protection, and of insuring the rights of free agency."

Lord Stanley

thought the terms of his motion extensive enough to cover the points to which the hon. Gentleman wished to include.

Mr. Wakley

expected to gel no information from the committee relative to the western coast of Africa, as he thought they were already in possession of all the information that could be got. With respect to the second committee, for inquiry into the West Indies, he could not see the object which the noble Lord proposed to himself, and his speech threw no light upon it. The noble Lord's speech exhibited such a happy state of things among the negro population, that it was most undesirable any interference should take place. Yet it seemed there was to be a committee to inquire into the matters mentioned in the motion. He was apprehensive, that this interference was not one of favour to the emancipated labourers. Twenty millions had already been paid to the proprietors of the soil in the West Indies, as a compensation for their loss by the emancipation of the negroes. The noble Lord showed that the negroes themselves were undergoing the change and improvement which he had anticipated in his able address on the subject in 1833. But what could they expect from this movement? Many persons would be apprehensive that these labourers, in their improved condition would be completely swamped by the tide of emigration from Africa to the West-Indies. He was apprehensive that the free labourers would be reduced to a state of privation and distress, by the competition of the immigrants who would work for less wages. Analogous results had taken place in England, only from the change from the South to the North of England. He feared, that every obstacle would be thrown in the way of emigrants returning to Africa if they wished it. He was really apprehensive that in this matter a pressure had been put on the noble Lord by the planters; he hoped, however, he would rather look to the condition of the emancipated negroes, than to the interests of the planters who had already been paid twenty millions.

Mr. Hull

said, his hon. Friend had here, he thought, been led away by his popular feelings. He approved of the proposal of the noble Lord, and could state this, that the labourers in the West-Indian colonies were many of them considerable owners of land.—Motion agreed to.

Lord Stanley

then moved for a "select committee to inquire into the state of the British possessions on the west coast of Africa, more especially with reference to their present relations with the neighbouring native tribes."—Motion agreed to.